So we're starting off on our first major campaign in a great long while, and I came upon the cortosis shield in the equipment. If a starting player drops the money on this do they really get a relatively cheap shield that gives them Defense 2/Deflect 2?

Why wouldn't every single Jedi out their use this along side their lightsaber? This is better then any armor of equivalent value.

I'm hoping I'm just horribly misreading how this works, since otherwise it seems it's something every intelligent jedi would carry alongside their lightsaber.

I'd consider that to be Two-Weapon combat. Among other things, that means that they'd be using the worse of Lightsaber and Melee, as well as using Brawn. (They're not going to be using one of the lightsaber techniques if their Brawn is better, so it'll either be Brawn because Brawn is worse or Brawn because both skills are based off Brawn.)

Honestly, I think that's pretty balanced. They can do it, but they're getting all the usual two-weapon combat drawbacks.

Aside from aesthetic considerations, it's Encumbrance 4 on top of your other equipment which, unlike armor, doesn't get reduced by wearing it. It's also Cumbersome 3, and not every Jedi wants to invest that heavily in Brawn.

I wouldn't call it two-weapon combat unless the player is trying to attack with both weapons at once, but having both of your hands occupied could make it difficult to activate certain force powers or use a stimpack.

Finally, Cortosis is relatively rare, so a shield made with it is likely to attract attention, and unlike a lightsaber, it's not easily hidden when it's not in use. I'm not saying the inquisitors will be after you for having one by any stretch, but it's a notable feature that will make the character more memorable and easier to identify, and people might wonder what the character does that requires equipment like that.

Aside from aesthetic considerations, it's Encumbrance 4 on top of your other equipment which, unlike armor, doesn't get reduced by wearing it. It's also Cumbersome 3, and not every Jedi wants to invest that heavily in Brawn.

I wouldn't call it two-weapon combat unless the player is trying to attack with both weapons at once, but having both of your hands occupied could make it difficult to activate certain force powers or use a stimpack.

Finally, Cortosis is relatively rare, so a shield made with it is likely to attract attention, and unlike a lightsaber, it's not easily hidden when it's not in use. I'm not saying the inquisitors will be after you for having one by any stretch, but it's a notable feature that will make the character more memorable and easier to identify, and people might wonder what the character does that requires equipment like that.

If they want the qualities from the shield, I'd call it as two-weapon fighting. You want to defend with the shield? You have to do it actively.

Thank you guys so much! I totally missed both the two weapon fighting rules, and the encumbrance rules. Both of those dramatically change its effectiveness. (Seriously thought it was just a free +2 defense dice item with little to no drawback).

I wouldn't use 2 weapon fighting unless the player were trying to beat someone with the shield, but it does have plenty of weaknesses. Cumbersome 3, Enc 4, being a huge honking shield... Also it takes up a "slot" if you will, so to do anything with something other than the shield and their saber they'll first have to drop or stow one. Those maneuvers add up.

Also remember It's not that great really. Defense and Deflective just add a setback per rank to attacks. So whenever anyone shoots or chops the player they add 2 setback.... not a big deal, especially since each die has a 30% chance of blanking.

2 setback is about the same as one rank in dodge

2 setback is about the same as one rank in dodge

Setpack dice: 2 failures, 2 blanks, 2 threats, 33% for each of the 3 possible results.

difficulty dice: 1 double threat (12.5%), 1 double failure(12.5%), 1 failure+threat(12.5%), 1 blank(12.5%), 2 single failures (25%) and 2 single threats (25%)

challenge dice: 1 despair (8.3%), 2 double threat (16%), 2 double failure (16%), 2 failure+threat (16%), 2 single threat (16%), 2 single failure (16%), 1 blank (8.3%)

You have a 66% chance to get "improvement" of your dice pool result with the setback dice, while the challenge dice gives you ~28% chance of a better result. You might get trigger a despair, but outside of that a single setback dice seems to nearly equal to on rank of dodge especially for the potential spikes of difficulty dice + setback dice rolling maximum failures or threats as this is something which can not matched by the challenge dice. (Now despair is still great, but that's just a 8.33% chance.)

Is there any precedent for carrying a shield forcing you to have the drawbacks of two weapon fighting? As I understood it even if you had a blaster in each hand you could choose to use just one blaster as normal instead of two weapon fighting, so I can't really see how this could apply. If simply having something in the other hand counts, what if you have a stimpack in your off-hand when you take a shot?

Is there any precedent for carrying a shield forcing you to have the drawbacks of two weapon fighting? As I understood it even if you had a blaster in each hand you could choose to use just one blaster as normal instead of two weapon fighting, so I can't really see how this could apply. If simply having something in the other hand counts, what if you have a stimpack in your off-hand when you take a shot?

I can see arguments for both sides. A stimpack in your offhand is not part of the combat and if you want to use it, you need spend a maneuver on it anyway. The shield works passive like armor for the most part, but is active part of your combat actions.

At the other hand shields are trivial to use in combat, they don't make your weapon attacks significant harder unlike when using two swords for example, which really is a challenge to coordinate and not get one weapon in the way of the other.

So from practical experience with sword and shield combat, I would say just add the defensive boni.

Though from practical experience is would increase difficulty by 2 for dual-wielding melee attacks, and by 1 if you want to hit with your shield/parry dagger additionally to your main weapon. Some weapons are simply better suited for dual-wielding than others.

Alas as the rules are now, shields should not count as two weapon fighting unless you actually announce that you want to attack with your shield as well … something with is awesome with the energy buckler because of his concussive quality or a custom shield with knockdown.

Is there any precedent for carrying a shield forcing you to have the drawbacks of two weapon fighting? As I understood it even if you had a blaster in each hand you could choose to use just one blaster as normal instead of two weapon fighting, so I can't really see how this could apply. If simply having something in the other hand counts, what if you have a stimpack in your off-hand when you take a shot?

There isn't. TWF only applies to attacking with two weapons in a single Action. If you're not actively trying to hit anyone with the shield, you don't suffer any penalties; holding up a shield doesn't take the same amount of concentration as firing a second blaster or swinging a second sword at a target.

There are four main drawbacks to the shield as is, and one further drawback that I think should be added in.

1. As previously mentioned, the encumbrance is 4. It really cuts down on what else you can carry, especially when you're using it and have both hands occupied.

2. It takes up a hand. While this doesn't meant you suffer the penalties for TWF, it IS a setback that sets it apart from armor, which will lets you keep a hand free.

3. Cumbersome 3. Out of all melee combatants, Jedi rely on Brawn the least, considering how easily they can access Talents that let them link Lightsaber to a different stat. They also don't get very far with the extra soak, as another lightsaber will just cut through it. Forcing them to have Brawn 3 or upgrade all checks while using the item is pretty significant.

4. Social setbacks. If you're out in the wild or somewhere else that's dangerous, it's fine. But even in a Mos Eisley bar, it's a little...over-the-top to go carrying around a shield. Particularly a shield made up of such a rare and valuable material...

...which brings me to what I'd add in. Cortosis as a mod for armor costs some 10,000 credits. Yet here we see a bunch of cortosis stuff, some of it refined and very difficult to work with, some if it ancient relics of a past age that aren't being made any more, ranging anywhere from 1/4 to 1/10 the price! Yikes!

Keeping in mind that this is supposed to be a RARE and EXPENSIVE material, I'd say to vastly increase the listed prices of the cortosis stuff in F&D. 900 credits for a SHIELD of the stuff is insane. I'd honestly just add a 0 to anything with the Cortosis quality. That shield? 9,000 credits. Ancient relic sword? 13,500 credits. Highly advanced refined cortosis staff? 25,000. This should be 500+ XP kind of gear, not something someone should start with.

It's also worth noting that 2 defensive, 2 deflection on a 'weapon' is the equivalent of 2 defense. Not overwhelming overpowered, but when combined with getting to shut down a lightsaber I'd call 9000 a fair price.

I have a counter argument for Mr. Meruna.

Cortosis is rare. This means that items that have it tend to be hard to find, requiring a hard or higher difficulty check to locate. But it doesn't have value beyond being lightsaber resistant for weapons. Needing protection against a lightsaber isn't common. The SIth Empire isn't fighting the old Republic, unless you're in the TOR era. And this is why the cost isn't too insanely high. A lack of demand. And it's still more then its contemporary.

A Vibrosword is 750 credits vs. the Cortosis Sword's 1350 credits. And the Vibrosword is better most the time unless you're expecting to need to keep your weapon from being sundered by a lightsaber or other sundering weapon.

Then you point to the cost of the Cortosis armor attachment. I'd say its expensive because of how hard it is to work with and finding someone who has that attachment laying around their shop, also it's more useful then a Cortosis weapon. It's a daunting difficulty to find someone with Cortosis weave to put into your armor on an average world.

Outside of someone stripping you down, you aren't going to be without it. And it doesn't stop sundering like the weapons do, it stops pierce and breach. This is much more valuable to anyone.

I have a counter argument for Mr. Meruna.

Cortosis is rare. This means that items that have it tend to be hard to find, requiring a hard or higher difficulty check to locate. But it doesn't have value beyond being lightsaber resistant for weapons.

Actually:

.... Cortosis, due to its energy resistant properties, was also resistant to blaster fire.... Cortosis ore was used extensively in shadowtrooper armor, as well as the C-B3 cortosis battle droids during the Clone Wars, and the Force -using group known as the Jensaarai . The cortosis used for this armor was smuggled out from Bespin's Cloud City . The walls of the Imperial Palace were also lined with cortosis ore. It was also used to strengthen starfighter and capital ship hulls, and was woven into body armor. Cortosis was expensive to mine because it was so rare and it had to be absolutely refined.

From http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cortosis/Legends . In canon, Cortosis has been reintroduced, but not elaborated upon.

In any case, since FFG tends to draw pretty heavily from Legends, I think it's safe to say that cortosis is rare and expensive. I'd also say it's lightsaber-resistant properties is actually it's lesser known property (except maybe among the older of the underworld bosses who looked into 'Jedi insurance' back in the day and of course Inquisitors) among the general public, with most people who even know that name thinking of it at "that stuff that goes into starships and is really expensive."

So, there's a LOT of demand still, and the mining process is expensive, jacking up the price. Finding someone with the expertise to mold it into gloves or a staff would probably also be factored into the cost. And yes, it's just as much a PITA to put it into a staff then is it to weave it into armor. Perhaps more so, because the staff and gauntlets need an even more refined version in order to short out a lightsaber blade. As for being Sunder-proof...everyone thinks that's not an important quality riiiight up until they're facing down a charging Gamorrean with a vibro-axe

Is there any precedent for carrying a shield forcing you to have the drawbacks of two weapon fighting? As I understood it even if you had a blaster in each hand you could choose to use just one blaster as normal instead of two weapon fighting, so I can't really see how this could apply. If simply having something in the other hand counts, what if you have a stimpack in your off-hand when you take a shot?

There isn't. TWF only applies to attacking with two weapons in a single Action. If you're not actively trying to hit anyone with the shield, you don't suffer any penalties; holding up a shield doesn't take the same amount of concentration as firing a second blaster or swinging a second sword at a target.

There are four main drawbacks to the shield as is, and one further drawback that I think should be added in.

1. As previously mentioned, the encumbrance is 4. It really cuts down on what else you can carry, especially when you're using it and have both hands occupied.

2. It takes up a hand. While this doesn't meant you suffer the penalties for TWF, it IS a setback that sets it apart from armor, which will lets you keep a hand free.

3. Cumbersome 3. Out of all melee combatants, Jedi rely on Brawn the least, considering how easily they can access Talents that let them link Lightsaber to a different stat. They also don't get very far with the extra soak, as another lightsaber will just cut through it. Forcing them to have Brawn 3 or upgrade all checks while using the item is pretty significant.

4. Social setbacks. If you're out in the wild or somewhere else that's dangerous, it's fine. But even in a Mos Eisley bar, it's a little...over-the-top to go carrying around a shield. Particularly a shield made up of such a rare and valuable material...

...which brings me to what I'd add in. Cortosis as a mod for armor costs some 10,000 credits. Yet here we see a bunch of cortosis stuff, some of it refined and very difficult to work with, some if it ancient relics of a past age that aren't being made any more, ranging anywhere from 1/4 to 1/10 the price! Yikes!

Keeping in mind that this is supposed to be a RARE and EXPENSIVE material, I'd say to vastly increase the listed prices of the cortosis stuff in F&D. 900 credits for a SHIELD of the stuff is insane. I'd honestly just add a 0 to anything with the Cortosis quality. That shield? 9,000 credits. Ancient relic sword? 13,500 credits. Highly advanced refined cortosis staff? 25,000. This should be 500+ XP kind of gear, not something someone should start with.

It's also worth noting that 2 defensive, 2 deflection on a 'weapon' is the equivalent of 2 defense. Not overwhelming overpowered, but when combined with getting to shut down a lightsaber I'd call 9000 a fair price.

Brawn is still important for Soak, and most opponents will not be carrying weapons with Breach. For that matter, not every Force-using PC will be using a lightsaber either. A cortosis shield and a high-end blaster pistol (like the Dragoon) is a pretty amazing combination.

I have a counter argument for Mr. Meruna.

Cortosis is rare. This means that items that have it tend to be hard to find, requiring a hard or higher difficulty check to locate. But it doesn't have value beyond being lightsaber resistant for weapons. Needing protection against a lightsaber isn't common. The SIth Empire isn't fighting the old Republic, unless you're in the TOR era. And this is why the cost isn't too insanely high. A lack of demand. And it's still more then its contemporary.

A Vibrosword is 750 credits vs. the Cortosis Sword's 1350 credits. And the Vibrosword is better most the time unless you're expecting to need to keep your weapon from being sundered by a lightsaber or other sundering weapon.

Then you point to the cost of the Cortosis armor attachment. I'd say its expensive because of how hard it is to work with and finding someone who has that attachment laying around their shop, also it's more useful then a Cortosis weapon. It's a daunting difficulty to find someone with Cortosis weave to put into your armor on an average world.

Outside of someone stripping you down, you aren't going to be without it. And it doesn't stop sundering like the weapons do, it stops pierce and breach. This is much more valuable to anyone.

Cortosis was used as armor for star destroyers and became out of fashion because more effective armor drove it out of fashion. Yes, it is a rare material, but building armor or weapon out of it seems to in the kind of using rare materials as titanium for bike frames. Expensive, but still reasonable.

The amount of Cortosis you would need for a single imperial class star destroyer is enough to give all 30,000 jedi of clone wars a cortosis shields and armor instead. It is not that rare, lightsabers are clearly less common. Rarity of 7 and 8 represent this very good as well.

That the cortosis weaved mesh mod is more expensive is easily explained too. That is a modified mesh which can applied to basically anything, this kind adaption is definitely more pricey than mass produced electrostaffs or republican blast shields which look surprisingly like the cortosis shields and were standard equipment for the 501st. The cortosis shield from FaD is a mass produced one too, a Arakyd Industries Special Order Model 3 to be precise, which sounds like a CIS model as Arakyd is supposed to be mainly a droid manufacturer and somewhat aligned with the CIS at least in legends. (Though they supply the empire with equipment as well, so it might be special equipment for the imperials too)

Lastly, if it just about efficiency I would take refined cortosis gauntlets over the cortosis shield anyday. The ability to have defense 2 is insignificant to the ability to shut down an opponent's lightsaber. Especially as defense 2 can be acquired with tons of other options while most characters only have two hands.

Honestly there is no need to nerf this shield by adding a Two Weapon Combat requirement if you are using the standard Encumbrance rules. Most PCs are going to have an ENC of 7-9 so eating half of it on this shield is a serious chunk of real-estate. Encumbrance is a balancing tool and you'll notice that some of the most potent Combat equipment have higher ENC so it shouldn't be hand waved. If you as a GM don't want to spend the time to police ENC just leave it up to the Players, I find all I need to do is tell them to keep track of their ENC and ask every once and a while if the are within their load, they do all the work. I trust my group and don't nit pick on small items as an extra clip or Datapad makes no difference either way but weapons and heavier equipment are going to need to be accounted for.

Most PCs are going to have an ENC of 7-9 so eating half of it on this shield is a serious chunk of real-estate.

Are you implying that most PCs don't have a backpack, holster and utility belt? A military backpack adds 6 ENC. ;-)

It still a good junk, but it still far away from half the enc on the shield.

I'ma gonna side with the ones who say this doesn't need nerfing. Especially for its cost. An extra thing to consider is that since it takes up a hand it is not compatible with two-weapon fighting (as in, whoever is using this shield has to give up the option of using two weapons instead), an added flaw for many characters. I like shields personally, and like having the alternative to using two-handers or duel wielding (the latter of which I find to be too prolific and overrated, made 'hip' by Marty Stu Dark Elf Rangers who should be flayed alive and dipped in salt).

Most PCs are going to have an ENC of 7-9 so eating half of it on this shield is a serious chunk of real-estate.

Are you implying that most PCs don't have a backpack, holster and utility belt? A military backpack adds 6 ENC. ;-)

It still a good junk, but it still far away from half the enc on the shield.

They might have that gear but you can damage or destroy gear with triumphs. A backpack takes a hit and now gear is spilling out of it. Same thing with Despair. Because gear is useful in this game but it doesn't make the character, a GM shouldn't be afraid to attack the PC's stuff.

And there is the social aspect of it. You'll look stupid walking around Mos Eisley with everything you own on your back. Might add setpack to any negotiation or charm.

Makes you a pretty good target for a pickpocket, too How much does it boost the cut-purse's chance to grab something off the modular backpack, military pack, or load bearing gear?

Most PCs are going to have an ENC of 7-9 so eating half of it on this shield is a serious chunk of real-estate.

Are you implying that most PCs don't have a backpack, holster and utility belt? A military backpack adds 6 ENC. ;-)

It still a good junk, but it still far away from half the enc on the shield.

I get that with Utility belts and such (I was doing an average) and that there are times when using a pack makes sense but if you are allowing your PCs to walk around civilized areas with all the things all the time then, IMO, you are missing out on an important part of the game. It's roleplaying and how a PC presents themselves in situation is part of of it. If people are walking around town or investigating leads etc. with a military pack or duffel-bag, heavy weapons, grenades, and a human sized riot shield you should be adding Setbacks liberally for interactions with NPCs otherwise what are you playing? This isn't Fallout where you can load up to the gills and suffer no negative effects, unless you want to play that way which is your choice but I prefer my Star Wars to be like what we see in the films not PCs loaded up all the time like a walking general store.

Most PCs are going to have an ENC of 7-9 so eating half of it on this shield is a serious chunk of real-estate.

Are you implying that most PCs don't have a backpack, holster and utility belt? A military backpack adds 6 ENC. ;-)

It still a good junk, but it still far away from half the enc on the shield.

I get that with Utility belts and such (I was doing an average) and that there are times when using a pack makes sense but if you are allowing your PCs to walk around civilized areas with all the things all the time then, IMO, you are missing out on an important part of the game. It's roleplaying and how a PC presents themselves in situation is part of of it. If people are walking around town or investigating leads etc. with a military pack or duffel-bag, heavy weapons, grenades, and a human sized riot shield you should be adding Setbacks liberally for interactions with NPCs otherwise what are you playing? This isn't Fallout where you can load up to the gills and suffer no negative effects, unless you want to play that way which is your choice but I prefer my Star Wars to be like what we see in the films not PCs loaded up all the time like a walking general store.

With that argument you throw the shield as military combat gear and riot control tool directly out of the window anyway (rightfully!). I thought we are talking here about combat equipment in the first place. Encumbrance is then the smallest factor, you leave the heavy weapons together with the shield in the speeder anyway when you go to formal events … well or not if official business is scaring the locals. Either way if large shields are a legit fashion option than military backpacks are as well. Actually, I would even say that large backpacks cause less turned heads than those shields or the all-time popular auto-blaster rifles.

And what do I play? An alliance officer of starfighter command with flight suite and all, I am definitely not getting setbacks for a military backpack… not planning to go onto a ball that way either. Plenty of military personnel with military backpacks in the movies too ;-)