Just for the sake of clarity, what ships are supposedly being hard countered by the likes of Fel and boosting turrets nowadays?
Z-95s can't catch Fel, nor can X-Wing. Basically any jouster. They either catch him at R3, in which he's near impossible to hit, maybe once in a while have a R2 shot, otherwise nothing. And they get plinked away by Fel...
Isn't PTL for making the token stacks to give Dengar?
if all the ships fast enough to catch her disappeared.
I doubt the TIE interceptor would actually die. Soontir might, but Carnor isn't always PTL anyway and Turr is pretty much unchanged from what he was.
As for ships fast enough to chase, nothing that had boost loses it. Manaroo isn't going to outrun anyone for long.
Manaroo is the only current(ly known) meta threat that really needs PTL. The Omicron/Ryad/Vessery list would change a bit; you'd keep Ryad, probably giving her Pred, and probably dropping Twin Ion to replace Vessery with a predatory Maarek.
Soontir, Inquisitor etc are already running scared from all the stress tools that were being suppressed by Scouts but now have a shot at viability.
Isn't PTL for making the token stacks to give Dengar?
if all the ships fast enough to catch her disappeared.
I doubt the TIE interceptor would actually die. Soontir might, but Carnor isn't always PTL anyway and Turr is pretty much unchanged from what he was.
As for ships fast enough to chase, nothing that had boost loses it. Manaroo isn't going to outrun anyone for long.
Burnout's a one shot thing. Sounds like no PTL or EU would increase Manaroo's vunerability.
Burnout's a one shot thing. Sounds like no PTL or EU would increase Manaroo's vunerability.
The Jumpmaster's top speed is 4 and it can't maintain that constantly without flying off the board. Surely even X-wings could catch it unless it's really, really well flown?
EDIT: I just remembered BB-8. Although given the T-70's green dial I'm not too worried about it.
Edited by Blue FiveThe Jumpmaster's top speed is 4 and it can't maintain that constantly without flying off the board. Surely even X-wings could catch it unless it's really, really well flown?
To me, reactive repositioning is what makes the game great. So while I appreciate the effort, I'd rather not join this thought experiment. This is a dogfighting game - I'd rather have a game where only high-PS aces are viable than one where jousters are unbeatable.
Right now, we have both, which is much better of course.
All PTL repositioning ships (except Dash) have an extremely limited dial. Park a large base diagonally in front of a TIEint and it will definitely ram into it. Simply have any other ship point towards your blocker, and you now have a very powerful, potential OHKO shot against the TIEint, palp or no palp.
There are also so many weapons to go up against it. Bombs, turrets, ion, stress, anti pursuit laser, ion projector, feedback array, darth vader crew, a 2nd ship. If it is going to win you at the maneuvering game most of the time, why give him a fair fight?
I'd much sooner make EU cost more for big ships and tweak ATs before making these changes.
Like add, "small ship only"?
Which really seem stupid for Engine Upgrade as the ONLY way to get them is from LARGE ship expansions. I believe that an FFG policy is that all of the upgrades in a box should be usable by ships in that box.
I've been having similar thoughts myself recently. In general, my problem is that being able to have two or even three actions a turn is so good that it makes it worth putting PTL on ships that don't even have a lot of greens. It makes pilots that can get extra actions through their abilities (Turr or Vader, for example) less useful, because almost everyone else can just equip PTL and have double actions, as well as pushing Fel into triple actions which makes him so insane to deal with.
It also makes support ships redundant when most ships can become self-sufficent.
Double actions also adds to the problems with accuracy/defense in the game where 2 attack dice can't stand up to focus plus evade on high agility ships.
I'd definitely like to see it disappear if there's ever an X-Wing 2.0.
We'd probably see more Turr, yeah. I have my doubts as to how powerful he'd be though: he's not seen much at the moment despite his very low cost.
To me, reactive repositioning is what makes the game great. So while I appreciate the effort, I'd rather not join this thought experiment. This is a dogfighting game - I'd rather have a game where only high-PS aces are viable than one where jousters are unbeatable.
Right now, we have both, which is much better of course.
Would you enjoy the game more if you chose your dial when you activated? Because "reactive repositioning is what makes this game great" sure sounds like it.
I'm also not sure how only being able to reposition once equates to the only viable squads being B-wings and even if it did players would still try to outmaneuver each other. It took me a while to realise it but the traditional arc-dodgers are actually far more guilty of reducing the impact of the Planning Phase than any ship classified as a traditional "jouster."
Besides, there aren't really any ships in the game that fit the traditional definition of jouster: anyone who flies a ship straight at the enemy and k-turns until they or the enemy dies isn't flying their ship intelligently at all.
I go into it in more detail in this thread but essentially it's more useful both tactically and looking at the game as a whole to view arc dodger and jouster as situational: the jouster is the ship that can afford to trade fire in any given matchup. The maneuvering pressure on both is very similar, both would rather have no return fire if possible.
Essentially reactive double repositioning isn't intrinsic to arc-dodging at all and no repositioning doesn't make for an arc dodger. A ship can arc dodge on dial alone if the dial and the pilot are good enough.
Edited by Blue FiveWe'd probably see more Turr, yeah. I have my doubts as to how powerful he'd be though: he's not seen much at the moment despite his very low cost.
https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/228306-an-alternative-look-at-arc-dodgers-and-jousters/To me, reactive repositioning is what makes the game great. So while I appreciate the effort, I'd rather not join this thought experiment. This is a dogfighting game - I'd rather have a game where only high-PS aces are viable than one where jousters are unbeatable.
Right now, we have both, which is much better of course.
Essentially reactive double repositioning isn't intrinsic to arc-dodging at all and no repositioning doesn't make for an arc dodger. A ship can arc dodge on dial alone if the dial and the pilot are good enough.
Very well typed and thought out (this thread as well as the linked one). I do enjoy your thoughts and words. Even with my understanding, I still disagree about your proposed solution. Taking a glass-cannon like Fel onto a mat is high risk, high reward only if you can arc dodge every arc of the enemy ships and stay in the Autothruster happy zone of Turrets. Not only does this require spending lots of points on your glass-cannon, but you have to invest lots and lots of flight time and game-time concentration to pull off making it stand on its pegs at game's end. In my humble, and not so well thought and written as yours (kudos again), opinion:
This. Is. X-Wing.
Instead of outright banning, try experimenting with an increased cost. Most lists are built to exact specifications, messing the point balance would shake stuff up as well.
My choice would be VI over EU though, but those three, PtL, VI and EU are the most impactful cards in the game.
I'd run Fel with Daredevil or Outmaneuver if PtL were gone btw.
Instead of outright banning, try experimenting with an increased cost. Most lists are built to exact specifications, messing the point balance would shake stuff up as well.
That was my first thought: FFG could theoretically have a Netrunner style most wanted list that amps costs. Were they ever to explore card restrictions this is likely what they'd do.
However, in many ways price isn't really the problem: the fact that a hard counter can exist is because there's always a risk of running into it. The 82 point Phantom list worked because the TIE phantom was such a hard counter that price didn't matter. The dominant list of Wave 4 was the Fat Falcon, the cause was the TIE phantom. It's a pattern we see frequently: a list arises that a sizeable chunk of the game simply can't deal with and the counterbuild to that becomes dominant. Double reposition can cover so much distance that it's arguably too powerful against the majority of lower PS ships: you screw up and you can still dodge.
I think it's interesting and I agree with one point if nothing else. Tie Interceptors became married to PtL because it was such a easy match, in fact I'd almost go as far as to call it lazy. It would be interesting to see what people would come up with for Interceptors without PtL.
If nothing else I think that PtL has always been too cheap for what it does, it's been perhaps the single most used upgrade in the game and that alone is reason enough to think it should be 4 or even 5 points instead of 3.
Even with a restricted list that added four points to the cost of any card on it would interceptors stray from PTL?
Even with a restricted list that added four points to the cost of any card on it would interceptors stray from PTL?
Yes. At least in many cases as 4 more points is more than a 10% increase in cost.