How would the metagame change if you banned a mere two cards? More specifically, Push the Limit and Engine Upgrade?

Both have heavily shaped the X-Wing metagame and I wonder what it would be like in their absence. The immediate thought is a massive hit to the effectiveness of high pilot skill: with both removed no ship can consistently reposition twice without assistance from another ship. Several PWT builds would cease to function as they once did. The TIE interceptor would have to reinvent itself as the A-wing did assuming it didn't die outright. The discussion of how the TIE interceptor would function in a world without PTL is interesting in its own right (given the absence of other arc dodgers I doubt it actually would leap for VI immediately).

Either way it'd definitely be a nerf to repositioning reliant builds including Imperial Ace based squads and Rebel Regen (which is dependent on dodging to regenerate). Stress control would also probably be a bit less effective given its prey no longer exists. This'd allow builds that can't compete in an environment where those two are strong to exist, but what would those builds be?

It'd also bring most ships down to one action a round, making support abilities more valuable and maybe reducing the token stacking that's made life so difficult for ships with two attack dice.

The knock on effects of pulling these mere two cards out of the jenga tower are so far reaching I struggle to predict the consequences.

Soontir Fel+EI+Expert handling(or Daredevil)+Autothrusters

Daredevil would double stress you.

Expert Handling Experimental Interface does work but it's five points for a far more limited effect than PTL gave. It lacks the triple token stacking ability Soontir used when he was finally caught and also lacks the Stealth Device he usually has. It's close to PTL Soontir but the cost and reduced capability limits the power.

I thought of another since posting this which is Tycho, but even then he's at reduced power and even at full he wasn't a metagame presence.

But if Push the Limit were (in theory) to be banned, I'd never see my favorite Imperial TIE variant on the table ever again in competitive play.

I think you may not be alone in the Ace nerfing camp. I'm thinking FFG designers seem to be setting up newer cards that hit at Aces somewhat, as when they take additional moves or positioning actions like Push the Limit which are paid for by receiving stress tokens. Slicer Tools seems to be the 50% buff to that card. As far as Engine Upgrade, it gives a boost action to any ship carrying it; at 4 points, what's the rub there?

Personally, if I were an FFG designer, I'd be trying to roll-back multi-situational card interface and stress pilling, rather than Ace pilots in single-seat fighters (which is clearly the beating heart of the game).

Why the repositioning hate Blue Five? When Fel is tabled by an expert pilot (not in any way me), or I fly him and perform a few amazing ways to avoid arcs or survive attacks, it's a beautiful thing. This is, at its core, an intergral part of why we love X-Wing.

Why the repositioning hate Blue Five? When Fel is tabled by an expert pilot (not in any way me), or I fly him and perform a few amazing ways to avoid arcs or survive attacks, it's a beautiful thing. This is, at its core, an intergral part of why we love X-Wing.

I don't hate repositioning, I think that reactive double repositioning is too hard a counter to too many ships. The list of upgrade cards I'd ban if I had the power is actually a fair bit longer than two and doesn't target just arc dodgers.

The blind maneuver dials are the core mechanic of the game and there's been a lot spilled ink even from FFG itself on this mechanic being what makes the game what it is. That's why PWT hate was such a big thing from Wave 2 right up until they died out: they took that away.

There's nothing wrong with repositioning itself but on the TIE fighter it was invented for it worked a bit differently: the adjustmest it allowed was fairly small and came at the price of not taking a modifier action.

Double repositioning is a different story: it lets you get out of arc if you're caught anywhere but dead centre. The TIE phantom's ability to do this to the point where a lower pilot skill ship simply can't fight it caused the PWT plague in the first place.

It's not correct anticipation that allows PTL Soontir to dodge: his ability to adjust his position from where he chose is simply so great and he can wriggle out of almost anywhere: unless he's blocked he isn't punished for his mistakes (and even then not always). Therefore the pressure to anticipate is much lower for him than it is for the ships that are thought of as less dodging-inclined. In many ways outmaneuvering with the less maneuverable ships is much more rewarding. The Wave 3 Worlds Final was a serious maneuvering match towards the end and that was basic TIEs versus AdvSen B-wings.

The A-wing was also thought to be glued to PTL until it turned out it wasn't. The existence of PTL and of other reactive double repositioners means non-PTL TIE interceptors have never been fully explored. How the TIE interceptor builds would change in a world where almost nobody could stack repositions is a fairly interesting discussion in of itself. It was originally designed without PTL addiction in mind after all and even ImpAces tried to give it other options.

Well thought and typed Blue Five; much more intelligent thread than most on this forum; congrats.....though I very respectively, and humbly disagree. My bane in X-Wing is the increasingly crazy personnel and card interactions that are befalling is...

My bane in X-Wing is the increasingly crazy personnel and card interactions that are befalling is...

How would removing two upgrade cards make that worse? A lot of those combos are based around PTL.

Personally, I'd rather see an X-Wing 2.0 before I see all the current cards nerfed into oblivion. If the game does indeed need a fix, I'd rather it have a complete surgery, rather than a few band-aids.

Personally, I'd rather see an X-Wing 2.0 before I see all the current cards nerfed into oblivion. If the game does indeed need a fix, I'd rather it have a complete surgery, rather than a few band-aids.

I think an X-Wing 2.0 is unlikely ever. Modus operandi for a 2.0 is quite literally from scratch rereleasing everything wave by wave. It would take four years to get back to our current number of ships and all the models would be resold.

It's much more likely in my view they'd make a fundamentally different game like they did with Armada.

As for nerfs, it's more pulling two easily removed pieces out in the hopes that the whole benefits.

Both these bans are aimed at good targets but the shots went wide. EU has influenced the meta on big ships. On small fry, it brings Vader to a point where he's maybe you're fifth favorite ace. PtL never made Soontir who he is now - that's Ats, Palp, and PtL.

I'd much sooner make EU cost more for big ships and tweak ATs before making these changes.

I'd much sooner make EU cost more for big ships and tweak ATs before making these changes.

Like add, "small ship only"?

How does banning eu help with stopping repositioning twice if ptl is banned? Only vader would be able to use eu like that

I dare you to make a list of every ship in the game that would gather dust without one or both of those upgrades.

I'd much sooner make EU cost more for big ships and tweak ATs before making these changes.

Like add, "small ship only"?

Too drastic, in my opinion. I think changing where the 1 template is placed on the ship would do the trick. It's been suggested many times before and I still think it's a good fix.

- For straight boosts, large ships lay the 1-straight template sideways, with one corner next to the maneuver guides. The ship is then picked up and placed such that the rear maneuver guide on the same side is now flush with the template. (My wordsmithing is failing, but I hope you get the idea. You boost with the template rotated 90 degrees.)

- For bank boosts, large ships place the template on the corner of the ship opposite the direction of the boost. So if a YV-666 is doing a right boost, it places the template along the front edge of the ship with the lower left corner of the template touching the front left corner of the ship. The ship is then picked up and placed so that the rear left corner of the ship is touching the front left edge of the template and the template is flush with the rear of the ship.

This change would mean that we are not using maneuver guides, which some people might have a problem with, but I argue that barrel rolls happen all the time and there are no maneuver guides used there.

I'd much sooner make EU cost more for big ships and tweak ATs before making these changes.

Like add, "small ship only"?

That'd retain small ship reactive double reposition which as it stands is a fairly hard counter to a lot of the pilots in the game.

What I'm looking for is problems that could arise from the removal of PTL and Engine Upgrade. Does their existence surpress a greater evil, so to speak? I'm fairly confident the TIE interceptor, Fang and TAP could all adapt to only having one action without support (like Fleet Officer or Hux) as the A-wing did and the Fang already does. The main one that springs to mind is TLT although with generic "jousting" no longer being hard countered I'm not sure TLT spam would hold up.

How does banning eu help with stopping repositioning twice if ptl is banned? Only vader would be able to use eu like that

You just said it yourself. If Vader retains that power then people will just use Vader and the hard counter remains. EU on a high PS PWT is similarly hard countery as PWTs have no facing worries. I originally considered just making boost and barrel roll mutually exclusive but removing EU and PTL fixes so many more problems. It also allows double reposition to continue to exist with the aid of other ships, which allows it to be counterplayed more effectively.

With PTL and EU removed the only ships that can double reposition without another ship's aid are ships with both native boost and native barrel roll running EI EH which is both more expensive and much more limited than PTL: it doesn't allow you to token stack when caught and requires the boost to come first.

I dare you to make a list of every ship in the game that would gather dust without one or both of those upgrades.

I'm not sure any would. The only ship that relies on PTL is the TIE interceptor and it only relies on it because the synergy is so strong it knows nothing else. It's never explored other upgrades. No ship relies on EU.

I'd actually argue that fewer ships would gather dust without the hard counter that extreme reactive repositioning is to them.

No ship relies on EU

Without an Engine Upgrade, how will the Millennium Falcon make the Kessel run in 12 parsecs?

But in all seriousness, I'm not quite sure where I fall on if I'd be okay with Push the Limit and EU removed from the game. The repositioning feels so good to do, but I do understand where it can cause frustrations.

Just for the sake of clarity, what ships are supposedly being hard countered by the likes of Fel and boosting turrets nowadays?

And if PWT's died (as someone claimed earlier) then explain the prevalence of Dengar.

Just for the sake of clarity, what ships are supposedly being hard countered by the likes of Fel and boosting turrets nowadays?

Any ship with inferior pilot skill that lacks a counter to it. Doesn't even have to be Fel: PTL Saber can do the same thing to PS3 down. Extreme PS dependent repositioning demands that the other list has built in a way to deal with it. Low pilot skill lists either have a huge alpha strike potential (such that one mistake is all it takes), damage dealing upgrades like BMST or Feedback Array or turrets and expanded arcs.

And if PWT's died (as someone claimed earlier) then explain the prevalence of Dengar.

The Decimator and Falcon were everywhere before TLT. Dengar is so arc dependent he's a bit less traditional PWT than the others. Not certain of the relevance though.

Just for the sake of clarity, what ships are supposedly being hard countered by the likes of Fel and boosting turrets nowadays?

Any ship with inferior pilot skill that lacks a counter to it. Extreme PS dependent repositioning demands that the other list has built in a way to deal with it. Low pilot skill lists either have a huge alpha strike potential (such that one mistake is all it takes), damage dealing upgrades like BMST or Feedback Array or turrets and expanded arcs.

And if PWT's died (as someone claimed earlier) then explain the prevalence of Dengar.

The Decimator and Falcon were everywhere before TLT. Dengar is so arc dependent he's a bit less traditional PWT than the others. Not certain of the relevance though.

I like this thought experiment. Lately I have been trying to make lists without using PTL because it can become such a crutch. It is hard to envision certain pilots or ships without PTL but once you try other cards and combos with them you may be surprised by how effective they are.

Couldn't the same be said for any top-tier list though? It's nearly impossible to beat the likes of Dengaroo, defenders, and double lothal without some form of counters. Removing hyper-repositioning from the game might help in theory, but the aforementioned lists like Dengaroo and such will still eat all the ships that were meant to be helped.

If I recall correctly Dengaroo is reliant on PTL on Manaroo, no?

Can't speak for the others but given they have no gimmick like infinite Zuckuss I'm not sure if they'd remain especially powerful in a reshaped meta. The TIE defender is probably never going to go away thanks to x7 but I haven't seen anything to suggest it's broken as opposed to simply good.

As for the Lothals, the VCX isn't that maneuverable. It works in the current meta because it resists alpha strikes and can punch through token stacks but I don't know how well it'd hold up to more traditional squads.

Couldn't the same be said for any top-tier list though? It's nearly impossible to beat the likes of Dengaroo, defenders, and double lothal without some form of counters. Removing hyper-repositioning from the game might help in theory, but the aforementioned lists like Dengaroo and such will still eat all the ships that were meant to be helped.

If I recall correctly Dengaroo is reliant on PTL on Manaroo, no?

Can't speak for the others but given they have no gimmick like infinite Zuckuss I'm not sure if they'd remain especially powerful in a reshaped meta. The TIE defender is probably never going to go away thanks to x7 but I haven't seen anything to suggest it's broken as opposed to simply good.

As for the Lothals, the VCX isn't that maneuverable. It works in the current meta because it resists alpha strikes and can punch through token stacks but I don't know how well it'd hold up to more traditional squads.