Hi, sorry if this seems fairly obvious etc, but I'm brand new to Descent : Journey into the Dark, and recently one of the characters pulled the Vampiric Blood card, which states "You gain 1 fatigue each time you deal the killing blow to an enemy figure..."

Now, what I was wondering was this - does this card ignore the characters fatigue limit, or can they gain endless amounts of fatigue? (working on the idea that something vampiric is going to keep taking and taking and taking.)

If someone could shed some light on this for me, I'd be ever so grateful.

Thanks in advance.

maximum means exactly that.

Thanks - we weren't entirely sure because some of the cards actually say "up to your max" and this one didn't.

So because Vampiric Blood does not say "up to your maximum", you can gain fatigue over the amount stated on the character card?

No, you can never gain more than your maximum fatigue determined by what is on your hero card, plus any bonuses from skills and abilities. Vampiric Blood allows you regain fatigue, it does not increase your maximum value.

Where in the rules is it clearly stated that you can never exceed your normal fatigue limit? In principle, a specific rule (e.g. skill text) prevails over a general rule. IMHO, Vampiric Blood is not particularly powerful, so it would be OK if the skill temporarily increased fatigue over the normal limit.

Long live the blast runes!

1) The rules say that the printed value is the hero's maximum value.

2) Maximum means "the greatest quantity or amount possible, assignable, allowable, etc."

3) Nothing on Vampiric Blood overrides this rule. Failure to restate a rule in the book is not the same as stating that it doesn't apply. For "speicific vs. general" to apply, you'd actually need a specific rule to point to. there isn't one in this case.

It's clear that Vampiric Blood is limited to your maximum fatigue.

page 15 under Rest:

A hero’s maximum fatigue value is the starting value printed on his hero sheet, plus any additional fatigue granted by skills and abilities.

The "additional fatigue granted by skills and abilites" refers to skills and abilities such as Skilled that increase your max fatigue. There are several skills and abilities that allow you regain fatigue when using them, but you are always limited by your maximum fatigue value. Hence the word maximum.

In reply to McMurray: there is something that makes Vampiric Blood "specific". Namely, the skill states that "you gain a fatigue" In other instances (e.g. rules on vitality potion, rest order, skill "battle cry", special ability of Mordrog) use words: "restore", "recover", "return" - i.e. verbs that imply that the maximum cannot be exceeded. The verb "gain" has no such implications (correct me if I am wrong - I am not a native speaker of English). Maybe the use of another verb is not intentional - Descent rules are rather poorly written - but who knows for certain? I am OK with either interpretation but wouldn't it be more interesting if Vampiric Blood allowed exceeding the normal limit?

Big Remy, the rule you quote explains the rest order and therefore does not necessarily contradict the interpretation that Vampiric Blood allows exceeding the maximum limit. It could be even read that Vampiric Blood permanetly increases your fatigue maximum because Vampiric Blood is a skill. (Not that I would support such reading - it would make the skill too powerful)

Your group is welcome to house rule anything they want, but you are wrong if you think that a failure to mention to maximum applying counts as overriding it.

True, general rules need not repeated in specific context. However, neither is it necessary to state that a specific rule prevails over a general rule. The skills are specific rules. Normally, heroes do not gain fatigue by killing monsters. IMHO, it is debatable whether the skill also breaks the general rule that the maximum fatigue cannot be exceeded. The fact that the skill uses the word "gain" not the usual "restore" or "recover" seems to indicate that it does. As far as gameplay is concerned I think that it is OK to have it either way. The question game up in one of my Decent sessions. I was OL and the player insisted that she should be allowed to exceed the limit. I thought, why not, so we stuck to her interpretation. This "home" rule has not created any gameplay issues so far.

P.S. Actually, AFAIK there is no clear general rule stating that you cannot exceed the maximum fatigue. You infer the rule from the meaning of the word "maximum". This interpretation can be further supported by a number of specific rules that clearly state that the maximum fatigue cannot be exceeded (in these specific contexts). In short, I think that it is a good commonsense approach to assert that such general rule exists, however, it is worth pointing out that the rulebook does not stipulate explicitly that such general rule exists. Finally, it is not entirely clear what the "maximum" consists of. It is certainly not only the value printed on a hero sheet but includes some extra from skills and abilities (see p 15 quoted by Big Remy). Does it include fatigue gained from Vampiric Blood? I would say no, primarily because the skill would become overpowered, however, some may disagree - it is not entirely clear IMHO.

I don't see why you can't "gain" over the maximum because everything else states to the maximum except this. It's not like it matters too much cause I have yet to meet a player that doesn't burn fatigue, if not every turn, every other turn. If a hero can kill lots of monsters without using fatigue to get above more than 2 or 3 of maximum is ungodly for worse reasons than this. In all my experience in gaming if something says to gain (not regain, refresh, etc.), it ment possibly over "maximum" unless the rules state it can NEVER go over maximum. Since I can't find that rule and that every fatigue and health gain in the game says up to maximum, I'd have to say it's possible to go over.

The skill also DOES NOT increase your maximum either. All skill cards and abilities that allow that say so. "Add x to your maximum fatigue". Since this card doesn't says the gain is permenent it's not. Once it's used, it's lost.

Udutont said:

Not to be rude, but here is your problem. Never, ever attempt to apply common sense rulings to Descent. It rarely ever works. Honestly, this is the first time I ever heard someone suggest what you are saying for that skill. Doesn't make it wrong, but with the amount of time its been out I would think it would have come up before now.

Fatigue is a commodity in Descent. I really have trouble believing that they designed a skill that breaks that aspect of the game, simply because they used a word that could be used interchangably with restore and regain.

I went through my set of cards from the expansions I own (mine are in English)...I can't find a single hero ability or skill card that says "When you do X, you restore/gain/recover fatigue up to your maximum) . None of them that I have say that. So at least in my English set Vampiric Blood is not an exception to anything. Going by the one place in the rules that discusses regaining fatigue (two actually, Vitality potions use nearly the same words), you can not recover fatigue past your maximum otherwise all the skills (Battle Cry, Vampiric Blood to name two) and hero abilities (Verikas the Undead for one) would constantly allow you to gain more than your maximum fatigue.

So sorry, I don't by it. Until you can get some official word that says I (and many others) are incorrect I'll keep playing it that you can't go past the maximum.

Big Remy said:

No offense taken and no offense meant: good luck with trying to follow your own advice in Descent! It is impossible to cover all aspects of such complex game in a 24 pages rulebook,. On top of it, the rules of Descent are not well written. IMHO, the game is not playable without using common sense.

Big Remy said:

"Regain" and "gain" are synonyms? Really? I am not a native speaker of English but my dictionary tells me that "gain" means "to get, to increase, to achieve" while "regain" means "to get back, to recover".

Big Remy said:

Vampiric Blood IS exceptional in one aspect: it is the only skill that uses the word "gain", all other abilities, items and skills say "restore, recover, regain". (I own English versions of JitD, WoD and RtL) BTW, where in the rules is it stated that you cannot exceed your so called maximum with skills, abilities (or treasures)? I mean, how can you assert this without appealing to common sense?

I've played enough Descent to know that what people think is the common sense ruling doesn't always turn out to be true.

I didn't say the two words were synanomous, I said they were used interchangably which is not the same thing. I am fully confident that if they had meant for this skill to allow you to go past your maximum fatigue, they would have said so.

This question *used* to be in the FAQ once upon a time, although it appears to have been removed for some reason. The official response was that vampiric blood does not allow fatigue to exceed the hero's maximum value.

In my personal opinion, any ruling that requires you to start defining (or redefining) words in the English language to support your point is, and I quote: "not worth it." That's just my 2 cents, of course.

Udutont said:

Udutont, it is really very simple.
If you get in a situation where you can say "my maximum fatigue is 6 but I have 8" then you are cheating.

You are overthinking things. Sometimes, yes, it is necessary to look closely at wordings in order to sort out an ambiguous situation. However this is dangerous in Descent because of the particularly sloppy rules writing and editing. Thus, if a situation is not ambiguous it is a wise rule to follow not to go looking at wordings closely in order to find ambiguity.

Maximum is unambiguous. It cannot be exceeded without explicit instructions.
It has also been previously clarified by official sources. That clarification was presumably removed or not followed through due to it be so ridiculously unnecessary that it sets a bad precedent to even deign to answer.

Corbon said:

+1

Corbon said:

Glad to hear that in your opinion the situation is not ambigous at all! It is a fact, though, that different wording is used in the skill text. As a general principle of interpretation, one has to assume, unless proven otherwise, that the difference in wording has some significance. That said, I am perfectly alright with the interpretation you gave.