Let me also pose this- It does indeed really suck when a big attack fails from a dodge. Seriously, that's not a fun feeling.

HOWEVER, how does it feel when you successfully dodge an attack? Does it feel like you're cheating the game? Does it feel broken? Or does it feel like a rare and fortuitous respite from a looming attack?

That's the thing about multiplayer games- sometimes, someone loses. Now, truly brutal mechanics can sometimes not be fun (for instance, Eldritch Horror's Carcosa inhibit abilities mechanic that serves nothing but to decay characters ability to play the game) but a single dice side that makes one player truly happy and the other upset is far from broken. I get the sour grapes, but just remember the times it's actually worked in your favor, and remember- each team gets units with white die. It's balanced at least in that regard.

Generally when I dodge or my opponent dodges, nobody comes away feeling satisfied with the game. Obviously you'll be happy you got an advantage, but it takes away from the overall enjoyment of the game in the end. It doesn't have to be dodge either. If I roll max damage every time and he gets crap, that is pretty dumb as well. Those kinds of things take away from everything else I did during the game and make it all about the dice rolls.

Again, the developers are making it clear that they agree there is too much variance in the game by adding cards/figures that even it out. It's a step in the right direction, and I hope to see more of it.

Honestly, there could be no prizes, and I'd still feel the same way about the variance being a huge negative in regards to competitive play.

My last game I had 1 dodge in 12 rolls. My opponent had 5 dodges in 7.

A single game, unless there is nearly 1,000 rolls in it, means nothing, and is not prove of anything, especially how much randomness there is in a single side of a single d6.

You've done nothing to address my point that the likelihood of this sort of game coming up is far too high.

In reality is should never come up because the dodge result shouldn't have gotten past testing. But they don't even use the dice to test with.

Says who? Most miniatures games have an auto-hit and/or auto-miss mechanic. And honestly, you'd see a lot more dodges in a dice deck. 2 in 12, without fail, not a "probability number." Every 12 draws of the white dice deck will contain 2 dodges. They could be just as unforgiving as a random roll.

Huh? Giving you the average isn't as unforgiving as a random roll, it's average.

In 12 attacks there is about an 11% chance your opponent rolls 0 dodges, and about a 13% chance they roll 4 or more.

A game where 1/3 of your attacks miss or a game where every attack hits are dramatically different games and about a quarter of games falls into one of these two categories. This is particularly true where the hit means the model leaves the board and can't attack back while a dodge means it will get one or more attacks in.

Honestly 1/4 of games being that swingy isn't all that great, but that isn't as bad as it can get either. You're rolling defense too. If the opponent ends up dodging 1/3 of the time and you end up never dodging, you're pretty much getting crushed regardless of what decisions you make, basically the game has just decided you're a loser and you're losing and screw you. That will happen about 2% of the time. Which I've played enough games to have that or close to it happen several times. And that could have been avoided with a more sensible result on that one face.

your math is way off, but I can see that no amount of stats is going to change your mind. Never mind that rolling a blank is just as swingy or the fact that you have figures with the white die. Never mind that there is more to the game than pulling out dice and rolling them in a random pattern or order.

Why does everyone think rolling a blank is just so super swingy when it is only 1 damage difference? The paired side on the black die would be 1 block.

Let me also pose this- It does indeed really suck when a big attack fails from a dodge. Seriously, that's not a fun feeling.

HOWEVER, how does it feel when you successfully dodge an attack? Does it feel like you're cheating the game? Does it feel broken? Or does it feel like a rare and fortuitous respite from a looming attack?

That's the thing about multiplayer games- sometimes, someone loses. Now, truly brutal mechanics can sometimes not be fun (for instance, Eldritch Horror's Carcosa inhibit abilities mechanic that serves nothing but to decay characters ability to play the game) but a single dice side that makes one player truly happy and the other upset is far from broken. I get the sour grapes, but just remember the times it's actually worked in your favor, and remember- each team gets units with white die. It's balanced at least in that regard.

Generally when I dodge or my opponent dodges, nobody comes away feeling satisfied with the game. Obviously you'll be happy you got an advantage, but it takes away from the overall enjoyment of the game in the end. It doesn't have to be dodge either. If I roll max damage every time and he gets crap, that is pretty dumb as well. Those kinds of things take away from everything else I did during the game and make it all about the dice rolls.

Again, the developers are making it clear that they agree there is too much variance in the game by adding cards/figures that even it out. It's a step in the right direction, and I hope to see more of it.

Honestly, there could be no prizes, and I'd still feel the same way about the variance being a huge negative in regards to competitive play.

Well that's certainly interesting. I'm not saying anecdotal evidence is worth much either way, but I'd be interested to see how others felt as well.

I know that personally, a dodge is a minor celebration for the player who rolled it in my groups. But maybe we're the fringe, who knows!?

Well that's certainly interesting. I'm not saying anecdotal evidence is worth much either way, but I'd be interested to see how others felt as well.

I have won a game in a very competitive environment by rolling three dodges in a row with an Imperial Officer (OK, including rerolls). Actually I felt bad about this victory. It somehow felt like I didn't deserve this ...

Quoted for truth:

Honestly, there could be no prizes, and I'd still feel the same way about the variance being a huge negative in regards to competitive play.

Well that's certainly interesting. I'm not saying anecdotal evidence is worth much either way, but I'd be interested to see how others felt as well.

I have won a game in a very competitive environment by rolling three dodges in a row with an Imperial Officer (OK, including rerolls). Actually I felt bad about this victory. It somehow felt like I didn't deserve this ...

Quoted for truth:

Honestly, there could be no prizes, and I'd still feel the same way about the variance being a huge negative in regards to competitive play.

I've had that happen to me where I felt downright dirty when rolling the X multiple times in a match.

But it's also happened against me plenty of times.

Honestly 1/4 of games being that swingy isn't all that great, but that isn't as bad as it can get either. You're rolling defense too. If the opponent ends up dodging 1/3 of the time and you end up never dodging, you're pretty much getting crushed regardless of what decisions you make, basically the game has just decided you're a loser and you're losing and screw you. That will happen about 2% of the time. Which I've played enough games to have that or close to it happen several times. And that could have been avoided with a more sensible result on that one face.

your math is way off, but I can see that no amount of stats is going to change your mind. Never mind that rolling a blank is just as swingy or the fact that you have figures with the white die. Never mind that there is more to the game than pulling out dice and rolling them in a random pattern or order.

My math is fine. There is a very simple way to prove me wrong... it's called math.

And no, the blank isn't swingy. Again, math.

You guys do realize that there's no way in hell FFG will change the white dice and reprint half of the game because some people don't like dodge right?

This discussion has now gone round in circles 3 times and is utterly pointless.

Yes a dodge sucks, yes it feels bad to roll it and have it rolled against you. No it won't change. It's part of the game. Learn to play around it. Go play lots of HKs, ISBs and the Inquisitor so you don't have to worry about dodges.

At this stage, if you don't like it that much, go play something else.

You guys do realize that there's no way in hell FFG will change the white dice and reprint half of the game because some people don't like dodge right?

Who said they should do that? There are other ways to get around the issue, like giving it a different effect for the Skirmish via the FAQ. People not using the FAQ are not playing competitively anyway and in campaign it's not a bad thing and they can work around it in other ways.

Who said they should do that? There are other ways to get around the issue, like giving it a different effect for the Skirmish via the FAQ. People not using the FAQ are not playing competitively anyway and in campaign it's not a bad thing and they can work around it in other ways.

They have so much skin in the game regarding dodge now between the default way it works, context on multiple deployment cards and command cards, that having it be anything other than what it is would be a significant re-work.

You guys do realize that there's no way in hell FFG will change the white dice and reprint half of the game because some people don't like dodge right?

Who said they should do that? There are other ways to get around the issue, like giving it a different effect for the Skirmish via the FAQ. People not using the FAQ are not playing competitively anyway and in campaign it's not a bad thing and they can work around it in other ways.

While not a competitive tournament environment with prizes on the line, it still is bad for campaign. It doesn't matter too much for Empire (who infrequently hit for more than 4 wounds) but for Rebels, losing a mission because you can't hit the two officers cowering behind each other who are beside that terminal you need clear is pretty unfun. You get enough games decided by dodge or failing required attribute tests and you stop playing the game and go on to something else where your decisions matter and you aren't wasting 2 hours to have a game decided by a coin flip.

There are very few missions where defeating Imperial Officers is the mission objective. Even those that require that do not decide the campaign.

To me, it's all about mitigating the impact of my opponent's possible Dodge roll, that becomes exciting. This is probably due to the aforementioned Blood Bowl background. Using the right figures for the right task, and this is where IA becomes an incredibly positional game. I definitely think that any good squad should have a way around the Dodge, or at least accept the risk you take, by not having a way around. At this moment in the game, there are so many opportunities to get around it: HKs and the Weequeys reroll. The Deadly ability on ISB/Inquisitor. Direct damage. Indirect damage through Blast and Cleave. Multiple Command Cards. If you haven't thought about the dreaded X-man, in a competitive squad, I'll say it's your own fault.

Make sure your heavy hitters primarily target Black die figures if at all possible. Use multiple (smaller) sources of damage against White die figures. Obviously wasting Vaders powerful attack on C-3PO isn't looking very epic, but it also looks like a bad decision (in general terms). I would definitely like the game less, if the Dodge was just a 3-Block and I prefer to field Black die figures myself. Hell, one of my favorites are the Hired Guns. They can't even dodge at all... take that you ISB scum.

One thing to consider too, is that with some exceptions (like Luke) most White Die figures have lower health than Black Die ones- after all, a common interpretation of the two is White=light, Black=Heavy. Now, to seperate this interpretation from the alternative "White=squishy, Black=Good", we're going to have to have some sort of benefit to light armor. In many RPGs and video games, light armor grants speed bonuses. In this game, it grants a possibility of dodging an attack.

Luckily, this should balance itself out relatively well. A figure is statistically far more likely to roll something other than a dodge, so chances are that the weaker white die rolls (including the completely blank one) will even out the damage that wasn't dealt when a dodge was rolled- or, perhaps a dodge will actually benefit a player at some points, too (which is fine, it's a [very] minor accomplishment to pull off).

And as aermet points out, due to this lower health, you don't necessarily need to focus all of your heavy firepower on the white die characters. Maybe it's not a bad idea to use that AT-ST to attack Biv, and hit Loku with your two stormtrooper squads. If you can't deal some damage on both of them at that point, you're just seeing some apocalyptic bad luck. All this calls for is a little strategy- you don't even need to rely on HKs or ISB.

edit: Oh hey, it looks like user Rythbryt posted a pretty cool article here about probability that includes a link to a nifty probability app.

I haven't even used it yet, but let's run a little experiment. Let's say we have rStormtroopers with a blue and green die, a surge with damage, and a surge with +2 accuracy. Pretty average troop type.

If I'm using this app correctly, here's roughly what it looks like against a white die:

80% chance to do at least 1 damage

65% chance to do at least 2 damage

35% chance to do at least 3 damage

9(? had a hard time reading it)% chance to do at least 4 damage

Here are those same stats against a black die:

83% chance to do at least 1 damage

55% chance to do at least 2 damage

22% chance to do at least 3 damage

3% chance to do at least 4 damage

So, as I'm sure most of us could've predicted, the black die prevented significantly more damage, and ( though I'm certainly no statistician) I assume that's also even taking into account the dodge roll.

Also, as stated earlier, black dice figures typically would have more health than white dice ones.

Just food for thought (and if I somehow screwed up the stats or app here, I apologize).

Maybe it is possible there is just too much damage now, and two many characters with pierce, so when someone gets their min-max squad all prepped up after hours of research, the dodge of their super-duper attacks becomes unbearable. 3 blocks can be easily mitigated, but that dodge, that's just not fair. I'm sorry for the snark, but I literally just can't see the problem with it. Of course it is frustrating, just like rolling a 1 was frustrating in Star Wars minis. As has been pointed out many times, on average, white dice characters take more damage, and have less hit points. The dodge evens it out. If it wasn't dodge it would be some other complaint when one player thinks they are superior to another player but lose anyway.

I guess that most people have seen the wonderful post here https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/233951-the-galaxys-fate-in-my-hand-an-ia-probability-compendium/

Now that there is a more 'mathematical' basis for comparison, perhaps the impact of the dodge could be quantified more completely.

I posit that black and white dice are effectively of equal worth for the majority of regular and elite attacks. However, for unique characters' high impact attacks, the dodge becomes excessively powerful.

My thought is that if someone expands on the rStormtrooper example above, with eStormtrooper, RGC and High Inquisitor, then we'll clearly see that:

1. Black and White dice are similar for both r and eStormtrooopers

2. White dice are far more effective against RGC

3. High Inquisitor's Deadly ability evens out the black and white defence dice

Of course, the maths could prove me wrong!

I'll leave this here so people can run some attacks on their own to see why that is true:

http://mattyellen.github.io/imperial-assault-calculator/

It depends on the attack. The harder the attack, the better the white die. The weaker the attack, the better the black die. The point of break even is around the elite Stormtroopers attack. Everyone attacking harder than an elite Stormtrooper hates white dice, everyone attacking weaker than an elite Stormtrooper loves white dice.

Please actually use the calculator instead of saying "I feel like black is better than white in scenario X".

Actually, I did.

And just from the math of it, this should be obvious. The more damage the attacker rolls, the better is a dodge. The less damage the attacker rolls, the worse is a blank.

E.g.: The attacker rolls 8 damage. A defending elite Stormtrooper rolls a black die and is dead in any case. A defending Officer rolls a dodge and effectively blocks 8 damage.

E.g.: The attacker rolls 2 damage and a surge for 1 damage. A defending regular Stormtrooper can't be killed by the attack. A defending Officer rolls a blank and is dead.

Use the calculator.

Example 1: RRY (Surge: 2 Damage) vs B / RRY (Surge: 2 Damage) vs W

Example 1: BY (Surge: 1 Damage) vs B / BY (Surge: 1 Damage) vs W

For what it's worth, the stats Subtrendy posted look accurate to me. A non-surge dependent unit like rStormtroopers are the sort of unit that can fare well against the white die's other 5 faces, because they can push their damage ceiling thru (4D) even if the white rolls an Evade (which it usually does). These stats are also likely to improve with Squad Training's selective reroll (i.e., rerolling a Damage-Surge result into a double-Damage result to counter an Evade on the white die).

That said, I don't know that any amount of statistics is going to resolve this particular discussion. All probability tells us is that the likelihood of rolling a dodge on any given white die roll is 1/6 (~17%), that if we roll enough dice approximately 17% of our white dice rolls would be Dodges (and the other ~83% would not be), and that the odds of rolling 4 Dodges in a row is 1/1296 (0.077%). But those are just predictors of how the dice should behave. Once the dice actually hit the table, we're in the world of small sample sizes where (almost) anything is possible. I've seen my friend roll 4 dodges in a row to win us a campaign mission, and we've gone two full campaign missions with no Dodges whatsoever (filled with ISB's, IO's, and Bossk, plus Davith, Diala, Saska, and Lando, so it wasn't like we weren't trying...). Our last skirmish on Hoth, three Rebel hero squads rolled 2 Dodges between them all game (Vader cleaned their.clocks, unsurprisingly). As long as an outcome's odds are greater than 0% (no matter how much greater), that outcome is possible.

The larger question is whether the dodge outcome SHOULD be an available outcome, given (a) how powerful it is, and (b) the fact that it--like any other die outcome--can be rolled an inordinate number of times. Personally I'm fine with it in skirmish. There are some statistical reasons for that (it's a calculated risk given the white's other die faces, and there are builds and strategies that have good odds of playing around it), but mostly I don't have any normative objection to having an admittedly-disproportionately powerful defense result on one of the defense dice. If I don't have that objection, no amount of statistics or anecdotal game logs are likely to make me turn on the Dodge... and I doubt that any amount of statistics or sob stories from me will do the opposite for someone who believes the very possibility of a Dodge creates too much imbalance/variance/randomness in this game.

Just my two cents.

For what it's worth, the stats Subtrendy posted look accurate to me. A non-surge dependent unit like rStormtroopers are the sort of unit that can fare well against the white die's other 5 faces, because they can push their damage ceiling thru (4D) even if the white rolls an Evade (which it usually does). These stats are also likely to improve with Squad Training's selective reroll (i.e., rerolling a Damage-Surge result into a double-Damage result to counter an Evade on the white die).

That said, I don't know that any amount of statistics is going to resolve this particular discussion. All probability tells us is that the likelihood of rolling a dodge on any given white die roll is 1/6 (~17%), that if we roll enough dice approximately 17% of our white dice rolls would be Dodges (and the other ~83% would not be), and that the odds of rolling 4 Dodges in a row is 1/1296 (0.077%). But those are just predictors of how the dice should behave. Once the dice actually hit the table, we're in the world of small sample sizes where (almost) anything is possible. I've seen my friend roll 4 dodges in a row to win us a campaign mission, and we've gone two full campaign missions with no Dodges whatsoever (filled with ISB's, IO's, and Bossk, plus Davith, Diala, Saska, and Lando, so it wasn't like we weren't trying...). Our last skirmish on Hoth, three Rebel hero squads rolled 2 Dodges between them all game (Vader cleaned their.clocks, unsurprisingly). As long as an outcome's odds are greater than 0% (no matter how much greater), that outcome is possible.

The larger question is whether the dodge outcome SHOULD be an available outcome, given (a) how powerful it is, and (b) the fact that it--like any other die outcome--can be rolled an inordinate number of times. Personally I'm fine with it in skirmish. There are some statistical reasons for that (it's a calculated risk given the white's other die faces, and there are builds and strategies that have good odds of playing around it), but mostly I don't have any normative objection to having an admittedly-disproportionately powerful defense result on one of the defense dice. If I don't have that objection, no amount of statistics or anecdotal game logs are likely to make me turn on the Dodge... and I doubt that any amount of statistics or sob stories from me will do the opposite for someone who believes the very possibility of a Dodge creates too much imbalance/variance/randomness in this game.

Just my two cents.

Very well articulated post. Thank you.

Dice statistics from a few of my campaigns:

SWIA010 Core campaign: https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/21513249#21513249

SWIA024 Extended Twin Shadows (7 missions): https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/23113472#23113472

The former had a larger propotion of blanks than dodges, and the latter the other way around. (Doesn't show the number of Cowers though.)

For what it's worth, the stats Subtrendy posted look accurate to me. A non-surge dependent unit like rStormtroopers are the sort of unit that can fare well against the white die's other 5 faces, because they can push their damage ceiling thru (4D) even if the white rolls an Evade (which it usually does). These stats are also likely to improve with Squad Training's selective reroll (i.e., rerolling a Damage-Surge result into a double-Damage result to counter an Evade on the white die).

That said, I don't know that any amount of statistics is going to resolve this particular discussion. All probability tells us is that the likelihood of rolling a dodge on any given white die roll is 1/6 (~17%), that if we roll enough dice approximately 17% of our white dice rolls would be Dodges (and the other ~83% would not be), and that the odds of rolling 4 Dodges in a row is 1/1296 (0.077%). But those are just predictors of how the dice should behave. Once the dice actually hit the table, we're in the world of small sample sizes where (almost) anything is possible. I've seen my friend roll 4 dodges in a row to win us a campaign mission, and we've gone two full campaign missions with no Dodges whatsoever (filled with ISB's, IO's, and Bossk, plus Davith, Diala, Saska, and Lando, so it wasn't like we weren't trying...). Our last skirmish on Hoth, three Rebel hero squads rolled 2 Dodges between them all game (Vader cleaned their.clocks, unsurprisingly). As long as an outcome's odds are greater than 0% (no matter how much greater), that outcome is possible.

The larger question is whether the dodge outcome SHOULD be an available outcome, given (a) how powerful it is, and (b) the fact that it--like any other die outcome--can be rolled an inordinate number of times. Personally I'm fine with it in skirmish. There are some statistical reasons for that (it's a calculated risk given the white's other die faces, and there are builds and strategies that have good odds of playing around it), but mostly I don't have any normative objection to having an admittedly-disproportionately powerful defense result on one of the defense dice. If I don't have that objection, no amount of statistics or anecdotal game logs are likely to make me turn on the Dodge... and I doubt that any amount of statistics or sob stories from me will do the opposite for someone who believes the very possibility of a Dodge creates too much imbalance/variance/randomness in this game.

Just my two cents.

I agree with you, nice post.

I want to tell a story. Player 1 activates Bosk moves him from around the broken turret in the middle of the Hoth skirmish map and then Bosk declares an attack on Inquisitor playing element of surprise and primary target, BAM 10 damage. Player 2 activates Inquisitor moves to Bosk plays wild attack and primary target. Rolls 11 damage and 2 surge. Player 1 rolls double dodge. Player 2 says "that was a 1 in 36, I was not expecting that" then moves the inquisitor the rest of his movement and the game continued.

For some people the fact this happened at all is a problem, for others they find the chance as potential and its awesome.

For me I think, the game has been out over 2 years, its in the game and they went through a few tournament cycles, It is not changing. Deal with it

Dice statistics from a few of my campaigns:

SWIA010 Core campaign: https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/21513249#21513249

SWIA024 Extended Twin Shadows (7 missions): https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/23113472#23113472

The former had a larger propotion of blanks than dodges, and the latter the other way around. (Doesn't show the number of Cowers though.)

I know it would have been a pain, but I would love to see average damage inflicted against white dice characters versus average damage inflicted against black dice characters.

Actually, I don't even really want the dodge itself to change.

I still like the idea of dice decks. This doesn't rule out the dodge, but the possibility to roll 6 dodges in a row.

I've seen the BloodBowl reference above. One thing I like about BloodBowl are the Team Rerolls. If something goes extremely wrong, you can use one of these. In the first editions of BloodBowl, you could use a Team Reroll on ANY dice roll. I would love a mechanism like this in Imperial Assault.

Actually, I don't even really want the dodge itself to change.

I still like the idea of dice decks. This doesn't rule out the dodge, but the possibility to roll 6 dodges in a row.

I've seen the BloodBowl reference above. One thing I like about BloodBowl are the Team Rerolls. If something goes extremely wrong, you can use one of these. In the first editions of BloodBowl, you could use a Team Reroll on ANY dice roll. I would love a mechanism like this in Imperial Assault.

How do dice decks work? Does each figure / deployment card have its own deck?

I get the feeling that dodge isn't actually nearly as bad as some people think, that statistically it averages out, but whats happening is a kind of psychological warfare. The dodge symbol itself is memorable, and when it happens, there's heightened emotions, so it kind of reinforces itself - regardless how many times it has actually influenced games, the few times it does are particularly memorable, so that stand out over everything else.

It a bit like the perception I have that BMW drivers don't use indicators. Every time I see a BMW not use their flicker, it reinforces my belief that they are all bad drivers, regardless how many use their indicators, or how many non-BMW drivers don't use their indicators...