Every year people think that the list that won Worlds is amazing or almost unbeatable, but winning worlds has more to do with the winning player and the opponents than the list itself.

Sure, you want a good list, but you can't say that "Dengaroo won Worlds" unless you also want to say "Dengaroo lost Worlds."

There were multiple players running a Dengaroo list at Worlds ... and all but one of them got knocked out by other players with other lists before the championship match.

This is a good point. How many Dengaroo lists played at Worlds, how many losses did they suffer, and what lists caused those losses.

One Dengaroo defied the odds to take the title, the rest fell by the wayside, just like everyone else.

3 Dengaroos made the top 16 as did 4 Palp+Ace+Defender. The top 16 was pretty varied this year but Dengaroo and /x7 Defenders were definitely well represented.

M9-G8 is pretty handy against Dengar since once you have locked, you can force him to reroll a red on every attack. Glitterstim, Countermeasures and Manny reduce the effect a bit but you will still convert some hits to blanks and you can get rid of a few crits too with luck. Shame nothing with an Astromech slot can take LRS.

My vote is for this list ... control, murder, and Manaroo hunting speed on both your ships.

99pts

Miranda Doni (43)
K-Wing (29), Twin Laser Turret (6), Extra Munitions (2), Sabine Wren (2), Conner Net (4)

Rey (56)
YT-1300 (45), Veteran Instincts (1), Kanan Jarrus (3), Finn (5), Millennium Falcon (Segnor's Loop Version) (1), Smuggling Compartment (0), Burnout Slam (1)

I would counter Dengaroo with Dengaroo.

So, I'm not dissing Dengaroo, but it's a list with a gaping weakness: Manaroo. Killing her guts the list.

The Worlds was decided, I think, by fatigue and not fairness. There were some downright bad moves on the part of the runner-up which decided the match far too soon. I'm not saying that Corran/Miranda is a good matchup against Dengar, but it should have been a lot closer than that.

Can I chime in with something that I think is really huge and should be discussed? (Please don't ignore me, oh please!)

Two ship lists recently have a lot a lot of upgrades. Their danger zones are becoming harder and harder to remember correctly even on the first game of a normal day, let alone day3, 18 games in.

There's actually a considerable number of different danger zones: range0 (bumping), vs R1, vs R3 etc. In arc vs out of arc, this is most apparent with the Ghost, which has an impossibly large number of factors to consider. I've had many a game where I expect to be shot to death, only to be informed of my opponent he's passing attack cuz I actually forgot he can't do "X attack" in that particular arc/angle/range whatever.

I think the runner-ups list also is 2 ships with a lot of upgrades, but I'm finding that the large ship 2 ship lists have a lot more things you have to remember.

Is this a problem for the game? One reason why nobody quite got as irritated at the swarm as we did about 2ship wave5 meta was first you had to buy 7 ties, and you had to be GOOD at flying 7 ties. This meant a lot of practice and a lot of mental exercise over 3 very long days. comparably, 2 ship list have the least to remember for the player, and the most to remember for the opposer.

I'm finding it to be a very annoying trend to be playing against, even if at times, the 2ship list in question isn't actually OP.

Can I chime in with something that I think is really huge and should be discussed? (Please don't ignore me, oh please!)

Two ship lists recently have a lot a lot of upgrades. Their danger zones are becoming harder and harder to remember correctly even on the first game of a normal day, let alone day3, 18 games in.

There's actually a considerable number of different danger zones: range0 (bumping), vs R1, vs R3 etc. In arc vs out of arc, this is most apparent with the Ghost, which has an impossibly large number of factors to consider. I've had many a game where I expect to be shot to death, only to be informed of my opponent he's passing attack cuz I actually forgot he can't do "X attack" in that particular arc/angle/range whatever.

I think the runner-ups list also is 2 ships with a lot of upgrades, but I'm finding that the large ship 2 ship lists have a lot more things you have to remember.

Is this a problem for the game? One reason why nobody quite got as irritated at the swarm as we did about 2ship wave5 meta was first you had to buy 7 ties, and you had to be GOOD at flying 7 ties. This meant a lot of practice and a lot of mental exercise over 3 very long days. comparably, 2 ship list have the least to remember for the player, and the most to remember for the opposer.

I'm finding it to be a very annoying trend to be playing against, even if at times, the 2ship list in question isn't actually OP.

I don't find this to be a problem I have, but different people and different groups struggle with different things.

I've played against Dengaroo quite a lot, and I don't think it is mentally exhausting to play against. Sometimes it can be emotionally exhausting, but there isn't much you can to about that. I think the biggest take-away I've seen from this thread so far is that this is a solid list with a clear "best method" to kill it: Take out Manaroo first. Because of that, the game is purely on tactics and strategy. Especially in deployment and approach. THIS is where I think the fatigue really sets in, because I have to be patient and decisive to get that opportunity to tank Dengar's attacks and trap Manaroo. If you're tired, you might not be patient enough to trap Manaroo, or you might take a poor path to engage and get smashed by Dengar. That's where the list's fatigue power kicks in.

I was really surprised that Brobots did not make a large comeback this year. I was really expecting it.

In over a dozen matchups against Dengaroo, against various players, i have lost once with my b/c+VI/HLC/FCS bots list.

Having said that, i know i would have lost to this years winner, because quite frankly, it takes talent beyond what i possess to win worlds with any list, but i think Bots could have done very well this year if more were flown. Very well.

Juke Vessery, PtL Ryad, PalpShuttle. Still haven't come close to losing a game against Dengaroo with it. Actually haven't even seen it come close to losing a game against Dengaroo. Even in the Worlds top 16 where the pilot hadn't played the matchup before.

This was a soft counter, but served me extremely well through a six-night League:

OL - Juke, Comm Relay

Vessery - Juke, x7

Jendon - Title, Palp

Against Dengaroo, whole list would joust -- specifically, Omega Leader & Jendon stay in range one of each other. This way, if Dengar pops countermeasures, Jendon can pass his TL to Omega Leader (this requires the opponent to have initiative). Also, Dengar might very well save his return fire for the Shuttle... Which I personally don't take a shot with, unless the shot is likely to kill Dengar.

I'm a big fan of Omega Leader and Jendon pairing -- OL always enters combat with TL, Focus, and Evade, regardless of opponents PS (another important factor against Dengar).

I don't know how much I'll go forward with it, due to TLTs being so popular, but I may still have it hit the table, assuming Dengaroo really does take off more now.

Every year people think that the list that won Worlds is amazing or almost unbeatable, but winning worlds has more to do with the winning player and the opponents than the list itself.

Sure, you want a good list, but you can't say that "Dengaroo won Worlds" unless you also want to say "Dengaroo lost Worlds."

There were multiple players running a Dengaroo list at Worlds ... and all but one of them got knocked out by other players with other lists before the championship match.

Dengaroo is a strong list, but so were the lists that previously won Worlds.

Long story short, asking for "anti-Dengaroo" lists will result in 100+ different lists ... any one of which might defeat an opponent running Dengaroo.

The trick to defeating any list is to understand the weaknesses of the ships, abilities, and tactics ... then use whatever list you want to exploit those weaknesses.

Here is the thing, if Dengaroo won worlds or not, it is one of the better list in the game. How many Anti-Palp Aces threads do we have? That list has yet to win worlds. It is a good thing exploring tactics and how people employ them. I don't think anyone is say Dangroo is unbeatable, but a open discussion about a popular list is good, that also happened to win worlds.

4 x

GSP, Outmaneuver, Juke, Title, Refit, Autothrusters.

Add patience and a little luck on the dice.

TLT-Kanan with tactician and Biggs destroys Dengaroo, and can even win a joust if you are clever enough. It seems strange to me that more people does not play that list. Its been my go to squad for a good while now, and seems strong against most lists.

Can I chime in with something that I think is really huge and should be discussed? (Please don't ignore me, oh please!)

Two ship lists recently have a lot a lot of upgrades. Their danger zones are becoming harder and harder to remember correctly even on the first game of a normal day, let alone day3, 18 games in.

There's actually a considerable number of different danger zones: range0 (bumping), vs R1, vs R3 etc. In arc vs out of arc, this is most apparent with the Ghost, which has an impossibly large number of factors to consider. I've had many a game where I expect to be shot to death, only to be informed of my opponent he's passing attack cuz I actually forgot he can't do "X attack" in that particular arc/angle/range whatever.

I think the runner-ups list also is 2 ships with a lot of upgrades, but I'm finding that the large ship 2 ship lists have a lot more things you have to remember.

Is this a problem for the game? One reason why nobody quite got as irritated at the swarm as we did about 2ship wave5 meta was first you had to buy 7 ties, and you had to be GOOD at flying 7 ties. This meant a lot of practice and a lot of mental exercise over 3 very long days. comparably, 2 ship list have the least to remember for the player, and the most to remember for the opposer.

I'm finding it to be a very annoying trend to be playing against, even if at times, the 2ship list in question isn't actually OP.

I don't really see that it's a problem - you still have to be good with two ship lists to not have them blown to shreds. Arguably you have to be better, because it's a lot easier to focus fire on two ships than 7...

You also tend to have a lot more triggers and options to remember than the TIE swarm guy who has 3 action options on all his ships plus howlrunner and crack. I'm not denying that running a TIE swarm is probably the most mentally taxing list, which is why people don't run them as much as their tier would indicate, but it's a little off to imply that 2-ship lists with lots of upgrades don't have much to pay attention to.

4 x

GSP, Outmaneuver, Juke, Title, Refit, Autothrusters.

Add patience and a little luck on the dice.

That sounds like a tasty snack for Zuckuss. You have to spread out, and the 1 or 2 ships that Dengar gets an arc on CANNOT shoot at him, because he will just delete that ship. 3 dice, with an evade token, protecting 4 hp is not going to last more than 2 rounds of pressure from Dengar. If he shoots out of arc, you will be alright, but you're probably going to have to spend that evade token. If he gets a R1 shot you're also in trouble, look at what happened to Jake Farrel in the quarterfinals.

For me, it seems like Decimators and Ghosts are very strong against Dengar. Regen can be strong, but you have to be super careful. Countermeasures makes life really hard for low PS ordnance carriers, so you need to rely on either deadeye, or a support ship with tracers to provide the TL.

I know it's not a popular list, but I won my first match against Dengaroo with an 8 TIE swarm (Wampa, Chaser, 6APs). I sent one Academy on Manaroo blocking duty, and was able to burn down Dengar in 2-3 turns because he had inconsistent tokens. Yes, a few TIEs exploded horrifically in the process, but Dengar ate a lot of neon green lasers. Blocking is still the strongest form of control in the game, and the cheapest.

Cassian Andor crew on a YT2400 with APL is going to make life miserable for poor Mr. Dengar.

4 x

GSP, Outmaneuver, Juke, Title, Refit, Autothrusters.

Add patience and a little luck on the dice.

That sounds like a tasty snack for Zuckuss. You have to spread out, and the 1 or 2 ships that Dengar gets an arc on CANNOT shoot at him, because he will just delete that ship. 3 dice, with an evade token, protecting 4 hp is not going to last more than 2 rounds of pressure from Dengar. If he shoots out of arc, you will be alright, but you're probably going to have to spend that evade token. If he gets a R1 shot you're also in trouble, look at what happened to Jake Farrel in the quarterfinals.

For me, it seems like Decimators and Ghosts are very strong against Dengar. Regen can be strong, but you have to be super careful. Countermeasures makes life really hard for low PS ordnance carriers, so you need to rely on either deadeye, or a support ship with tracers to provide the TL.

I know it's not a popular list, but I won my first match against Dengaroo with an 8 TIE swarm (Wampa, Chaser, 6APs). I sent one Academy on Manaroo blocking duty, and was able to burn down Dengar in 2-3 turns because he had inconsistent tokens. Yes, a few TIEs exploded horrifically in the process, but Dengar ate a lot of neon green lasers. Blocking is still the strongest form of control in the game, and the cheapest.

Cassian Andor crew on a YT2400 with APL is going to make life miserable for poor Mr. Dengar.

Similarly, I've beaten Dengaroo with my Cracktor Swarm (Howl Crack, 3 Black Crack, Maarek/Adaptability/D/TBeam) before, but it requires me to fly extremely well, and the dengar player to get at least a little unlucky and not blat howlie in a single shot. It's designed to burn a JM5k in one round at range 2 at which it's pretty reliable as long as it gets all 3 Black and Maarek's shots off.

The troubel with TIE Swarms is that you have to get a little lucky to get the blocks on Manaroo and to not just have TIEs pop to Dengar's fire. Or you have to take evades on the ones facing dengar which makes their damage a lot less reliable. Dengar pops TIEs really pretty easily. AT r2 he does an average of half their HP in a single shot, at r1 even more.

Yeah, flying TIE Fighters against Dengar is like being the first tree in the forest to stop an avalanche. Those rocks will stop eventually, but you're gonna be long gone (or in a million tiny pieces) before that happens.

Cassian Andor crew on a YT2400 with APL is going to make life miserable for poor Mr. Dengar.

This is why my vote is for Eaden Vrill as a blocker. With all that stress stacking up, he will always be shooting 3+ against Dengar while not in the firing arc. Plus if you put a black market slicer on him he will be great for blocking Dengar for a possible 2 damage that is immune to Zuckuss.

You can use a Super Dash or a VI Rey to chase down Manaroo.

Cassian Andor crew on a YT2400 with APL is going to make life miserable for poor Mr. Dengar.

This is why my vote is for Eaden Vrill as a blocker. With all that stress stacking up, he will always be shooting 3+ against Dengar while not in the firing arc. Plus if you put a black market slicer on him he will be great for blocking Dengar for a possible 2 damage that is immune to Zuckuss.

You can use a Super Dash or a VI Rey to chase down Manaroo.

Why would his damage NOT be immune to Zuckuss? Zuckuss works on defence dice, and Eaden's are very much still subject to him.

Cassian Andor crew on a YT2400 with APL is going to make life miserable for poor Mr. Dengar.

This is why my vote is for Eaden Vrill as a blocker. With all that stress stacking up, he will always be shooting 3+ against Dengar while not in the firing arc. Plus if you put a black market slicer on him he will be great for blocking Dengar for a possible 2 damage that is immune to Zuckuss.

You can use a Super Dash or a VI Rey to chase down Manaroo.

Why would his damage NOT be immune to Zuckuss? Zuckuss works on defence dice, and Eaden's are very much still subject to him.

The damage is immune to Zuckuss because you're blocking Dengar and can't be shot. 1 potential damage for the APL, 1 potential damage from BMST.

Cassian Andor crew on a YT2400 with APL is going to make life miserable for poor Mr. Dengar.

This is why my vote is for Eaden Vrill as a blocker. With all that stress stacking up, he will always be shooting 3+ against Dengar while not in the firing arc. Plus if you put a black market slicer on him he will be great for blocking Dengar for a possible 2 damage that is immune to Zuckuss.

You can use a Super Dash or a VI Rey to chase down Manaroo.

Why would his damage NOT be immune to Zuckuss? Zuckuss works on defence dice, and Eaden's are very much still subject to him.

The damage is immune to Zuckuss because you're blocking Dengar and can't be shot. 1 potential damage for the APL, 1 potential damage from BMST.

Yeah, probably works OK, as long as you bring an Intel Agent as well to know where Dengar's going.

Frankly, I'm thinking that Chiraneau with VI and EU is the logical place to start if you're really having trouble with Dengaroo. You have the HP to race him, the speed to go hunting for Manaroo first, and with those two essential items you still have 49 points for two or three other ships to match with him.

I think that of any crew, I'd reach for Isard first, and she might be my only choice depending on what other ships I saw as worthwhile. She just lets you race so much better. Rebel Captive is... well, a possibility depending on how many x7s your meta has, but I'm gonna leave it off for right now. Agent Kallus is nice to get a reroll on attack dice, but is only half useful since you have no greens so I'll leave it off for right now too. That's 55 points for a bare-bones RAC with VI, EU, Isard.

I think I'd want at least three ships to eliminate variance and add more damage output. When I think of "high damage low cost" Empire ships, I reach for Zeta Leader. I waffle between Predator and Crack Shot, but I think that Crack Shot is the way to go because it's likely he's a first target and he's likely to use the Crack right away. That costs 21 points, leaving 24 for a third ship.

Doomshuttle? Yeah, pop your countermeasures against that.

55 Rear Admiral Chiraneau w/ Veteran Instincts, Ysanne Isard, Engine Upgrade

24 Omicron Group Pilot w/ Collision Detector, Darth Vader

21 Zeta Leader w/ Crack Shot

Going cheapie with a Backstabber or Mauler Mithel, or Wampa with a Targeting Computer, might work as well to upgrade RAC. But I like Zeta Leader.

RAC crew options, you have to be getting a LOT of good to not go with Gunner and either Palp or HotCoP&Vader. Palp makes his average roll at r1 hhcc. HotCoP does less reliable damage but strips tokens at high PS, and Vader does Vader, though you probably wouldn't use him much against Dengaroo, he's great against squishier targets. Palp/Gunner means the likes of Soontir need to dodge 4 hits twice or basically die.