OGP + Palp

Inq + Title, Prockets, Autothrusters, PTL

Vessery + X/7, Stealth Device, VI

Went undefeated at this year's local Summer Exhibition with this list.

I'd personally rather give the Shuttle its title, as opposed to the SD on Vessery. It becomes a pretty fantastic tool for painting targets for Vess.

OGP + Palp

Inq + Title, Prockets, Autothrusters, PTL

Vessery + X/7, Stealth Device, VI

Went undefeated at this year's local Summer Exhibition with this list.

Looks a good list. A Sniper, a Brawler and a Support ship. I would be tempted to drop Vess's Stealth Device in order to get a FCS or ST-321 on the shuttle for the extra TL flexibility but apart from that, it looks very solid.

Thanks guys. The VI on Vessery lets him take advantage of Inq's TL so I don't have to invest too much into the shuttle. The SD on Vessery looks weird, but it makes him almost as slippery as Soontir Fel (just lacks Autothrusters.) A Vessery charging at you with 4 green dice and an Evade token (and Palp support) is something nightmares are made of.

Oh, it's good, but having your shuttle being able to place a TL on ANY target for Vessery at any time also seems quite strong. You could also lose the Prockets on Inqy. I don't HATE Prockets, but the added support from the Shuttle title seems a lot less situational.

Most of the time I'd think the title is a waste of points, but for Vessery? Solid.

PTL on Ryad, yes. Anyone other Defender, absolutely not.

Sorry, but PTL is equally if not MORE valuable on Rexler and Vessery.

Juke is actually ideal for Ryad in many ways, but again, as i said above, its the defender playstyle that makes Juke inconsistent. If you are using the defenders in concert to attack a single target - juke is king. If you are using cross-hatch slashing attacks, its less clear.

Juke works best when 2 of your ships will attack the same target, and the juke user is attacking first.

... Sorry, but you're wrong... And have no actual data to back you up. Feel free to compare PtL Defenders on List Juggler... I'd be surprised if you see less than 90% being Ryad.

The reason why you don't take PtL on any other Defender is because, even with Twin Ion Engines, their greens aren't enough to keep them in the fight. x7 means they really want to go fast, so they'll end up taking entire rounds off to clear stress and re-position. Ryad being able to perform a variety of green K-turns is why PtL is fantastic on her.

Not really sure why you imagine Vessery would even need PtL, as he shouldn't ever need to take a TL, so his action, Focus or Barrel Roll, becomes perfectly fine, letting you use any more viable EPT (Crackshot being one of the more popular).

And, if you're going Rexlar, you take Predator or VI or some such... Not PtL.

I can't argue with the data - not gonna try. Meaning, i concede that PTL is not being used on Rexler and Vessery.

That doesn't make it a bad strategy to pick PTL over Juke. Rexler with PTL is a seriously good fit - give it another try if you haven't done so recently. And try Rexler with Engine and PTL together.

The whole point of this thread was to try outside the box ideas to combat the obvious mirror match.

I'm 100% going to look beyond just the data and propose different thoughts, especially ones i have personally tried and found successful.

PTL on Ryad, yes. Anyone other Defender, absolutely not.

Sorry, but PTL is equally if not MORE valuable on Rexler and Vessery.

Juke is actually ideal for Ryad in many ways, but again, as i said above, its the defender playstyle that makes Juke inconsistent. If you are using the defenders in concert to attack a single target - juke is king. If you are using cross-hatch slashing attacks, its less clear.

Juke works best when 2 of your ships will attack the same target, and the juke user is attacking first.

... Sorry, but you're wrong... And have no actual data to back you up. Feel free to compare PtL Defenders on List Juggler... I'd be surprised if you see less than 90% being Ryad.

The reason why you don't take PtL on any other Defender is because, even with Twin Ion Engines, their greens aren't enough to keep them in the fight. x7 means they really want to go fast, so they'll end up taking entire rounds off to clear stress and re-position. Ryad being able to perform a variety of green K-turns is why PtL is fantastic on her.

Not really sure why you imagine Vessery would even need PtL, as he shouldn't ever need to take a TL, so his action, Focus or Barrel Roll, becomes perfectly fine, letting you use any more viable EPT (Crackshot being one of the more popular).

And, if you're going Rexlar, you take Predator or VI or some such... Not PtL.

I can't argue with the data - not gonna try. Meaning, i concede that PTL is not being used on Rexler and Vessery.

That doesn't make it a bad strategy to pick PTL over Juke. Rexler with PTL is a seriously good fit - give it another try if you haven't done so recently. And try Rexler with Engine and PTL together.

The whole point of this thread was to try outside the box ideas to combat the obvious mirror match.

I'm 100% going to look beyond just the data and propose different thoughts, especially ones i have personally tried and found successful.

Using your personal experience is actually just using data from a smaller, and, honestly, even less useful resource (due to the amount of data not actually being actionable).

"Out of the box" should still consider available data, especially since the context of the thread is in a competitive setting.

PtL & Engine on Rexler is fun, but it is not good. It's a lot of points on an already expensive ship, it doesn't turn the ship into an effective arc dodger, and you still have terrible stress removal options.

x7 Defenders are arguably the better Defenders. PtL on an x7 is extremely inefficient, and will not help in the mirror match -- non-PtL Defenders will be able to pull K-Turns and still get their action, while PtL Defenders will not. Even more so, PtL Defenders suffer from being blocked -- Juke Defenders, or other variations (Crackshot, Predator etc), do not (bumping doesn't effect those upgrades).

So, in all ways that matter, PtL is a bad strategy over Juke, except on the edge case of Ryad.

The argument for Ryad, other than her green K-turns, is that she needs to be both keeping her TLs for Vessery to use, and using them herself to pump her offense. PtL lets her, for the most part, always have TL be one of her actions. So PtL Ryad is a perfect compliment to Vessery (even if she's not my preferred one).

Looking beyond the data is fine -- it's the only way lists like Dengaroo get discovered. Doesn't mean the rest of the data should be ignored, or that logical thought should be skipped. The logic I'm using is that a stressed Defender is extremely ineffective compared to a non-stressed Defender.

PtL has a variety of ships where it is THE go to Elite Pilot Talent. Defenders, by and large, are not that vessel. You'd have a MUCH better result spending those points on Predator, as it doesn't cripple a Defender with stress.

Hmm - ok glad i pushed then. I see your point about the limits on PTL...

i'll keep mixing it up, and for sure give Juke more tries. So far, i can't help but think you are over-valuing Juke and under-valuing PTL. But i also have to admit i got lots more testing to do.

The argument for Ryad, other than her green K-turns, is that she needs to be both keeping her TLs for Vessery to use, and using them herself to pump her offense. PtL lets her, for the most part, always have TL be one of her actions. So PtL Ryad is a perfect compliment to Vessery (even if she's not my preferred one).

i jsut want to point out, if your using vessery, that the shuttle also has target lock so the point about needing ryad to always target lock every turn isnt actually true.

Hmm - ok glad i pushed then. I see your point about the limits on PTL...

i'll keep mixing it up, and for sure give Juke more tries. So far, i can't help but think you are over-valuing Juke and under-valuing PTL. But i also have to admit i got lots more testing to do.

Predator, Lone Wolf, Crackshot, Veteran Instincts, Outmaneuver, Adaptability, and Ruthlessness for /D Defenders are all also valid choices for Defenders. I agree with you that Juke is unreliable without OmegaL's ability - though it is good at token removal! - but he's spot-on about PTL being quite possibly the worst choice for Defenders not elevated to the rank of Countess.

PTL is... well... a crutch.

A lot of players reach for it immediately, and while it's a valid choice for best EPT in the game its best users are the ones that are action inefficient and rich in geen maneuvers with at least one range band filled with greens. x7 Defenders are the exact opposite: action efficient and poor in greens. After they get their Evade and either Focus/TL or BR out of an arc, they're solid - BR'ing with Vessery's free target lock is also golden.

They also don't need to worry about arc dodging like Soontir needs to, because they're already HUGELY efficient jousters. In a head-to-head match, x7's win.

I mentioned in another thread that a lot of players succumb to the idea that they can dodge everything and not lose anything when instead they should realize that they're going to lose something and build their list so that they know WHAT their opponent has to target first. It's the sort of risk-aversion that leads players to fly their palpshuttle in straight lines on their side of the board instead of diving it in, daring the enemy to shoot at IT instead of the aces picking them apart, and trying to divide their enemy's target priorities.

Your PTL+Engine Upgrade is spawned of that urge. You can't turn a Defender into a Soontir, they don't have the greens or the Pilot Skill to match his arc-dodging.

The argument for Ryad, other than her green K-turns, is that she needs to be both keeping her TLs for Vessery to use, and using them herself to pump her offense. PtL lets her, for the most part, always have TL be one of her actions. So PtL Ryad is a perfect compliment to Vessery (even if she's not my preferred one).

i jsut want to point out, if your using vessery, that the shuttle also has target lock so the point about needing ryad to always target lock every turn isnt actually true.

Actually, in most cases, a non-title shuttle is NOT getting Target Locks for Vessery. If it is, it is too close to the fight and you're going to lose Palp quickly, which WILL lose you the mirror match.

Now, there are ways to give the shuttle some more survivability, and some strategies for using the shuttle offensively, but those include adding additional upgrades, such as Sensor Jammer, or possibly Electronic Baffle. Otherwise, the shuttle is usually best NOT joining the fight, so it won't be reliably getting TLs for Vessery. This is why I suggested the title, which is more effective than I suspect most would realize.

As for my love of Juke, I was simply pointing out that it was superior, in this instance, to PtL (and I listed others that were as well).

I still absolutely prefer Juke on my Vessery, but that's my preference. After a lot of testing and practice. And with very, very positive results... In a highly competitive and meta-aware setting...

But sure, what do I know, I must just be Juke crazy.

so let me get this straight then

1: you use ion projector to ionize ships that bump into you

2: you are not in range to use target lock because the shuttle isnt near the enemy

these 2 statements are mutually exclusive. because the shuttle cant be both getting bumped and not in target lock range.
so now im confused, is it simply a matter of some people like to put the shuttle in combat and thus some people like to be wrong?

so let me get this straight then

1: you use ion projector to ionize ships that bump into you

2: you are not in range to use target lock because the shuttle isnt near the enemy

these 2 statements are mutually exclusive. because the shuttle cant be both getting bumped and not in target lock range.

so now im confused, is it simply a matter of some people like to put the shuttle in combat and thus some people like to be wrong?

I don't see anyone mentioning Ion Projectors in this thread. Twin Ion Engines MK II are referenced, for stress relief (on a TIE).

And there absolutely are some methods that work with the shuttle in combat -- and it is also preferable depending on some match ups.

But you wouldn't put the title on one with Ion with the title, no. No one would suggest that.