So I'm new to this game, and I noticed that when firing at a ship size 4 and under, the defender gets to pick the defense zone that gets hit. That doesn't make sense to me, in a tight close dogfight, the defender would have a hard time taking damage anywhere except for the rear. Anyways, does anyone ever ignore this rule? It seems like there is no down side to having all shields in one location with this rule. The player can just lump the shieds into one location and take the damage there every time. Or am I missing something?

Hello and welcome,

well the reasoning here is, that the smaller ships are agile enough to choose where they are hit. And yes, it makes sense for those ships, to angle their deflector shields to add more setback to the attack.

In dogfights this might change: If the opposing force is also in a small ship (sil 1-4) AND has gained the advantage on you, they get to choose were you are hit. If you angled all your shields to your rear in that case, then, well.... they will probably choose to attack your unprotected front.

So this rule has two effects: giving the smaller ships more suvrvivabillity againts capital ships, which often have far more devestating weapons, and making the Gain the Advantage action actually useful.

Hope this helps.

May your astrogation data always be up to date!

Fred

So I'm new to this game, and I noticed that when firing at a ship size 4 and under, the defender gets to pick the defense zone that gets hit. That doesn't make sense to me, in a tight close dogfight, the defender would have a hard time taking damage anywhere except for the rear. Anyways, does anyone ever ignore this rule? It seems like there is no down side to having all shields in one location with this rule. The player can just lump the shieds into one location and take the damage there every time. Or am I missing something?

Gain the Advantage (GtA) switch the right to choose the defense zone to the attacker. It makes sense too, because it is easy to present a specific defense zone against an opponent in a dogfight, you just turn your nose away from your target or just boost away and show your backside before you turn around again, etc unless your opponent has the control over the positioning and can easily follow and/or outmaneuver your moves.

Now with just two defense zones and GtA which locks the enemies arc into your arc … it does sound a little bit silly to allow you to take damage on your aft arc, so I would really lock those arcs you wish to lock with GtA.

As with all things in star wars rpg it is good to remember that a single round can represents minutes of combat. So mostly running away from one target while occasional turning in to make your shots, etc is always an option over the course of one single round. It pretty much how combat plays out in the x-wing space sims or star citizen too. Except naturally for the odd shield mechanic itself with defense dice instead of regenerating hp buffer.

Exactly so. 99% of the time you'll go deflectors "double front", because you can always choose to take the hit there, and if someone uses Gain The Advantage you can use your following turn to even them out.

It's the whole "angle deflector shields for maximum protection".

But that's what Gain The Advantage does - force you to even them out.

So I'm new to this game, and I noticed that when firing at a ship size 4 and under, the defender gets to pick the defense zone that gets hit. That doesn't make sense to me, in a tight close dogfight, the defender would have a hard time taking damage anywhere except for the rear. Anyways, does anyone ever ignore this rule? It seems like there is no down side to having all shields in one location with this rule. The player can just lump the shieds into one location and take the damage there every time. Or am I missing something?

So here's the deal:

First off, zoom out and fluff up. The combat picture here is supposed to be big, fast and dynamic. So the Close range band is actually a big chunk of space, the fighters are supposed to be in constant motion vying for position, and so on. So this whole "well I'd be on his tail when shooting because I just would" doesn't hold up, the two fighters are just jinking and weaving too much to really truly target a specific area. And fighters, if you haven't' noticed yet, are very very squishy. Often two solid hits will remove a fighter from play. In many cases the winner of a dogfight won't be the guy with the best piloting rank, but the guy that also has the talents and knowledge of the action economy to back it up.

So what you're missing is the opposed piloting check and the Gain the Advantage maneuver (GtA). GtA (and to a lesser extent an opposed check) allows the attacker to select the zone he's targeting when talking about another Sil4 or smaller craft. Additionally (and we needed Dev clarification to get it) the arc selection form GtA is a two-way street. If I decide to target your rear, you can only fire on me from your rear unless you either Opposed Piloting check, or GtA me back (both of which are an action, leaving one-man craft open the following turn).

And thats how the arc selection process as it stands works. You need to ask questions as you play, you can't just lob yourself at the other guy. So like do you want to put all shields back, to encourage the other guy to target your front, giving you an opportunity to shoot him first? Or do you want all shields foward so when you GtA him his turret will have a harder time hitting you?

Likewise some craft ignore shields not out of lack of concern for the pilot, but out of reducing workload. Look at our old friend the TIE. Yeah, it's got no shields, but that's not the point. Without shields the pilot never has to spend a maneuver angling them, and so can instead focus on other maneuvers. When you also consider the high handling the TIE is not as bad as it appears on the surface. Yeah if you get hit you're toast, but when you scream in fast and GtA, you're likely to be able to keep the A long enough to use it, not just by skill, but by allowing yourself to avoid enemy fire.

Another ship question... I wanted to see what would happen if 12 y wings let an ISD have it with proton torps. Got half the hull points down. Does that seem right? IT feels like shields dont do anything

Another ship question... I wanted to see what would happen if 12 y wings let an ISD have it with proton torps. Got half the hull points down. Does that seem right? IT feels like shields dont do anything

Have you used double evasive + gta for the pilots and left the shooting to the gunners and maybe add an astromech action on top of that?

Half hull points sounds kinda weak, imho the Y-Wings should have a pretty decent chance to kill the ISD.

My hotshot and his Mech can get rid of one ISDs in a Nimbus or an Sil4 YT Freighter about 7 out of 10 times which just leading the ISD into the next possible dangerzone (nebulas, asteroid fields, debris fields, etc).

12 properly flown Y-Wings should be able to deal ton with torpedos while the ISD has little chance to hit them with his turbolasers. Afterall it is a double upgraded formidable roll with at least 3 setback dice for the ISD turbolaser batteries, while the Y-Wings roll against a single difficulty dice and basically hit every shot. The only real downside of the Y-Wings is that they don't have heavy proton torpedos, so an ISD keeps 4 of his 10 armor against those proton torpedo hits.

But return fire is gonna miss mostly as imperial gunnery corps minions come with agility 2, so even if you pack turbolaser batterie groups as packs of 5 or more, you still roll with them ccdddsssaaapp. That will deal a few hits,and just as much despair as triumph, but it will miss for a good amount too thanks to those setback dice and more importantly there will be plenty of threats on each hit, which can be used to deal a lot of critical hits to the ISD.

So as long as you are using at least starfighter aces for the rebels and don't bring all those fighter squadrons from the ISD into play … well, I am kind of surprised that the ISD manages to shoot the Y-Wings down fast enough. Though the armor of 10 and massive 2 might really help the ISD in this fight. This, the Ys are rolling against literally one lonely difficulty dice and 4 defense, I would assume at least q crits per round, and a dead ISD via critical hit in round 18 … meanwhile the ISD is without fighter screen pretty helpless once the Y-Wings arrive in its aft arc.

With all 72 fighters of the ISD in action I would not even assume the Y-Wings get close enough to fire a single shot.

dice shorthand:

c = challenge, reds

d = difficulty, purples

s = setback, blacks

b= boost, light blues / whites

a = ability, greens

p= proficiency, yellows

edit:

Had to reduce my critical hit assumption massively, those 4 setback dice and massive 2 really hurt with the crit and hit chance. Did you forget to boost or at least realign the shields to get the maximum of 4 defense dice?

Sorry, I'm still nee to this and learning the rules, but... round 18? In two rounds of fire from those Ys, it would be out of hullpoints and crippled, would it not?

Also, as far as your edit, realigning shields would just let the Ys pick a weaker shielded section to hit, correct? AFAIK, the only use for reallocating shields on a cap ship would be another cao ship fighting it, right? Sorry I'm not home now and can't check my book again

Sorry, I'm still nee to this and learning the rules, but... round 18? In two rounds of fire from those Ys, it would be out of hullpoints and crippled, would it not?

Proton torpedos launcher have "slow firing rate" so they only fire every second round. And 4 setback dice reduce the chance for critical hits massively even with 6 shots per round on average. Armor value of an isd is 10 as well, while proton torpedos have only breach 6, meaning 4 damage get reduced from each hit. With only 8 base damage and maybe 2 successes per hit extra you deal 5 damage per hit and about 25 or so damage per round (remember you can only shoot torpedos every other round and lasers do literally nothing against that kind of armor), so yeah 18 rounds might be an estimation a little too high, but with 145 hull and one damage control action to repair hull damage on top you are still looking at quite a few rounds of shooting.

But you are correct that most likely the HT threshold will become early a problem than all those critical hits kill the ship. Crippling is either way very likely within a few rounds.

Still don't see where the 4 black dice are coming from. If the isd moved shields around, wouldnt the Ys just hit a weaker shield spot?

Once I get home ill figure up what I did and post it.

Also, as far as your edit, realigning shields would just let the Ys pick a weaker shielded section to hit, correct? AFAIK, the only use for reallocating shields on a cap ship would be another cao ship fighting it, right? Sorry I'm not home now and can't check my book again

The Ys want to attack the rear section no matter what, because ISDs have little or even no guns in that arc. No guns means no firing back for the ISD, which means the ISD needs to try to change relative positions to the Y-Wings which is not gonna happen thanks to gain the advantage, so basically that large star destroyer is helpless against the Y-Wings and absolutely needs to get full shields to his aft section.

Even capital ships which have guns on all arcs you might want to realign the shields to bait enemy ships into your fire arcs while protecting your weak arcs best with your shields.

And fighters naturally want to align shields to the side which they pick for incoming fire, which should be out of this narrative the front shields and usually the aft shields once enemy fighters are on their six via Gain the Advantage (GtA).

edit: Oh and on top of that I have forgotten to consider that the gunner can take two aims for each torpedo shot and get one assist from the astromech, meaning those 3 advantage dice might increase the crit chance and increase the damage output, so my estimation was a little too conservative.

Another ship question... I wanted to see what would happen if 12 y wings let an ISD have it with proton torps. Got half the hull points down. Does that seem right? IT feels like shields dont do anything

This is a very difficult question to answer. A fight between an ISD and 12 Y-wings should have far more going on than just the Y-wings firing torpedoes and the ISD taking it on the chin. In general, the vehicular combat rules require a lot of GM adjudication and interpretation. To start, the ISD should have more actions than just shooting. There should be a captain who is often stated as a Rival or Nemesis (e.g. Pirate Captain stats from EoE or AoR would work great here) who has options to help the pilot, gunners, and other crew members, both with maneuvers and actions. There should be a couple of extra minion groups that are devoted to things like computers/sensors (hello spoof missiles action!), and mechanics (repair crews). With a crew of over 37K to ignore these aspects is a little unfair to the ISD. Ihe ISD has sensors out to Long range, which can be extreme range is on "active", which means it will see the Y-wings coming very early. With weapons out to long range, some the Y-wings are going to get tagged by heavy turbolaser fire before they can respond. The Y-wings sensors are close range; which means they need to be "active" to even see the ISD at short (e.g. max torpedo range), and using active sensors requires an action. Don't forget the gunners can also use Blanket Barrage or Overwhelming Barrage attack options from AoR pp 246-248. These defensive and offensive options can greatly increase the chance of the ISD living to fight another day. Also, as was already stated, there is the wing of TIE fighters that has to be dealt with, assuming it has no other escort vessels with it.

Finally, I'd say at first I too tried to understand the vehicular combat rules as more of a tactical simulation than as a narrative style RPG. The end result is I got really confused. There is much the rules leave to the GM to narrate and decide on, and this is dependent on the story being told.

Still don't see where the 4 black dice are coming from. If the isd moved shields around, wouldnt the Ys just hit a weaker shield spot?

I would ask why the Y-wings would be allowed to know where the shields are the weakest.

The Ys want to attack the rear section no matter what, because ISDs have little or even no guns in that arc. No guns means no firing back for the ISD, which means the ISD needs to try to change relative positions to the Y-Wings which is not gonna happen thanks to gain the advantage, so basically that large star destroyer is helpless against the Y-Wings and absolutely needs to get full shields to his aft section.

Not sure I understand the comment about GtA and changing relative position. My understanding is there is nothing prohibiting changing the range just because someone has GtA'd me. Of course I really like that interpretation, I just don't see it RAW.

Well, in a game it wouldnt be taking it on the chin. I was just curious as to how tough the ISD is against a volley or torps. Apparently, not really very tough.. haha. How would you guys handle damage control in a ship that large?

Likewise some craft ignore shields not out of lack of concern for the pilot, but out of reducing workload. Look at our old friend the TIE. Yeah, it's got no shields, but that's not the point. Without shields the pilot never has to spend a maneuver angling them, and so can instead focus on other maneuvers. When you also consider the high handling the TIE is not as bad as it appears on the surface. Yeah if you get hit you're toast, but when you scream in fast and GtA, you're likely to be able to keep the A long enough to use it, not just by skill, but by allowing yourself to avoid enemy fire.

See also the "Heavy 95" from Stay on Target, which comes with shields angled double-front by default. Doesn't quite stand up to an X-Wing, but it's got a lot of character.

The Ys want to attack the rear section no matter what, because ISDs have little or even no guns in that arc. No guns means no firing back for the ISD, which means the ISD needs to try to change relative positions to the Y-Wings which is not gonna happen thanks to gain the advantage, so basically that large star destroyer is helpless against the Y-Wings and absolutely needs to get full shields to his aft section.

Not sure I understand the comment about GtA and changing relative position. My understanding is there is nothing prohibiting changing the range just because someone has GtA'd me. Of course I really like that interpretation, I just don't see it RAW.

I was referring to the chosen arc, rangebands should change based on maneuvering, but that helps little if the Y-Wings just follow with their own maneuvers.

This is a very difficult question to answer. A fight between an ISD and 12 Y-wings should have far more going on than just the Y-wings firing torpedoes and the ISD taking it on the chin. In general, the vehicular combat rules require a lot of GM adjudication and interpretation. To start, the ISD should have more actions than just shooting. There should be a captain who is often stated as a Rival or Nemesis (e.g. Pirate Captain stats from EoE or AoR would work great here) who has options to help the pilot, gunners, and other crew members, both with maneuvers and actions. There should be a couple of extra minion groups that are devoted to things like computers/sensors (hello spoof missiles action!), and mechanics (repair crews). With a crew of over 37K to ignore these aspects is a little unfair to the ISD. Ihe ISD has sensors out to Long range, which can be extreme range is on "active", which means it will see the Y-wings coming very early. With weapons out to long range, some the Y-wings are going to get tagged by heavy turbolaser fire before they can respond. The Y-wings sensors are close range; which means they need to be "active" to even see the ISD at short (e.g. max torpedo range), and using active sensors requires an action. Don't forget the gunners can also use Blanket Barrage or Overwhelming Barrage attack options from AoR pp 246-248. These defensive and offensive options can greatly increase the chance of the ISD living to fight another day. Also, as was already stated, there is the wing of TIE fighters that has to be dealt with, assuming it has no other escort vessels with it.

All this.

Unless you've come up with a Cunning Plan, a squadron of Y-wings that goes hunting star destroyers will be spotted by the destroyer before they spot it.

Meaning the first engagement of the 'battle' is 2-3 squadrons of TIE fighters being vectored to intercept them. Even assuming you catch the destroyer cold (coming out of hyperspace or something) you can assume at least one twelve-ship squadron ready for 'hot launch', and if in open space said squadron is probably already out on combat space patrol, with another twelve turning over its ion engines in the bay.

Assuming you punch through that, the destroyer will be firing its turbolasers on....probably Blanket Barrage, and again, can throw those shots just as far as the Y-wings. That puts additional difficulty on shooting at the destroyer in any arc covered by the heavy turbolasers - and screwing up a roll means taking a hit from an anti-capital-ship weapon which is not a pleasant experience in a snubfighter.

Yes, you can choose to attack a particular facing, but at the same time, you need justify it narratively. If the destroyer is heading towards the planet you're launching from, demanding to hit the back means either you've gotta fly through the gun envelope for at least one turn, or take the long way round (and now the TIE interceptors have launched too).

Well, in a game it wouldnt be taking it on the chin. I was just curious as to how tough the ISD is against a volley or torps. Apparently, not really very tough.. haha. How would you guys handle damage control in a ship that large?

As with almost anything else, assume a Minion Group has been assigned to deal with it. If the ship is more or less intact, consider it a maximum size (i.e. full skill rank) group, otherwise scale it down a bit depending on how many fires the crew are dealing with at once.

There is no real upper limit to the number of minion groups available on a destroyer; just that whilst they can do anything, they can't really do the same thing twice.

And - for anything involving navigation or tactics (i.e. planning rather than doing) I would default to the officer's stats. I'd be hesitant to use a nemesis' adversary trait on his ship, but technically in the rules it's permissable. It makes rather more sense in terms of trying to hit Crimson Leader's TIE interceptor than the Admiral's Command Destroyer, but you can assume it's represented by the engineering crew handling the deflectors better, a few non-standard refits, better gunnery crew firing thicker defensive barrages, etc, etc.

Exactly so. 99% of the time you'll go deflectors "double front", because you can always choose to take the hit there, and if someone uses Gain The Advantage you can use your following turn to even them out.

It's the whole "angle deflector shields for maximum protection".

But that's what Gain The Advantage does - force you to even them out.

If you're fighting an enemy who has the Squadron Leader specialization and uses Form On Me they can put all their allies into advantage position before you ever get a turn to angle your shields. Space combat can get pretty tricky when all the various talents get thrown in the mix.