The Problem:

Xwing has a unique problem of relevant PS, while the PS system of order is incredibly new and fresh, it has created an imbalance in terms of what is relevant to the meta and what is not, solely based on PS. There are many pilots who have great abilities but cannot ever be relevant due to their mid level PS. They cannot recoup their points against high PS aces.

The relevant PSs are here:

1,2 - sheer efficiency under Mathwing and wave7 models.

9-11 - ships that over a high meta distribution and tournament level stringency return objective value of increased life due to firing first and arc dodging.

The main problem of Ps is that its absolute: There isn't much reward gained for taking PS5 vs a PS9 situation. And Ps5 over PS2 is only usually of marginal value. The curve of value versus paid cost is not linear as it moves up.

The Solution:

What could be done is a breakup of the benefits for higher PS. That middle PS gets slightly more information when it comes to fighting aces of higher PS. So we break down movement and action into two steps:

Thus I propose -

Veteran Training

EPT or new Training slot. 0pts

You may only equip this card if your pilot skill is 5 or more.

Your action bar gains the "delay" action.

After an enemy ship executes a maneuver, you may spend your delay token to take a free action.

What does it do?

It lets mid PS ships take an action (ex. BR vs Focus) after seeing what a higher PS ace has determined as their maneuver, but the ace still gets to reposition with their actions after the mid PS ship reacts to them.

Vessery moves, gains a delay token.

Soontir moves.

Vessery spends delay token to BR into firing position.

Soontir, seeing he can't profitably arc dodge out, turtles to Focus Focus Evade.

If the higher PS ship bumps, you can also then BR out of touching into a firing solution, now on a action less ace that has a remembered state of bumping during executing a maneuver. The ace goes on to resolve its action step, remembering it bumped during maneuver.

Extra considerations:

One rule that would be implemented is that when you move your last ship, there is a mandatory step to ask for enemy declaration of all delay tokens.

Play should not move the combat phase until all delay tokens have been cleared. If any delay tokens are still in play when combat phase has been entered, replace them with focus tokens.

The fluff:

Veteran Training and/or the new Training upgrade slot (no icon) represents incomplete but methodical learning of decent pilots. The aces, like Luke, have innate talents and instincts developed also from long experience. In contrast, academically good pilots have a certain set of added how-to for situations when they learn to fight against pilots who outmatch them.

eh

problem there is you're forgoing the action efficiency you need to actually hit through common high PS ships anyway

imo, the solution to this problem is either you just introduce more amazing abilities on lower PS pilots (rather than putting the best abilities on the highest ps), ala

and that's it, really

to facilitate them further, though, you'd need "at the start of combat" triggers such as

who is basically sorta the delay action on a stick, except you're forgoing Ahsoka's action efficiency (the horror, a 2-dice primary that generally can't be attacked anyway ) and letting a ship that can actually do damage boost/roll into a shot

lastly, you could introduce more Roark/Mux style triggers as abilities/talents, allowing you to increase/reduce the pilot skill of friendly/enemy ships during the combat phase depending on your positioning

It could be a cool EPT concept to just say you skip your perform action step normally and instead do it either at the start of combat or just end of activation. But given how moderate PS /x7 Defenders are tearing it up right now, the PS wars are not yet on like the proverbial Donkey Kong. Some of the weird stuff in Wave X might shake that up, but we have a guideline at least that as FGD says, mid-PS ships with cool abilities work. And heck, people might be flying low-PS Jess Pava in some formation stuff now.

eh

problem there is you're forgoing the action efficiency you need to actually hit through common high PS ships anyway

imo, the solution to this problem is either you just introduce more amazing abilities on lower PS pilots (rather than putting the best abilities on the highest ps), ala

and that's it, really

to facilitate them further, though, you'd need "at the start of combat" triggers such as

who is basically sorta the delay action on a stick, except you're forgoing Ahsoka's action efficiency (the horror, a 2-dice primary that generally can't be attacked anyway ) and letting a ship that can actually do damage boost/roll into a shot

lastly, you could introduce more Roark/Mux style triggers as abilities/talents, allowing you to increase/reduce the pilot skill of friendly/enemy ships during the combat phase depending on your positioning

Fickle, I don't think we're meeting at the same conceptual crossroad: This doesn't change anything about the action efficiency: The delay action simply gives you your action later.

If you choose to barrel roll, you were probably going to do that in the first place, and its still more efficient to have a shot than it is not to. So, that argument doesn't make a lot of sense.

Vessery delay.

Soontir moves, you decide Vessery delays into focus.

Vessery was going to focus anyway. Where is the action loss?

Vessery delays.

Soontir moves, Vessery delays BRs into a shot (guessing). Still better than no shot. HIGHER action efficiency.

Ryad delays

Soontir moves, Ryad delays into a focus, PTLs into TL.

This would help all the ps 5-8 pilots at once, old and new, without needing to continually make very very good mid ps pilots skills, which generally are not mathematically tested to a high degree and have a low degree of success. I would argue that your proposed solution has a known flawed history.

It also creates new possibilities of viability for a huge slew of mid PS pilots that we currently think are useless.

Let me also posit that currently you need very very modified or strong luck to hit through aces, HOWEVER, if you now start to have a lot more shots from mid PS ships on these high PS ships, there will be more attacks generated at them, reducing their token efficiency per turn, thus actually mitigating the need for tokens.

Please, consider this?

Could we think about this a little more?

The main problem of Ps is that its absolute: There isn't much reward gained for taking PS5 vs a PS9 situation. And Ps5 over PS2 is only usually of marginal value. The curve of value versus paid cost is not linear as it moves up.

Relative.

The absolute is in the pricing: the problem is that pilot skill is costed the same almost everywhere. Ships that can't reposition gain very little from it. Ships that can reposition twice can dominate ships at lower PS fairly easily so PS becomes hugely valuable.

To make mid PS worth it you'd need to make their advantage over low PS greater and their disadvantage against high PS smaller. Things like Vectored Thrusters help with the former, and you'd have to limit the ability of high PS to reposition to help with the latter.

I think one of the unintended consequences of your delay action would be buffing ordinance on lowPS ships. They could move then delay until their target moves in range then get their TL that they were out of range for when they moved.

They're moving in the right direction -- put the better pilot abilities on mid-PS ships, so you choose ability or PS, but not both.

Let's fix Fel's Wrath -- swap his ability and Soontir's!

Instincts: S-Y-C-K

Learning: S-C-Y-K

My preferred feels wrath fix "you are not destroyed until you have 3 face up damage cards .)

I think one of the unintended consequences of your delay action would be buffing ordinance on lowPS ships. They could move then delay until their target moves in range then get their TL that they were out of range for when they moved.

Actually, yes. That would be a problem.

Instincts: S-Y-C-K

Learning: S-C-Y-K

Someone is salty. =)

I think one of the unintended consequences of your delay action would be buffing ordinance on lowPS ships. They could move then delay until their target moves in range then get their TL that they were out of range for when they moved.

Actually, yes. That would be a problem.

How would this be a problem?

I think one of the unintended consequences of your delay action would be buffing ordinance on lowPS ships. They could move then delay until their target moves in range then get their TL that they were out of range for when they moved.

Actually, yes. That would be a problem.

How would this be a problem?

One of the issues with low PS ordinance carriers is that it takes them a turn to setup their TLs after they get in range. The uboats were so effective in part because they could fire first turn in range with you not being able to do anything about it. The delay action would do the same thing for every low PS ordinance carrier.

I think one of the unintended consequences of your delay action would be buffing ordinance on lowPS ships. They could move then delay until their target moves in range then get their TL that they were out of range for when they moved.

Actually, yes. That would be a problem.

How would this be a problem?

One of the issues with low PS ordinance carriers is that it takes them a turn to setup their TLs after they get in range. The uboats were so effective in part because they could fire first turn in range with you not being able to do anything about it. The delay action would do the same thing for every low PS ordinance carrier.

LRS is already a thing and is effectively better because you already have your TL. Uboats where effective because of how healthy they where in addition to not needing a TL.

I'll mention my favorite new card idea

Torkil Mux

Scum Only Crew

At the beginning of the planning phase, you may

choose one ship at range 1 to 2. Until the end of

the activation phase, treat that ships pilot skill as "0".

Wouldn't help rebels but if it was cheap enough to start popping up, it would make players a bit more cautious about relying on arc dodgers.

Edit: To OP, i like the idea but it would seriously alter the flow of the activation phase.

I think this is the most intriguing "let's fix Xwing" proposal I've seen.

Good work!

Perhaps to avoid abuse, it's limited (only one per squad). In this instance it could be a condition card, assigned during setup, but it would need to cost more than 0 to avoid it being a universal include.

I think one of the unintended consequences of your delay action would be buffing ordinance on lowPS ships. They could move then delay until their target moves in range then get their TL that they were out of range for when they moved.

Actually, yes. That would be a problem.

How would this be a problem?

One of the issues with low PS ordinance carriers is that it takes them a turn to setup their TLs after they get in range. The uboats were so effective in part because they could fire first turn in range with you not being able to do anything about it. The delay action would do the same thing for every low PS ordinance carrier.

LRS is already a thing and is effectively better because you already have your TL. Uboats where effective because of how healthy they where in addition to not needing a TL.

LRS comes with a major drawback of not being able to target lock at range 1-2 and there are only 3 ships that can equip it anyway. In this scenario you trade the extra health of the boats for an additional ship so your alpha is even more devastating.

I think one of the unintended consequences of your delay action would be buffing ordinance on lowPS ships. They could move then delay until their target moves in range then get their TL that they were out of range for when they moved.

Actually, yes. That would be a problem.

How would this be a problem?

One of the issues with low PS ordinance carriers is that it takes them a turn to setup their TLs after they get in range. The uboats were so effective in part because they could fire first turn in range with you not being able to do anything about it. The delay action would do the same thing for every low PS ordinance carrier.

LRS is already a thing and is effectively better because you already have your TL. Uboats where effective because of how healthy they where in addition to not needing a TL.

LRS comes with a major drawback of not being able to target lock at range 1-2 and there are only 3 ships that can equip it anyway. In this scenario you trade the extra health of the boats for an additional ship so your alpha is even more devastating.

Yes LRS comes with a drawback that only hurts the ship after their alpha strike which is what you seem to be worried about and the number of ships that can equip it in this case doesn't make my point moot. There are already ordance ships out there already able to get their TL before a higher PS ship and STILL have an action to focus or w/e which is still better than just having an action for later.

except it isn't more devastating because Uboats where able to modify all of their shots. Giving a ship a later action so they can get a TL and still not be able to modify their attack or fix any kind of arc dodging is not even close to uboats lvl

I'm currently flying (and doing pretty well with) a scum list that is all PS 5. And no it's not a spam list either.

I kinda like mid PS personally. High PS is too stressful for me as you gotta worry about someone else being just a bit higher, or having a better inititiative bid. But at the same time I'm higher PS than any swarm lists or any generic filler in a list.

I'm currently flying (and doing pretty well with) a scum list that is all PS 5. And no it's not a spam list either.

I kinda like mid PS personally. High PS is too stressful for me as you gotta worry about someone else being just a bit higher, or having a better inititiative bid. But at the same time I'm higher PS than any swarm lists or any generic filler in a list.

Yeah me too, currently PS 2, 2, 4/6 & 6 it works fine. In fact I want to be moving before Aces because I can see where they are going and block them so they don't get most of their defense with 4-Lom.

I think this is the most intriguing "let's fix Xwing" proposal I've seen.

Good work!

Perhaps to avoid abuse, it's limited (only one per squad). In this instance it could be a condition card, assigned during setup, but it would need to cost more than 0 to avoid it being a universal include.

That's some great thinking! Yes. What worries me is greatly increasing mathematical efficiency by a LOT. Allowing multiple ordnance ships to really easily get off alpha strikes on arc dodgers is NOT the intention. Especially not for 0 pts. The reason its zero points is to regain lost efficiency at the highest levels of meta competition. The intention is to for the card to be worth about 1-2 points, but cost 0 as its mitigated by the PS cost of the pilot itself.

Letting ordnance ships all fire ordnance at impuny on arc dodgers is farrrr beyond the 1-2 expected value of the card.

New version:

Veteran Training

EPT, 0pts, Limited

You may only equip this card if your PS is 5 or higher.

You gain delay action on your action bar. (Gives you a delay token)

After an enemy ship executes a maneuver, you may spend your delay token to take a free action.

I think one of the unintended consequences of your delay action would be buffing ordinance on lowPS ships. They could move then delay until their target moves in range then get their TL that they were out of range for when they moved.

Actually, yes. That would be a problem.

How would this be a problem?

One of the issues with low PS ordinance carriers is that it takes them a turn to setup their TLs after they get in range. The uboats were so effective in part because they could fire first turn in range with you not being able to do anything about it. The delay action would do the same thing for every low PS ordinance carrier.

LRS is already a thing and is effectively better because you already have your TL. Uboats where effective because of how healthy they where in addition to not needing a TL.

LRS comes with a major drawback of not being able to target lock at range 1-2 and there are only 3 ships that can equip it anyway. In this scenario you trade the extra health of the boats for an additional ship so your alpha is even more devastating.

Yes LRS comes with a drawback that only hurts the ship after their alpha strike which is what you seem to be worried about and the number of ships that can equip it in this case doesn't make my point moot. There are already ordance ships out there already able to get their TL before a higher PS ship and STILL have an action to focus or w/e which is still better than just having an action for later.

except it isn't more devastating because Uboats where able to modify all of their shots. Giving a ship a later action so they can get a TL and still not be able to modify their attack or fix any kind of arc dodging is not even close to uboats lvl

Also, LRS comes at a opportunity cost of no Guidance Chips. Its not even the same at all.

Can we also consider... how many mass ordnance builds can actually take this EPT? Its restricted to PS5 and above.

The conventional Uboats can't take it. Only Manaroo, as an ordnance boat, gives her two roles. I think that's fine.

At PS5 and above, that is largely the domain of unique mid PS pilots.

Also, LRS comes at a opportunity cost of no Guidance Chips. Its not even the same at all.

LRS + focus is equal or better than chips and vastly better than no mod. For low-mid ps alpha strikes LRS is better than vet training. and for ships that have an ept they can take LRS +deadeye to hedge their bets or even fake out or take crackshot for better damage to stick.

Can we also consider... how many mass ordnance builds can actually take this EPT? Its restricted to PS5 and above.

The conventional Uboats can't take it. Only Manaroo, as an ordnance boat, gives her two roles. I think that's fine.

At PS5 and above, that is largely the domain of unique mid PS pilots.

Well for imps you have most of the bombers, tomax is out for obvious reasons but the only ones that can take EPT is gamma vet and up. Punishers are out because no EPT at all, all the tie advance aside from vader are RIP.

I think I'd be more worried about a-wings with this since its a better action setup with PTL and title, and jake gets even more dumb being able to delay + focus + boost/barrel roll + ptl all after any other enemy moves.

There really isn't anything to worry about if this ept came out about mass ordnance builds because like I have said before LRS is already a thing and mass ordnance hasn't taken the meta by swarm yet.

I'd just say a reminder about how delay actually works:

1. mid ps moves, delays

2. high ps moves

3. Required request to resolve all delay tokens at this time if last ship to move on either player's side.

4. mid ps delays into actions, ex BR into a shot.

5. high ps does actions assuming no bump, ex. BR again out of that shot.

6. If any delay tokens are forgotten, its "replaced" with a focus token. This is NOT an action, NOR an assign. Does not proc PTL does not proc Attanii mindlink.

Jake cannot delay AFTER all other enemies... there are no enemy ships that can move after him if hes the ace.

If hes NOT the ace, hes PS7 with PTL, and he simply gets to PTL after Soontir moves. Then Soontir gets to PTL after Jake's final position is now set post Jake-PTL.

This is seeming like an increasingly hard idea to conceptualize it seems.

I'd just say a reminder about how delay actually works:

1. mid ps moves, delays

2. high ps moves

3. Required request to resolve all delay tokens at this time if last ship to move on either player's side.

4. mid ps delays into actions, ex BR into a shot.

5. high ps does actions assuming no bump, ex. BR again out of that shot.

6. If any delay tokens are forgotten, its "replaced" with a focus token. This is NOT an action, NOR an assign. Does not proc PTL does not proc Attanii mindlink.

Jake cannot delay AFTER all other enemies... there are no enemy ships that can move after him if hes the ace.

If hes NOT the ace, hes PS7 with PTL, and he simply gets to PTL after Soontir moves. Then Soontir gets to PTL after Jake's final position is now set post Jake-PTL.

This is seeming like an increasingly hard idea to conceptualize it seems.

I'm not saying get the delay token into a focus, im saying using the delay action for a free focus action for jake.

Here is how jake would work with this ept since it seems it needs to be explained in detail since there is a misunderstanding

jake moves

jakes action is to delay

higher ps moves

jake's delay token "goes off" and he picks focus for his delay action.

He gets a focus token and now gets to boost or barrel roll as a free action.

He can now PTL since he just did an action and can now do another action on his action bar

Higher ps can now do their action.

Delay is not a hard concept to follow

I did seem to miss out on finishing my 2nd paragraph which also may have been some confusion since I meant to put move after "any other enemy..."

As for delay not going off means switch it with a focus token rules wise is a mess within itself since its adding another mechanic on top of a 'new' mechanic that already exist in the game which is assign. It is trying to do multiple things all at once while at the same time "self correcting" to try and prevent abuse but that just normally turns things into a clunky mess.

Also did you mean unique instead of limited for the EPT because limited just means can't take more than 1 on the same ship while unique means can't take more than 1 of in the squad list.