I think a bunch of our complaining about X-Wing, Punisher, Kiraxeseraxes, etc. could be eliveated in tandem with our desire to see more generics in the game in an over-arching upgrade card. In addition, this could really simplify a part of the game that could be incredibly fun to play and competitive.

Squad cards that are open to all factions and small based ships that reduce the overall costs based on restrictions using generic ships with no named personnel (or beloved cannon droids), no Expert talents, in the squad. This might have been already proposed....if so, sorry 'bout that.

Thoughts?

So essentially a squad upgrade that rewards you with point cost reductions if you dumb down the game as much as possible?

That'd just result in the most points efficient generic being spammed. It'd be TIE swarm versus TIE swarm versus TIE swarm again.

Yeah, generics are worse off currently then they have ever been in this game (barring a few exceptions of course). Some people like it that way, maybe, but still, it would be nice if the 'nobodies' of x-wing had a little something to increase their jousting value. At least that's the way I see it.

There's really no point in trying to give say, the T-65 better positional power. Its only going to help the higher PS pilots more than the lower PS ones.

So to me, the best solution is to create a card that only benefits low PS ships and can be put on any ship, regardless of faction (because its the PS 1 and 2 ships that need it the most, really). It would be a card that is cheap (because these ships are meant to be flown en masse) and it would have to either increase durability or firepower (or perhaps both?) so that they have good enough jousting efficiency such that they can actually stand a chance against the slew of hyper durable and/or hyper hard-to-hit and/or hyper high damage alpha-strike lists that are currently possible these days.

Its certainly something I've been thinking about (and I'm sure others too). If I win Worlds one day, its definitely the card I want to design! Assuming FFG lets me get away with it of course....the biggest problem is it would have to be a title or perhaps a new type of card that can be taken on any generic ship regardless of faction...

but still, it would be nice if the 'nobodies' of x-wing had a little something to increase their jousting value.

Tie Fighters already have a great jousting value... So anything that makes them even better stands a very real risk of making them broken, and return us to a meta of nothing but Tie Swarms.

A big part of the reason we're where we're at right now is because for the first 3 or 4 waves people wanted Aces to actually be worth taking, because they weren't.

You could argue that we've gone too far the other way, but I'm not sure how true that really is. World last year was won in large part by Generics and the Contracted Scouts were also generics. Palp generally rides around in a generic shuttle as well.

Vaguely similar ideas have been raised in the past. Some ideas I specifically remember were essentially theme lists from warmachine/hordes, giving you bonuses for using specific ships or builds. I have a couple of issues with this approach that I think would have to be analyzed closely:

1) it's an added layer of complexity in what can already be a deceptively complex game that paradoxically prides itself on simplicity. Pretty much exactly the same problem that warmachine/horses had (besides balancing), which leads us to:

2) balancing. Making it generic and across all generics will inherently help some ships more than others. A flat points reduction will assist earlier, more overpriced ships than later, more fairly priced ones. For example, if you just shave off points from the Khiraxz and the T-65, the Khiraxz is still better.

3) how would you do it? 5 cartel marauders is exactly 100 points. Is your idea to give them a 4 point decrease across the board so you can fly 6 of them? Don't get me wrong, 18 red dice a turn is pretty sexy, but probably not the best thing for game balance. What else? A cheap mod? Once again, 5 cartels with a shield or hull upgrade (or even vectored thrusters) could start to get a little crazy. Cheap munitions? The inherent problems with munitions on low PS pilots start to show up again, especially without EPTs. A point reduction has to be significant to get anything of real value out of it, and the more significant the point reduction, the more risk to game balance.

I mean, I'm not entirely opposed to the idea (if you look at as a spectrum from 'great idea, do it!' to 'no, never!' I'm just passed the middle towards no), but there are a lot of things to work out first. Otherwise, I would relish flying 5 blue squadrons instead of that stupid bandit. Enjoy my 15 attack dice and 40 health to eat through. Or 4 AS blues with a Z as a blocker.

A number of months ago I proposed a similar idea, I'm sure I stole it from somewhere.

The twist I suggested was to make the Squad bonuses of limited time for tournament purposes. For example, 6 months. This would be the opposite of "banning" certain lists to warp the meta. It would encourage experimentation but up to a point, and it would give the developers some actually live-fire data to use for play balancing purposes.

It's a real problem, and has been for years. Competitively speaking, FFG might as well save some money and not bother printing pilot cards and ship bases for almost every generic in the game. Outside of a few outliers like Palp Shuttles, they're all useless. I have been running the numbers on this specific problem for quite some time, and unfortunately there is not a one-card-fits-all solution. If FFG wants to restore balance to the generics without simultaneously inflating the power curve, they are going to have to touch up nearly every single expansion in the game.

So essentially a squad upgrade that rewards you with point cost reductions if you dumb down the game as much as possible?

That'd just result in the most points efficient generic being spammed. It'd be TIE swarm versus TIE swarm versus TIE swarm again.

Unfortunately the game already IS the most point efficient lists being spammed against each other, they just don't happen to be generics. Conversely, if generics can't reposition, joust, or exert control, then why should FFG even bother designing them?

As for it "dumbing the game down", I'm sure highly successfully swarm players like Dallas Parker or BlairBunke would disagree.

You could try to design a card that is "Squadron" Pilots Only. Leaves Scum out in the cold though.

the only real solution here is to stop introducing ships that only trade dice

given the simplicity of ffg's statline in X-wing (as opposed to like Armada), there will always be a top jousting dog and the rest are just going to suck

you really need more things such as bombs that ignore dice trades entirely and make even horrible terrifyingly inefficient ships like the Warden Squadron Pilot worth using

more unique capabilities given via ship-restrictive titles would also be a good idea, which is something FFG is implementing more and more with wave 9 (Stuff like Concord Dawn and Alliance Overhaul, less so like Shadowcaster) and is continuing this trend with the U and Striker

people say we're hitting the limits of design space, but imo the statline design space was filled up the moment the Tie Fighter hit and dominated until the phantom's rather bonkers arc-dodging came to be

the only real solution here is to stop introducing ships that only trade dice

given the simplicity of ffg's statline in X-wing (as opposed to like Armada), there will always be a top jousting dog and the rest are just going to suck

you really need more things such as bombs that ignore dice trades entirely and make even horrible terrifyingly inefficient ships like the Warden Squadron Pilot worth using

more unique capabilities given via ship-restrictive titles would also be a good idea, which is something FFG is implementing more and more with wave 9 (Stuff like Concord Dawn and Alliance Overhaul, less so like Shadowcaster) and is continuing this trend with the U and Striker

people say we're hitting the limits of design space, but imo the statline design space was filled up the moment the Tie Fighter hit and dominated until the phantom's rather bonkers arc-dodging came to be

The first point that makes generics bad is what FGD says, there will always be a (few) top jousters.

Second: The concept of Arc-Dodgers pretty much needs PS 8 or more, so like 1/3 of the ships have bad generics by default. Remember some fat turrets are actually arc dodgers.

Third: Most turret ships are priced in a way, that the extra 5-8 points you get by taking generics over high-PS pilots cannot be spent on better upgrades. Most fat turret lists have all useful slots occupied and can fit a nice escort.

The second problem cant really be fixed I guess.

The third problem would require fat turrets to be even better but costier.

I really think a Thematic build condition needs to be explored. There are so few examples of Thematic builds that even approach competitive play ability. You could argue that most are upgrade card spam and only see the table as a squadron out of happen stance. Gold Squadron TLT or ABT are one example. 5x 20 point Green Squadron A wings are another. The only real list that might be competitive that I have ever been able to come up with was Omega Squadron. OL with 4 crack shot Omega tie/fo. And that I am not even sure is competitive. And it may not be possible without creating a sub format of the tournament.

I think there's plenty of design space for titles or modifications that help generics.

A couple examples off the top of my head:

Squad Comlink modification (0 points)

If a friendly ship with the same pilot as you has Squad Comlink increase your agility by 1.

Helps generics of the same type, but doesn't scale with the number of duplicate generics (no "for each...") so you don't have massive bonuses to big swarms just cause the ships are cheaper. Still might be too strong for TIEs but not strong enough for B-wings or something, but it's a start.

Targeting Network modification (0 points)

You may acquire target locks on enemy ships within range 3 from any friendly ship with the same pilot as you.

Again helps generics of the same type, but the benefit to an individual ship is greater if the generics are spread out. Only helps things with target locks too, so no TIE fighters.

Emergency Strike Force title (1 point)

When attacking an enemy with a pilot skill greater than yours by over 3, you may re-roll 1 blank.

Doesn't affect swarm v swarm, but lets generics have a little more umph against aces, even without a 'squad' of generics together.

Brotherhood title (1 point)

When the number of Damage cards assigned to you equals or exceeds your hull value, if you are within range 1 of a friendly ship with the same pilot as you, you are not destroyed until the end of the Combat phase.

Lets generics of the same type run in pairs or larger squads well and mitigates a drawback of having low PS.

The reason there are not a ton of generics in the game is because they are not as fun....

Hate to break it to you but the abilities of unique pilots are allot of fun and push comes to shove you pick the ship that is more fun.

As for the actually strength of the ship, well there are lots of strong generics already and since i really enjoy playing formations of identical ships i actually do put them on the board. I came in 2nd place at my regionals running 4x tie advanced prototypes for example. I also just got absolutely destroyed this weekend running 4x tie sf with fire control but i think its because i flew like a sack of potatoes not because the list is weak.

What you are proposing would indeed push generics over the top... as of right now everything feels very balanced that is why you end up seeing more aces because they are more fun when everything else is equal.

Frankly i do not think there is this desire to see more generics that you speak of, sure a subset of people but most people like to take heros that do cool things (at least in my opinion and observation), I am generally one of the few people who fly clumps of generic ships and even I do not have a need to see more of it.

I really think a Thematic build condition needs to be explored. There are so few examples of Thematic builds that even approach competitive play ability. You could argue that most are upgrade card spam and only see the table as a squadron out of happen stance. Gold Squadron TLT or ABT are one example. 5x 20 point Green Squadron A wings are another. The only real list that might be competitive that I have ever been able to come up with was Omega Squadron. OL with 4 crack shot Omega tie/fo. And that I am not even sure is competitive. And it may not be possible without creating a sub format of the tournament.

What your asking for is to actually limit what we see on the board, by putting in Thematic build conditions you are then prioritizing certain builds thus every other build is now weaker. Your builds should build on there own synergies not have it forced down your throat or all we will every see is the top thematic condition list as it gets a boost for no logical reason. And i am not just talking competitive i am talking casual, its allot more fun casually if you can do whatever you want without some arbitrary restriction or advantage to something else.

If you want to build thematic go ahead, but don't advocate for a system to force it down on everyone.

I don't want to say this is something that is "wrong" with the X-wing community, but as somebody relatively newish to the hobby, it's definitely an issue. People in the community love to make broad, sweeping statements without any kind of clarification and just act like whatever they say is a cold hard fact (which is silly since the game is based in uncertainty. Obviously I get strong lists and players chip away at this uncertainty, but because of that you cannot logically say how things WILL happen until after they happen, you can only say what should "probably" happen). Stuff like "generics suck", "this entire ship is DOA - no I haven't played it", "this card is overcosted, that card is undercosted" or "This card is too complex". Sometimes it seems like people get it too much in their head there is a way things "should" be and won't let others tell them different.

TIE Swarms are still pretty top tier. As are A-Wing swarms. Generic large-base ships are pretty common to get access to the upgrade bar at the minimum price. I see people using small, cheap generics like Ys, Z-95s etc as filler all the time. Now, obviously there are ships period which are not optimal, and in some cases you only see the unique variants because they have abilities which are very useful. That's more an issue with a ship itself rather than its generics, and trying to go "we want to see more generics, but generics are ****, let's fix all generics" is probably not a good design direction to take. Why does FFG "waste cardboard" printing generics? Well, y'know, some people don't play hyper-optimized top-tier tournament games, and they buy minis too. Let's not get elitist about our tiny plastic spaceships - not every card needs to be perfectly designed to be of maximum value in the competitive space - though obviously it helps if at least some of the cards are.

On the subject, to fix "generic" ships of certain classes, probably a broader "fix" which takes more after the design in later waves is needed, titles or mods which give the ship a certain flair or utility it didn't have before which can be applied to all ships of that class, but obviously some high PS type ships may not take because it doesn't fit their common build. If you want to do generic enhancements, probably gonna need to faction lock them. Give scum a cool incentive to swarm it up a little, give Rebels a different one. Imperials already have a competitive build which involves a lot of generics and you don't want to accidentally boost something already pretty good.

It's a real problem, and has been for years. Competitively speaking, FFG might as well save some money and not bother printing pilot cards and ship bases for almost every generic in the game. Outside of a few outliers like Palp Shuttles, they're all useless. I have been running the numbers on this specific problem for quite some time, and unfortunately there is not a one-card-fits-all solution. If FFG wants to restore balance to the generics without simultaneously inflating the power curve, they are going to have to touch up nearly every single expansion in the game.

So essentially a squad upgrade that rewards you with point cost reductions if you dumb down the game as much as possible?

That'd just result in the most points efficient generic being spammed. It'd be TIE swarm versus TIE swarm versus TIE swarm again.

Unfortunately the game already IS the most point efficient lists being spammed against each other, they just don't happen to be generics. Conversely, if generics can't reposition, joust, or exert control, then why should FFG even bother designing them?

As for it "dumbing the game down", I'm sure highly successfully swarm players like Dallas Parker or BlairBunke would disagree.

Note the plural in "lists" and the absence of a plural in "most efficient generic." The meta'd become more homogenous than Wave 3.

And who says it'd be a TIE swarm? It might be five X-wings or something.

I'm sure highly successfully swarm players like Dallas Parker or BlairBunke would disagree.

Are either of their lists free of both upgrade cards and the unique dot?

The reason there are not a ton of generics in the game is because they are not as fun....

Hate to break it to you but the abilities of unique pilots are allot of fun and push comes to shove you pick the ship that is more fun.

Competitive players approach list design from the reverse perspective: you use the most broken overpowered ships and combos that can keep up with all the other broken overpowered combos.

Generics don't qualify so they sit on the shelf, it has nothing to do with the list being "fun". Personally I really enjoy flying jousty control lists on occasion, but they're just not viable with generics.

What about a mod of the following sort:

System Jammer

Mod Slot

0 Cost

Once per round, after an enemy ship has completed a maneuver inside your firing arc at R1-2, you may select an action on its upgrade bar. That action cannot be performed this round. If you equip this card in your squad, you may not use any unique cards. You cannot equip this card if your PS is greater than 4.

And perhaps you can couple it with an EPT:

Empty Comms

EPT Slot

0 Cost

You may ignore all the effects of System Jammer except the Pilot Skill restriction.

That way you can have a Squad Leader such as Luke leading a group of Rookies equipped with the System Jammer, but he has to give up his EPT to do so.

But really, the main point of the card would be to lock down arc dodging. Let's be honest - the largest problem low PS ships have is getting a shot on an arc dodger. The second problem is making that shot count - you typically have to have several ships trained on it to make any damage stick. This would allow a flight of 4 X wings to catch Soontir Fel at R1-2 (perhaps it should just be R1?), and each one of them could deny a different action - F, E, BR, Bst, leaving him without a way to stress himself, and therefore without any tokens to modify his defense - though to be fair, what kind of idiot flies Fel right into the arc of 4 X wings? Anyone who does SHOULD pay the ultimate price - and this would really ensure that he does.

This could potentially be overpowered on Z-95s / TIE Fighters though. Perhaps there needs to be a primary weapon restriction of 3 or higher? Or perhaps there needs to be a downside of using the ability - something like "if you do restrict an action, reduce the number of attack dice you roll this turn by 1" or something (phrased it that way so TLT Y wings about the reduction).

Note the plural in "lists" and the absence of a plural in "most efficient generic." The meta'd become more homogenous than Wave 3.

Citation please.

I'm sure highly successfully swarm players like Dallas Parker or BlairBunke would disagree.

Are either of their lists free of both upgrade cards and the unique dot?

I don't understand how that is particularly relevant to the discussion? In referring to "TIE Swarm v TIE Swarm v TIE Swarm" the implication is the inclusion of Howlrunner. Likewise rebel lists would almost certainly include the stresshog.

But really, the main point of the card would be to lock down arc dodging. Let's be honest - the largest problem low PS ships have is getting a shot on an arc dodger. The second problem is making that shot count - you typically have to have several ships trained on it to make any damage stick.

See, that's where I have to disagree. There is nothing inherently wrong with 'arc-dodging'. It takes skill for a player to predict opponent dial choices, and if a player uses an arc-dodger well (by dodging arcs) he should be rewarded for skillful play (by not getting shot). The real problem is when a skillful player using a jousting list (say 4 x-wings) makes the right play and covers potential moves thus ensuring he has shots on said arc-dodger, but cannot deal any damage due to the insane damage mitigation that is possible on some ships.

So I think all that is needed is a card that allows low PS ships that catch a hard-to-hit ace in their arc the ability to push damage through that insane mitigation. This type of card does not 'punish' a player in the list-building stage but rewards the player that exhibits the better prediction skills. That route seems much more healthier (and ultimately more enjoyable) for the game (in my humble opinion).

It's a real problem, and has been for years. Competitively speaking, FFG might as well save some money and not bother printing pilot cards and ship bases for almost every generic in the game. Outside of a few outliers like Palp Shuttles, they're all useless.

Generics work best in Epic. My only complaint about generics in this format is that each ship type needs a Veteran pilot with an EPT slot to allow some thematic customization.

I really think a Thematic build condition needs to be explored. There are so few examples of Thematic builds that even approach competitive play ability. You could argue that most are upgrade card spam and only see the table as a squadron out of happen stance. Gold Squadron TLT or ABT are one example. 5x 20 point Green Squadron A wings are another. The only real list that might be competitive that I have ever been able to come up with was Omega Squadron. OL with 4 crack shot Omega tie/fo. And that I am not even sure is competitive. And it may not be possible without creating a sub format of the tournament.

Agreed. I think that "mono-ship" generic builds could see more play if they were boosted by Squadron Effects.

Omega Squadron does do fairly well as a unit, especially since I played them at the 300 point level.

Competitively speaking, FFG might as well save some money and not bother printing pilot cards and ship bases for almost every generic in the game. Outside of a few outliers like Palp Shuttles, they're all useless.

Surprised to hear you say this of all people. TorpScouts was a thing up to a few weeks ago. TLT spam is all PS2 Y-wings. The generics are more cost efficient so people tend to go with them if there isn't A: a pilot ability they want or B: they need the pilot skill. It's in many ways the mid skill pilots that are suffering.

The problem generics and mid-skill pilots have is the pilot skill mechanic, or rather what it's become. Say what you like about Wave 1's balance but the ships all were capable of getting shots on each other: the anticipation game was fairly strong then. The mistakes that would return to bite everyone were in Wave 2.

It's fairly obvious from the existence of Expose that Wave 2 was not treated with the rigour that later waves were. Wave 2 introduced PTL, a card that's warped the game ever since its release, Deadeye, a card that discarded the design used for firing ordnance, the 360 Firing Arc, a design that all but negated the planning phase for one player with respect to that ship and effectively removed a ship from the same wave as a viable option for a long time and added a second reposition action. Did they not think it would go on the TIE interceptor and create double reposition?

The same mistake was made in Wave 4: faced with generics and the TIE swarm choking out ace pilots the TIE phantom was designed: a repositioning god that countered generics so hard it flipped the metagame on its head. The game started to become less about maneuvering choices and more about stats: if you screwed up your maneuver you could correct it if you had a high pilot skill and double reposition actions. The simpler generics couldn't compete with the TIE interceptor or TIE phantom because even with near perfect anticipation you can't get a shot on it. I worked it out once and for a Rookie Pilot to get a shot on Soontir he needs to be caught at almost dead centre range 2. Otherwise he'll just dodge out of it. Echo and Whisper before they were errated could dial in a hard 1 and dodge pretty much anything at lower PS than them.

Eight or nine waves later that's where we are: the generics that thrive are the ones that have alpha strike potential and/or 360 firing arcs. Otherwise it's bid as close to 9 as you can.

The way to "fix the game" in the sense of restoring viability to more pilots is to nerf Pilot Skill itself and that's pretty hard to do at this stage. It needs to be reasonably possible to outmaneuver a higher PS ship.

There are a number of ways we could do that but all are fairly extreme and none particularly elegant.

I don't understand how that is particularly relevant to the discussion? In referring to "TIE Swarm v TIE Swarm v TIE Swarm" the implication is the inclusion of Howlrunner. Likewise rebel lists would almost certainly include the stresshog.

Because the entire premise of this thread is a squad upgrade card that discounts generics if you run no named pilots or unique cards.

flying ARCs, I've had very little issue with high PS arc-dodgers (then again, two arcs, but eh)

now, Braylen completely pisses in their porridge it's true, but where he's utterly essential is in locking down defensive tokens far more so than their arc-dodging

the reason I've stopped playing standard jousters (a while ago) is that they're just generally way too subject to the whims of dice, while the top competitive lists largely are not

no matter how well you fly your low PS generics, if you don't obliterate that bumped Fel on that perfectly orchestrated turn, well you're just one lucky naked green dice roll away from losing the game right then and there

because, every other turn, odds are you're not dealing any damage and you're taking damage

because you don't have guaranteed defenses

just useless ass green dice

give me a conner Warden over a non x7 generic any goddamn day

the only other generic that's come close to usable for me is the Gamma Vet. These little bastards hit hard and incredibly reliably with the ordnance modifications and epts for crackshot or deadeye and homing missiles (zip right through evades)

problem is, once again, if your opponent gets lucky enough to more or less weather your ordnance...you're just ******

Competitively speaking, FFG might as well save some money and not bother printing pilot cards and ship bases for almost every generic in the game. Outside of a few outliers like Palp Shuttles, they're all useless.

Surprised to hear you say this of all people. TorpScouts was a thing up to a few weeks ago. TLT spam is all PS2 Y-wings. The generics are more cost efficient so people tend to go with them if there isn't A: a pilot ability they want or B: they need the pilot skill. It's in many ways the mid skill pilots that are suffering.

Emphasis added -- we're saying the same thing. Generics being useful is the exception not the rule, and it's never because the ships by themselves are cost efficient enough, they always have some other capability.

• Jumpmasters: torp insanity now nerfed
• Shuttle: Palp
• Y-wings: TLT
• Ghosts: ABT

I have talked about TLT for a long time and how it is blatant power creep. Before AceWing fully became a thing, it was TLT that first pushed the vanilla generics out of the game.

Everything else in your post, I agree. Unfortunately designing a balanced game is hard for FFG, or any other gaming company.

I don't understand how that is particularly relevant to the discussion? In referring to "TIE Swarm v TIE Swarm v TIE Swarm" the implication is the inclusion of Howlrunner. Likewise rebel lists would almost certainly include the stresshog.

Because the entire premise of this thread is a squad upgrade card that discounts generics if you run no named pilots or unique cards.

Ah, right, I actually missed that, ha!

I would expect if something like this were ever implemented, it could be done as a generic-only title card that wouldn't prevent you from taking named pilots, but only generics with the title would synergize with each other.