It's a ruling.

[Flight 1B, Round 3] I called over the judge for a ruling, judge made the ruling stated above. Same ruling was applied for Top 4 which was very clearly seen on the stream.

As far as i'm concerned, using your finger to mark a position is ok. As long as you move your finger before you put down another tool.

But can I actually see the ruling made on the Stream, or is it only the follow on application? Does a Judge clearly say it on the stream?

(And I apologise for the Pedantry -Its nothing personal - - but I've swallowed enough of that, and if a definitive statement is made as fact, we need to back it up...)

It's a ruling.

[Flight 1B, Round 3] I called over the judge for a ruling, judge made the ruling stated above. Same ruling was applied for Top 4 which was very clearly seen on the stream.

As far as i'm concerned, using your finger to mark a position is ok. As long as you move your finger before you put down another tool.

It is a ruling made by a judge/TO/marshal. That is different from a ruling coming from the FFG developers. I will argue anyone who tries to use a finger to mark positions in a game with me. And I will listen and obey what the TO rules on.

Until we get an official ruling in an FAQ or Tournament doc, using a finger is neither allowed nor disallowed, despite developers saying it is not allowed, and a TO allowing it.

I can confirm that nothing about a finger placeholder was mentioned at either of my top 4 games. I only used it once myself in the final, but Nathan used it a good deal in our game and I don't remember if I did (I don't think so, since I just tend to judge with my eyes). We were being watched by Michael Gernes as our judge and nothing was brought up.

BMacdonald7 and I were the two that were present during the official ruling. I think there was one other person spectating. I guess you all are going to have to just trust that what we are saying is true.

We should just not be using fingers. Why complicate things.

What am I supposed to move my ships with then? A hook?

What I gathered from the conversation with the Judge was that my fingers are considered tools, there for I'm considered a tool according to FFG.

In all seriousness what I gathered was I'm not allowed to place a finger on the table while having another tool in my hand...not considering my 9 other finger tools, just another non finger tool.

I can confirm that nothing about a finger placeholder was mentioned at either of my top 4 games. I only used it once myself in the final, but Nathan used it a good deal in our game and I don't remember if I did (I don't think so, since I just tend to judge with my eyes). We were being watched by Michael Gernes as our judge and nothing was brought up.

So I don't think anyone here is trying to take shots at you or anyone else who played at Worlds. I know it is not my intention. But watching and hearing about the games and how common people used their fingers as markers is bringing this to light. I believe there is some concern over it because there are good arguments on both sides, and using fingers to mark positions can drastically improve your effectiveness when you play. You can go from guessing where a ship can be to knowing you are within arc, or outside of black range, etc.

When I play, I guesstimate if I am in range and just go with it, whatever the out come. In a tournament setting, if I played against someone who used markers to determine range, and I didn't do that in my previous games I would feel as if I am at a disadvantage because they would be able to play better than me, and perhaps score more points. I want Armada to be fair to everyone who plays, and this is what it really comes down to for me. I find it interesting Michael didn't say anything about it, but perhaps it was to stay consistent through the entire event. Guess we will find out what they think in a few months for the next FAQ.

BMacdonald7 and I were the two that were present during the official ruling. I think there was one other person spectating. I guess you all are going to have to just trust that what we are saying is true.

Again, nothing personal, mate...

Its just the same thing that I have to put up with in the Rules Forum.

If its not presented in a single, stated, unrelentingly official way... Then its Heresay, Rumour, or otherwise "ignorable"...

Like "Official" Emails.... They're right there. They're in the hand of the person who handles the rules - but they're "Ignorable" for the purposes, because they're not specifically an FAQ...

I'm game with getting rid of that one restriction. Want a tool that has a sliding pivot point on it so I can triangulate stuff.

On a side note I saw a few shot moved from one side of the Maneuver tool to the other, and I thought that was illegal? I thought you had to place the tool so that you followed the outside bend of the last joint while not overlapping the tool with the base.

You don't have to follow the outside bend, if you can fit your ship (typically a small base one) without overlapping - see previous threads on the "inside turn". But you can't start on one side and switch to another. I don't think anyone did that....did they?

@all

Back to finger navigating, I'm fine with it. I think it's just plain silly to not allow it. To me it feels more like planning and coordinating a very complex operation. It makes me feel more like an admiral.

Another thing that has helped ease play time, reduce arguments, and add precision, to our games is a house rule we stole from the Flames of War guys at our FLGS: declared intent. When you place a model back on the board, state clearly any intended range they are supposed to be that you were trying to achieve, after doing as much measuring to believe it's doable. Things like...

I'm engaged with that squad, but should be able to be outside engagement with those others, so not engaged to them.

I'm supposed to be as far forward as I can be but still outside of move and strike range of that squadron.

We still try to be utmost precise with placement but where there could be an issue, this puts a stop to it. One thing that I think I will always take with me from my Magic:TG days is a law of design they made after an incident with a card getting to powerful only in the hands of select individuals. No effect in Magic will reward manual dexterity in any way. An individual with disability should not have that handicap their game play. A player should only be expected to have the basic dexterity to handle their own product to a basic level. And after playing minis for awhile I feel that rule should apply here as well. Armada should challenge our strategic abilities, not our abilities to gauge distance with your eyes alone. We are humans and we have created tools to compensate for weakness of the body. Let the player use them. It will only prove to be a better battle of intellect when I can use more tools in more creative ways and process more data that I gain from their use then my opponent can, and this achieve victory. We don't say to soldiers in sniper roles of our militaries to just 'eye ball it', we give them sophisticated scopes and binoculars and we train them in the math skills to plot trajectories that compensate for humidity and wind and weight of the projectile and the Coriolis effect. Yes good eyes help them, but they are in the field. We're playing with plastic on the kitchen table. We shouldn't make that a requirement to enjoy the game.

Now does that mean we don't gain an advantage by still having a good sense of spatial awareness and reasoning? No, that particular talent would only mean your workload of tool use is probably less. But not give you a win because your opponent doesn't have the same talent. I don't want to win a complex strategy game because I could 'eye ball it'better than the other guy

I'm used to a stricter application of the rule to not use more than one tool, not to triangulate, using fingers or other stuff to mark locations, than what was upheld in the streamed finals and semi-finals, but I would be more than happy to change to the more lax way version (though I would prefer if the rules for the maneuver tool stayed the same). The game is, in my opinion, meant to be much more about strategy and (interesting) choices than about spatial sense. There are other games for the later, X-Wing most notable, and I do think that an Armada game might progress faster if it depended even less on eye-balling. Preferably with the written rules and the application on this being identical.

That being said I'm used to an atmosphere where people are vocal about measurements to avoid problems if things are slightly displaced by spacial drift when other things are moved around: e.g. you move your squadron, measure and confirm for both players what is and what isn't engaged at that time.

Two tools would speed up squadron play. I think it should not be allowed with ships. Here, we will announce what a squadron is doing before we move it. For example: I'm moving Dutch so he's engaged with Dengar but not Soontir > moves Dutch within his speed 3 envelope > checks range to Dengar and Soontir > moves Dutch slightly to achieve intended objective remaining within speed envelope. There are no major corrections allowed. Once you've announced it, it's like you've just moved it already. It works here.

Two tools would speed up squadron play. I think it should not be allowed with ships. Here, we will announce what a squadron is doing before we move it. For example: I'm moving Dutch so he's engaged with Dengar but not Soontir > moves Dutch within his speed 3 envelope > checks range to Dengar and Soontir > moves Dutch slightly to achieve intended objective remaining within speed envelope. There are no major corrections allowed. Once you've announced it, it's like you've just moved it already. It works here.

This is how I play, and I haven't been corrected, TO or otherwise. Speeds play, and clarifies intentions to opponent, which they generally appreciate.

I WILL NOT allow an opponent to pick up a squad with out measuring it's distance prior to moving it though. Nothing erks me more than someone picking up a squad, seeing it won't fit somewhere and then guessing where it was, usually incorrectly, allowing them to be in range of another enemy when they didn't start that way. When that happens, I argue that it was removed from play and can't be put back. Has only happened once though.....

I think that what happened at worlds was that all the players who "got away with it" did so because no one challenged them. From my experiences with Armada communities (and I've been through like 3 different ones for good lengths of time, and several more if you count tournaments), the Armada scene is just really laid back (except for this one guy back in Danbury, CT). So a TO will let something happen as long as both players are ok with it.

But had JJ asked the TO, "hey, can he do that according to the rules," I believe the TO would have given a ruling against combining fingers with tools in the final match. But JJ didn't because he was ok with letting his opponent use that technique, or because he didn't want to look like a jerk (which is why an official ruling would help to keep people from looking like jerks).

If someone really wanted to address this without feeling like a jerk on the individual level, then I'd suggest asking for clarifications up front, to be announced at the initial gathering of players. And before beginning a match, I also tend to ask my opponents what their experience level is and how familiar they are with certain rules and the sequence of events based on the response to the first question. Especially if I have or see that they have some wonky upgrade chain that has complicated interactions.

So really, if something like this is important to you, you should address it before the match. Set and maintain the standard. Be the standard.

Alex Davy himself explicitly ruled that fingers were considered "tools" during the Gencon North American Championship. It came up specifically during the final swiss round at the top table. I don't have any proof beyond "I was there and watching the game when it happened," sort of anecdote, though.

But yes, if fingers count as tools, that means you can only have a finger or a tool at play at any given moment. That means you can't measure Close Range from a ship, put your finger down while the range stick is there, and then take the Range Stick away. You technically have to move the Range Stick away from the board first, then put your finger down if so desired, then remove the finger before bringing another tool to the board. This sequence of events makes the whole "finger stage" pretty superfluous.

But this, in conjunction with statements at Worlds, seems to suggest that using a finger in conjunction with any other tool is in violation of the rules. Whether or not someone wants to call their opponent on it, though, is another question.

Can someone explain to me, a player who has never been to a tournament, what this is all about? I thought you could measure anything at pretty much any time? This is different for tournaments?

Can someone explain to me, a player who has never been to a tournament, what this is all about? I thought you could measure anything at pretty much any time? This is different for tournaments?

You are allowed to use the Range and Distance Ruler at almost any time you're not getting in the way of your opponent.

But this applies to the Range and Distance Ruler only.....

This does not apply to the Maneuver Tool. The Maneuver Tool can only be used during the determine course step, and while using that tool, you cannot use the Range and Distance ruler at the same time... (For example, to judge what your range will be at the end position, before you actually move there...).

That is the essence of the 1 tool rule. It generally applies to both standard games and tournaments as a courtesy, but its a tournament rule as a rule...

Ah ok I think I understand, thanks!

But had JJ asked the TO, "hey, can he do that according to the rules," I believe the TO would have given a ruling against combining fingers with tools in the final match. But JJ didn't because he was ok with letting his opponent use that technique, or because he didn't want to look like a jerk (which is why an official ruling would help to keep people from looking like jerks).

Okay, I've kept my mouth shut on this long enough.

JJ didn't call Justin out for using fingers because JJ was playing it the same way. He has himself said he used his fiber to mark a spot. This is not a matter of Justin getting away with something at JJ's expense.

I have nothing against JJ at all. In fact I have a huge amount of respect for him as a kick-ass Armada player and a courteous Vassal opponent. And I haven't seen him pushing this idea at all. This is emphatically not an attack on him. Same goes for Skyshuffler.

What I have seen is this weird shift in some members of the community where pulling for JJ (obviously a great thing) has morphed into this vilification of Justin (not great at all). I think it's rooted in the fact that everybody here and there knows JJ, and there was only one other guy at Worlds who knew him, so we pull for who we know rather than the no-name.

I've seen the most ridiculous accusations against Justin during and since the final two games, though. Insinuations that he was bumping his ships on purpose--despite having conceded a Y-wing shot that frankly looked out-of-range to me before the bump. Suggestion that he didn't assign damage correctly (he did) in the overlap in his game against Skyshuffler, when it didn't matter anyway. Accusation of slow play in his game against Steven, when playing out round 6 would have increased Justin's minimal MoV to seal the win.

I get it, you guys don't know Justin. I do. He singlehandedly started and sustains the hugely robust San Antonio Armada community. He TO's virtually every one of our very-frequent and professionally-run tournaments. He runs weekly well-attended newbie nights, and is always the last guy to get matched up for a game on Armada night, making sure everybody else gets a game. He is a much more stand-up player than I am and I aspire to play with the level of respect he does.

Vilifying a player for making mistakes during his fifth and sixth games of Armada in the space of 24 hours with no rest(!) in between--particularly when those mistakes never benefited him--exemplifies an elitism that I do not want to see take root in this community. I'm not here to call out anyone in particular (Park, I just quoted you to use as an example, not because I think you did anything particularly wrong), and I've only seen it from a few people, but this really needs to stop before it gets started.

Calling out belligerence or poor sportsmanship is one thing. Rallying against someone because we don't know them is something entirely else: it's toxic and has no place here.

Yeah, I saw those comments in the twitch feed. Felt really out of place. The man was clearly really ******* tired. If you watched his first game, there was no bumping (at least that I saw). During the bumping during JJ's game, he clearly displayed good sportsmanship. He gave JJ a shot that was extremely close after he accidentally bumped the AFII while trying to lean in and look. Please tell Justin it was a joy to watch him play.

yeah, I think you are spot on, Ard. Justin played a f*** ton of games and I think he still played a great game. No one should be shamed for any reason, especially for that. Hell, I would have looked like the ogre from LoTR, swiping ships off the table!

Okay, I have no idea what all this personal stuff is about, nor do I care. Let's talk about the rule bit.

So, if the Range and Distance ruler, the maneuver tool, and my hand are all tools, and you can only use one tool at a time. How are you supposed to use the Range and Distance ruler and the maneuver tool, if you can't use your hand to hold them?

I kid (somewhat), but it's still the case that what we're told can still result in a lot of fudging. I'd almost rather that they gave up on it and allowed all tool use all the time, because there would be less to enforce.

Still, I'm confident in the good humor of my community that it won't cause problems, and we can have a bit of fun at this rule specification.

A fair and well-made point, Ardaedhel.

I think some of that, at least, can be attributed to the chat on twitch. I've been catching the twitch stream from several Worlds in a row, including watching most of it this weekend (as I play all three Star Wars Miniature games). The chat in twitch can be fun and interesting, but I have spend far less time in it this year than last year, next to none (though enough to see the accusation you mention pop up) instead preferring to talk about the ongoing matches on other chat platforms.

The things is that inbetween all the interesting observations and talks, I've seen some pretty nasty turns popping up here and there, that goes way beyond anything even remotely related to the game. For instance the X-Wing game that developed into an argument on what kind of psychological disorders one of the players might be suffering from or the Imperial Assault finals that a couple of the chatters turned into body shaming of the two contestants.

I guess it is the joy of the anonymity of the internet combined with a rising number of viewers. And yeah, another recurring theme is accusing one or more of the players of cheating on the slimest possible basis.

I'll back Ard that Justin is a terrific guy. I first met him in Dallas in June. I have been trying to get Armada going in Austin, just north of San Antonio. He's extremely good about gathering up people and bringing people to Austin for tournaments, often amounting to half the people that attend for a tournament. He offers tons of support and advice on how to build a community. He's been one of the most superb and courteous players that I have ever had the pleasure of meeting.

One key concept that makes the world go round is "the benefit of the doubt." There so many situations in life that we just don't know the other person's intent. I cannot for example tell what someone was doing when bumping their ships or whatever, but courtesy dictates that if I could interpret in a sinister way or a more benevolent one, that I interpret in the more benevolent way. I'll confess that I was also saddened to see the comments made by total strangers, whether on Twitch or on the forums. Perhaps this is just poor choice of words on the part of the people commenting.

Let's all be aware of the effect our words can have on other people and strive for the most courteous interactions with each other. The Armada community is on the whole absolutely fantastic, and I love being apart of it. As Biggs said months ago, let's go be the community we want.

Thank you for pointing that out Ard. I never noticed the twitch comments nor had any clue of the 1-sided harsh treatment, and certainly did not mean to contribute to it.

So no hard feelings.