Someone brought up that JJ was using his fingers to measure movement as well as one of the other tools (not sure which one). Are we at a point now that using 2 tools actually helps speed the game up? Myself and the peeps I play with really feel as a community we should relax on this rule so the game flows better and speeds up. The situations I am referring to are those when you have the move tool out and trying to get into or stay out of a certain range so you pull out the handy dandy range ruler as the move tool is on the table. Or you are musing a squad move and you want to see if you would be in range one of an enemy so you also bring out a range 1 tool.

One other thing I saw in the Champ game was Justin picked up his ship and was moving it but forgot to attack a bunch of squads with it. And in true class JJ let him put it back and fire away. Very cool.

So how does the community feel about this

Define "We".

I've never really cared. A finger is technically not using two tools, but it's the same damned result. Justin straight broke the rule at one point (he looked so damned tired at that point I doubt he realized he did it) and guess what? He still lost.

I'm game with getting rid of that one restriction. Want a tool that has a sliding pivot point on it so I can triangulate stuff.

On a side note I saw a few shot moved from one side of the Maneuver tool to the other, and I thought that was illegal? I thought you had to place the tool so that you followed the outside bend of the last joint while not overlapping the tool with the base.

I am 100% against this. It takes a large portion of skill out of the game, even if part of that skill is eye balling close range or range 1. Doing this would make the game simpler and less risky because I can just measure all my ranges to where I might want to move. And I'm pretty sure there was a discussion about this a while back and the concensus was using 2 tools slowed down the game, because players would measure multiple times instead of committing to a questionable move.

Using fingers to measure is simply unsportsman-like IMO. Just because the rules don't spell it out doesn't mean it can't be implied.

I'm game with getting rid of that one restriction. Want a tool that has a sliding pivot point on it so I can triangulate stuff.

On a side note I saw a few shot moved from one side of the Maneuver tool to the other, and I thought that was illegal? I thought you had to place the tool so that you followed the outside bend of the last joint while not overlapping the tool with the base.

You don't have to follow the outside bend, if you can fit your ship (typically a small base one) without overlapping - see previous threads on the "inside turn". But you can't start on one side and switch to another. I don't think anyone did that....did they?

The finger/no finger issue is a question different communities play differently. An email clarification in August indicated that that the practice was not allowed, but this was a contradiction of an earlier clarification that it was perfectly acceptable. That's what you get with email clarifications. I'd ask a TO specifically before beginning a tournament what their policy was. At least until or even if it makes the FAQ (the first email clarification never did). Personally, I'd be hesitant to call an opponent on it unless it was in combination with other factors that represented slow play. What you allow in casual play is entirely up to you.

In my book, it shouldn't be done, but I feel like a **** trying to point it out to people.

At Worlds, they should've known better.

So FYI I brought this question to Ian Cross, the TO on Thursday before the competition began. I can honestly tell you I went to the tourney thinking the rule was that your finger was not considered a tool by definition. I had not seen any email contradicting this, as Vergilius mentions there is.

Bottom line was that Ian said that it was not against the letter of the law, but he considered against the spirit. So if an opponent takes issues with it then he would rule in favor of the opponent. If both players agree it was ok though then it was alright. So when I saw other players doing it I did it as well as I had no problems with it and obviously my opponents did not. I think the general player populace at Worlds was ok with it because I noticed it being done at every table. It seemed the player base was more interested in seeing how the outcome would be based on each player having good knowledge of distances and seeing their game pieces utilized at maxed potential then seeing a game lost because someone misjudged a distance in a game where premeasuring was allowed in the first place.

I should also point out that using your finger and another tool also indicates your intentions to your opponent which helps mitigate any discrepancies that may happen and reduce arguments. Such as when bumpage happens.

Personally, I believe the limitation of only using the maneuver tool during the determine course step is enough of a limitation. I also like this limitation, and think that makes all the difference and reflects how much experience a player has by guesstimating that distance.

I think there's enough skill in the game without including range guessing. It also doesn't thematically make sense as the ships have big fancy space computers to show them stuff like the ranges of all ships in the battle. So, I'm in the camp that I would like us to be able to use the ruler and the movement tool at the same time. I also think using a marker to measure squadron placement before you pick the moving squad up would make things go faster.

I think there's enough skill in the game without including range guessing. It also doesn't thematically make sense as the ships have big fancy space computers to show them stuff like the ranges of all ships in the battle. So, I'm in the camp that I would like us to be able to use the ruler and the movement tool at the same time. I also think using a marker to measure squadron placement before you pick the moving squad up would make things go faster.

I have to say I don't know about using the maneuver tool and another range tool together is the best thing. Some pilot guessatimation has to be represented in the heat of battle.

I did use my finger for one mesurement that game (to double check FCT move + attack range). For the most part I try to avoid it and just use reference points on the playmat instead. I was under the impression it had been OK'd a while back in some email, but I hadn't heard about any contradictions, plus my opponents had been using finger placeholders in several of my games. The only real issue I have with it is if it causes slow play.

I started Armada, I made mistakes with measuring. Was pointed out to me, they were right, I stopped it.

I also dont like, and have seen it being not liked in Vasall, people taking squads, put them somewhere, release them and then shift them again.

Fingers, also not a good thing, just visualize spots on the map instead. Saying that, I am notoriously bad with judging arcs and distances myself.

I am aware of this being in contrast to quicken the game, but learned to appreciate this part of the game.

PS: Can someone please comment on my possible wrong understanding of a commentary during the final, when a moderator said that premeasuring with the manouver tool is perfectly fine to see if he should choose a nav token or the dial? I didnt relisten, did he mean to judge if the "use" of a token is justified, and not "chosing" a token?

I started Armada, I made mistakes with measuring. Was pointed out to me, they were right, I stopped it.

I also dont like, and have seen it being not liked in Vasall, people taking squads, put them somewhere, release them and then shift them again.

Fingers, also not a good thing, just visualize spots on the map instead. Saying that, I am notoriously bad with judging arcs and distances myself.

I am aware of this being in contrast to quicken the game, but learned to appreciate this part of the game.

PS: Can someone please comment on my possible wrong understanding of a commentary during the final, when a moderator said that premeasuring with the manouver tool is perfectly fine to see if he should choose a nav token or the dial? I didnt relisten, did he mean to judge if the "use" of a token is justified, and not "chosing" a token?

The way I have always played it, and I haven't been corrected in tourneys yet, was that when you reveal the dial, you have to determine whether you are using it or taking the token then. Once you get to the maneuver step, if you took a token and want to change your speed, you can use the token you just got. If you took the dial and would rather have taken the token, it's too late.

I asked this same question to Alex Davy at Gencon and he said without hesitation it is against the rules but since it isnt documented if both parties are OK with it then they usually let it fly.

As far as the finger use, I have always waited till my opponent does something and then decided then if it was okay. So, if they use the finger I know I can. This only bit me once when my opponent did something and then didn't allow me too. That was a rough game for him, because I turn into RLFH (Rules Lawyer from Hell) the rest of the game. Fair is fair.

Have fun, but don't try to take advantage of the other player through procedure. Let your fleet and skill with it do the talking.

As far as not adjusting squads, I think that's a little too particular. This isn't chess, its a strategy game. If an opponent declares what they are doing, and they can do it legally, I allow it AS LONG AS THEY ALLOW ME TO ALSO (See RLFH above). Generally I see folks measure distance, place a squad within that distance, and if they want to move it back a little to "not get Soontir" or something I have no problems. If they try to place, undo and place a different direction, then I say something.

PS: Can someone please comment on my possible wrong understanding of a commentary during the final, when a moderator said that premeasuring with the manouver tool is perfectly fine to see if he should choose a nav token or the dial? I didnt relisten, did he mean to judge if the "use" of a token is justified, and not "chosing" a token?

I caught that too and I think they were not clear with what they were saying. You can't premeasure with the tool and then decide to take a token because you can't use the maneuver tool in any other step except the Determine Course step.

You do get to premeasure with the tool if you want to know if you should speed up or down with either the Dial or Token however.

Ok, I'm going to chime in on this one.

The official ruling is that:

- you can use only one tool at a time; and

- a finger constitutes a tool.

Thus you can measure with one tool, remove the tool from the table and quickly mark the location with your finger, then pick up another tool, quickly remove your finger from the table and measure with the other tool.

Source: Round 3 of 1B, BMacdonald was doing the exact thing mentioned above, I called the judge (Ian) over to get a ruling. The judge clarified the rules. This was the same judge that was officiating the top 4 matches. Essentially this confirms that Brikhause had said earlier.

Ok, I'm going to chime in on this one.

The official ruling is that:

- you can use only one tool at a time; and

- a finger constitutes a tool.

Thus you can measure with one tool, remove the tool from the table and quickly mark the location with your finger, then pick up another tool, quickly remove your finger from the table and measure with the other tool.

Source: Round 3 of 1B, BMacdonald was doing the exact thing mentioned above, I called the judge (Ian) over to get a ruling. The judge clarified the rules. This was the same judge that was officiating the top 4 matches. Essentially this confirms that Brikhause had said earlier.

Per above Ian did advise that your finger is considered a tool now. I had not seen any rule change that advised that your finger is a tool so I was surprised by his ruling. Typically I will use my finger to mark a spot then once I get the range or other tool I'm grabbing near my finger I remove my finger. I try to be quick and not take forever as I see the main issue being pace of play. I did see in the finals the players doing the same thing I was doing so I left more confused as to what is actually considered using 2 tools at once if your fingers are considered a tool. Can you not hold a range or maunever tool in your hand while one of your fingers is pointing on the board? Do you have to drop the other tools, place your finger, then remove your finger as soon as you pick up a range or maunever tool? I'm not complaining I'm just confused as to what the actual rule is and how to properly implement it so it's clear.

I had a great game against Roquax, probably one of the most stressful games I've ever had. We both gave each other tough decisions as to which ships to activate etc.. We beat eachothers fleets up resulting in a 6-5 in his favor making us both have to go for a 10-1 to have a good chance at making top 2 which didn't turn out well for either of us in round 4. I'll do an AAR some time later but overall I met a lot of awesome people and had 4 really good games.

We should just not be using fingers. Why complicate things.

I really think FFG should make a formal ruling on this because there are a lot of conflicting statements going on here. We have 2 emails contradicting each other saying you can and cannot use fingers to mark. The devs said it is against the spirit of the game, as well as stating it is against the rules because fingers are treated as tools. But the TO will allow it because it is not written in the rules and we saw it during the finals matches.

It's weird FFG hasn't cleared this up because there are 2 very well constructed arguments on both sides.

I use to use fingers, then someone pointed out it might not be kosher, so I stopped and never really looked back... you can generally g get the same effect with good use of the distance ruler... I was even placing squads once, and living with the consequences of whether they were in range of what I wanted to be in range of or not... Most people state what their intent is when moving a squad and then fiddle around with the placement, even though the rules state, you place the ruler, pick up squad, move it anywhere up to the speed on the ruler of the squad, and put it down, and that's it...but whatevs

I usually ask myself the question "what was the intent of the developers?" Granted this is an assumption on my part, but did the creators of the game invision people using fingers or what ever to determine points on the play area? Probably not. So I don't do it.

Most of my games are on vassal though and while its perfectly legal, one the of the things that irritates me is constant switching between the two measure sticks. When it gets to the point where every change in the maneuver tool is followed by rapid switching between the two tools... I've even told an opponent to just use both at the same time becuase in the end he basically was and I'd rather save time then argue over proper etiquette.

We can speculate all we want, the ruling from Worlds is that you can use your finger to mark and measure from that point as long as you move your finger before placing down a tool.

If anyone debates this, just load up the stream from Worlds.

Is that a "Ruling" or just a "thing that people got away with" though....

.. Big difference of definition there...