Hey all,

Some of my players have obtained weapons that crit on a 1 (modded lightsabers). They love getting crits because the crits are so often meaningful as a crit with 4 advantage is a +30 on the crit result table.

However it has resulted in a somewhat demoralizing effect when a Triumph is rolled! The players want to crit with their weapons but feel like it effectively has reduced a Triumph to a single advantage.

Mechanically there is not question of what the correct answer is: The triumph is either a crit or adds +10 to a crit roll. However as a GM I feel like this has become a super underwhelming option and was hoping for some suggestions from my fellow GMs. To clarify my players are not complaining about this at all, but I can see the underwhelming effect of a Triumph result with these particular weapons.

I do sometimes suggest a more interesting result such as forcing the target to drop a weapon or lower his guard (upgrading the next attack against him), but they usually want that maxi-crit and are inclined to spend it even if it is only for an additional +10 over what they've earned with their advantage.

Any thoughts would be much appreciated- I've considered letting it count as 2 advantage (so +20 to a crit roll already achieved via advantage).

Thanks!

Finarin

Upprage the next check for an enemy because the chandelier is crashing down right before him and he is a little distracted is a lot more effective for the round of combat than adding another 10 points on a crit which is rolling anyway already 80+W100 …

There are tons of options outside of a boring crit for triumphs and while we have one character with a crit build and disrupters in the group, he would never waste a crit for just another 10 extra on his crit-role. Double triumphs can destroy an enemy weapon, a triumph can destroy essential gear or change the encounter in other meaningful ways. It would be a real waste to spend it on a borning increased effect on a critical injury/hit roll.

Basically your players are doing it wrong and you might encourage them with a few ideas or descriptions to spend their triumphs and more meaningful things. Disarm an opponent with a triumph and ****** his weapon from him with a maneuver is for example something totally legit with a triumph …

Yeah, stick to your guns and RAW. If they don't want to be more creative with the potential they've been given, then let it be ineffective. This is not to say don't stop trying to encourage other uses because that's a good thing, just don't give ground on them not building an interesting story. Also, anytime you roll a triumph do something awesome for the bad guys and hopefully they'll see that it's not worth the extra +10.

Damage the targets weapon (which permanently adds bad dice to the opponents checks, much better than simply affecting their next check)

Disarm, forcing them to waste a manoeuvre to pick it back up (or 3 if the Attacker has Sum Djem)

Introduce a fact into the narrative (my personal favourite) such as a retractable bridge that can prevent persuit or escape.

Then there are the other Qualities such as Burn, Disorient, or hitting with a second weapon. In a lot of cases exceeding an opponents wound threshold is more useful than a Crit.

There are also a few talents that allow Triumph to do something, although Sum Djem is definitely most useful.

There are different weapon effects available on lightsabers, as well as, additional options in the 6-2 table. Nothing else needs to be added imo.

I'm assuming you didn't hold a gun to their heads and order them to mod their 'sabres to Crit 1?

If not, then they've got no room for complaint. One of the effects of a Triumph is to activate a crit, regardless of the Crit rating of the weapon. If they've opted to build weapons that can activate a crit on a single Advantage and can't be bothered using Triumphs for anything more interesting than that, then it's their own bloody fault. Tell them to put on their big Jedi panties and grow and imagination.

I'm in agreement with pretty much everyone here. If you've rolled a success with a bunch of advantage and a triumph, use the triumph for something else. Triumphs are supposed to be kind of a game-changer. When you slice your enemy's arm off, use the triumph to intimidate his buddies. Upgrade the difficulty for people to hit you, so that you can smack them down with Improved Parry/Reflect. Make things happen. Crits are cool, but you can do so much more than pop +10 down on your crit roll.
Though if you have Makashi Finish, and just rolled a success, some threat, a triumph, and a bunch of Force pips, that's a pretty good time to use the triumph for a crit.

Came here to say what's already been said. No need for me to repeat what others have already put into words.

If you want to inspire your players to use the Triumph more creatively (whether for narrative/mechanical/both effect) I'd suggest you show them how it's done when you spend Despair or Triumph.

Have enemies with Crit 1 weapons and when you roll a hit with lots of Advantage and a Triumph then show them how much more fun and useful it is to use the Triumph for something else.

And if they still want to keep using Triumph just for a +10 to the Crit roll...well that's their decisions and you can keep on having fun using your Triumph/Despair in more interesting ways. But I think that at some point they're going to see that the +10 really isn't worth it.

We removed the rule that lets you essentially megacrit, so advantage are usually spent elswhere. There are plenty of talents and mods (especially for lightsabers!) that give ranks in Vicious. Everyone who forgoes THOSE, just have to stack on crits the normal way. So, one advantage means a crit, but the rest of the advantage is to be spent elsewhere. None of my players would ever use a triumph for a crit unless they really had no other choice.

Uh...okay, thanks everyone. I think I poorly explained this...my players have NEVER complained about this, asked for an adjustment, or done anything wrong.

As GM, I noticed this effect during our games and was wondering if there were suggestions along the lines of allowing Triumph to affect the crit in a more significant way than a single advantage does.

I don't have to stick to my guns because no one has asked me to change anything, but the rule of cool suggests to me that an adaption may be appropriate. Obviously the character is built to succeed at massive crits, so it is very rewarding to get a massive crit with their saber, this has simply resulted in a Triumph being an underwhelming die result. I realize that it is not penalizing the player to suggest that they use the Triumph more creatively, but the temptation to have a crit +40 become a crit +50 is pretty high.

I'm currently leaning toward letting a Triumph with multiple advantage provide +10 to the crit as well as a creative narrative result so that the player doesn't have to feel like they're giving up the crit boost to improve the story.

Obviously it's my game and I can handle it however I want too, but I respect the opinions of the people on this board and wanted to see if there were some suggestions that I might not have thought of.

As a lot of people have mentioned: There should be no temptation because 10 extra on the crit role has little to no effect, while influencing the encounter with the other narrative options is massive. If your players have not realized that they are wasting their crits, it would be a lot more helpful to show them those options instead of of granting a free crit on top of each triumph … which your players would hate very soon, because npcs than take that crit all the time on top to the better options and crits heal not easily and are a pain in the butt for player characters.

You might as well show your NPCs the world of a proper crit build with dual-wielding lightsabers (damage 12, crit rating 1, breach 1, vicious 5, sunder, defensive 1, superior and a curved hilt for that extra advantage in a duell situation), a few ranks of parry together with lethal blows and an adequate rank of adversary and a duellist is born who can teach your players a thing or two about not spending triumphs on +10 crit.

Depending on how strong the group is you might add the force is my ally to this Makashi duellist or use the additional combat turns for nemesis to make the most out disarming opponents. Force move is the easiest solution to take their weapons before the players can do.

While it is a bit more devious, and even heavy handed, you could force them to start using triumphs by using the old version of Durable from the beginners game. T he old version of the Durable talent (ignore the X "where X equals ranks in Durable" critical injuries suffered per day), See the beginners game Adversary list.

This means that if you had a dark force-user with 4 ranks of old Durable, he can just struggle off the first 4 critical injuries they inflict. You can be like "don't waste that triumph because he just ate that crit, no rolling on the crit chart will be done." This could force your players to start thinking of other ways to use their triumphs and advantage instead of just getting high on the critical chart and hoping for an instant kill.

Uh...okay, thanks everyone. I think I poorly explained this...my players have NEVER complained about this, asked for an adjustment, or done anything wrong.

As GM, I noticed this effect during our games and was wondering if there were suggestions along the lines of allowing Triumph to affect the crit in a more significant way than a single advantage does.

I don't have to stick to my guns because no one has asked me to change anything, but the rule of cool suggests to me that an adaption may be appropriate. Obviously the character is built to succeed at massive crits, so it is very rewarding to get a massive crit with their saber, this has simply resulted in a Triumph being an underwhelming die result. I realize that it is not penalizing the player to suggest that they use the Triumph more creatively, but the temptation to have a crit +40 become a crit +50 is pretty high.

I'm currently leaning toward letting a Triumph with multiple advantage provide +10 to the crit as well as a creative narrative result so that the player doesn't have to feel like they're giving up the crit boost to improve the story.

Obviously it's my game and I can handle it however I want too, but I respect the opinions of the people on this board and wanted to see if there were some suggestions that I might not have thought of.

Apologies for misunderstanding. In this case, I'd say there's a simple solution. I'd just remind you that you can use Triumphs as well. Think about things you can do with them that will really ruin your players' day. Show them what they're missing.

Tell them to put on their big Jedi panties and grow and imagination.

That would explain why Jedi are all high & mighty and Sith are ruthless. Sith go commando.

Just as a follow up- I landed on my solution to this situation.

I will allow the player who rolls a Triumph to roll their critical hit and then decide if they want to spend any Triumphs they've rolled to add +10 to it. If they don't like the crit this changes it into they may still spend the Triumph in some other fashion. This makes Triumph just a little cooler than a single advantage and encourages them to use Triumph creatively when it won't pay off on the crit chart.

IMO: Triumph can be used to do other things than buy crit. (See Advantages and Triumphs in combat table, from which you can see that in practice Triumph can be demoted to advantage always, but it can be also used to more imaginative things.) So if your PCs want to demote Triumph to advantage and use it to buy crit, that's their decision. They should use their creativity to use it in more Triumphant way. If they want to use triumph as advantage, that's their loss. If NPC ever hits them (or other NPC) with a triumph, show them how cool effects can be gotten from it.