I've played FFG Star Wars once (EotE shortly after it came out) and run it twice (F&D Beta and the full game), each time using extended versions of published adventures throughout a four or five hour period -- so a total of about 12-15 hours of playing the system in total. Our gaming group consists of two of my siblings (13 and 16 year old girls), my dad, and a collection of family friends and acquaintances. We've mostly played D20 (primarily D&D) and Savage Worlds, with a sprinkling of other games and systems added inbetween. We don't get together very often -- we'd be lucky to have a monthly meeting, which compounds a lot of the issues I/we seem to be having with the system.

I think the basis of all our problems is that the core mechanic feels incredibly clunky and, despite being labelled as 'narrative', the entire rest of the system is incredibly crunchy. With an attribute of 4 and a difficulty of 2-3, you're rolling six or seven dice and counting up the results. And while this might be a minor nuisance if you were just looking at d10's or d6's and counting successes, having to analyze the roll slows things down to halt -- especially when advantage and threat get involved, or when triumph and despair show up simultaneously. I think I could deal with this by making triumph and despair cancel each other out, by negating the bonus/malus to getting more than one success/failure, and relegating advantage/threat to helping to just inform the degree of success and failure for most rolls, similar to the 'dragon die' in Dragon Age / Fantasy Age from Green Ronin.

But the way that FFG handles qualitative dice rolling seems to be more restrictive than helpful; it feels like we have to pour over the results of the dice to find a suitable explanation for what they mean, and while this is an inviting idea in theory, it seems like it slows things down in practice and makes the storytelling beholden to the dice. It also feels like interpretting knowledge-based results is especially difficult to navigate. I've started avoided making my players roll unless it's absolutely necessary to resolve something -- and honestly, perhaps that's not necessarily a bad thing, but eventually those rolls are going to come, and I tend to dread it. And I get the theory behind the dice; hitting a target number on a d20 only determines if you succeed and doesn't necessarily add to creative storytelling on its own. But with a good DM and engaged players, I don't feel like that a lack of creative storytelling has ever been an issue at my table.

Combat, though, is where things really fall apart for us, and I feel like my biggest flaw with the system really comes out -- it's extremely crunchy and there's a huge onus on my players to embrace that crunch when it comes to approaching the abstracted combat tactically and dealing with their characters' wealth of advancement options. Combat seems very meticulously balanced around utilizing maneuvers and advantage/threat. When the turn comes around to my players, they seem overwhelmed despite my using handouts to help with the transition, and when I make suggestions to them, they seem to just go with the flow in the name of moving the game forward and avoiding staring at their options for another minute or two. I have two younger players, as well -- a thirteen and sixteen year old -- and while the latter gets into the fantasy of having force powers and a lightsaber, dealing with all the mechanical jargon is a bit much for the former. My older players seem overwhelmed by their prospects in combat as well, especially when it comes to interpreting the dice.

Character management can be disastrously messy considering I'm the only one who has purchased or read the Core books -- and I have three copies of Force and Destiny. We've created characters twice and both situations were messy despite having two handouts for each talent tree and Force power... and a packet detailing all the races, description of the classes, and experience spending rules. Advancement is also rough without a book for each person. If I had to do everything over again, I would definitely prepare pregens and would likely have a list of suggested advancements for the first several sessions, similar to the way the Beginner's Box handles them. All of this is, of course, even more difficult for a Force and Destiny campaign that includes extensive Force powers.

As a last note, is it just me, or do the starship battles feel, again, fairly clunky?

I guess now that I've stated all my issues, this sounds more like a scathing review than a plea for help, but I like some of the things FFG does to represent the world of Star Wars, but it seems like a lot of work to adapt -- and I'm not sure how to best ease my players into adapting to the system. And is it even worth it, as opposed do picking up WEG's d6 system or adapting Savage Worlds or Fate CORE or some other flexible system to suit our needs? I can see some of my complaints being a part of the growing pains of playing a new game and the length of time between sessions, but I'm not certain if that's a worthwhile excuse after 12-15 hours of play. Have others had similar issues with their gaming groups and their system, and if so, how did you pivot? Does anyone have any advice? Or is it just time to move on and find something different to play?

Everything is awesome. everything is spread out over 5,000 or so pages.

Everything you really need are those 3 handouts to make it a lot smoother and less clunky for beginners:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/134044-feedback-sought-player-action-sheets/

I am pretty convinced that the system itself is not clunky, I am convinced that FFG editing MAKES it clunky. I have my own custom action sheet for space combat for example, it took me a few hours to make, with lots of backtracking from the rules different core books (because there is no errata page online, while the 2nd edition of eote has updated text), but after I did it, space combat became super fluid, narrative and awesome to me. The issue is that it rules are clunky written, with lots of backtracking, unclear formulation and all the other problems which are common for all FFG products. The rules themself are smooth as long as you have those action sheets as guideline for spending advantages / threat.

We had a few growing pains, but nothing as bad as you're implying. My group is older (and somewhat more fossilized), but they figured out the dice in about half an hour, and they have a hoot spending advantages and triumph in creative ways. One thing you might consider is that each dice roll generally represents a longer period of time than in other games like D20 (where a round is only a few seconds). So there's more room for narration that encompasses a larger range of results. Each check for Ranged (Light) isn't one pull of the trigger, it's a bunch of shots...which is why you can take out multiple minions in a single roll.

I'd agree that combat *can* be crunchy, but it doesn't have to be...basically the option is there if you want to use it, or you can spend your narrative results on more narrative outcomes. The crunch that is presented is just to give you an idea of scale, so, for example, a player can't argue that 1 Advantage means they got the nuclear codes.

It sounds like maybe your group doesn't want to even have all the options. So maybe it's time to back up and simplify. Don't allow every option, just one or two. The most common use of Advantages, beyond recovering Strain, is passing boost dice to allies; the next might be triggering a critical hit. So leave it to those three for a bit to just speed things up. Take away any weapons that have qualities for a bit until they know how and when to use them. Then let the players decide how and when they want to get more complicated. You could play several sessions where players parcel out 1A and 2A for boost dice, then suddenly somebody will get 5A and have just the right idea for using it...it will make it that much more memorable. Likewise, the most common use of Threat is applying Strain, or depending on the equipment, running out of ammo.

I'm not saying avoid other uses, just don't waste time labouring over how to spend these things. If nobody has an immediate idea, pick a default and move on.

As far as other skills, one rule is to not ask for a roll unless you have a good idea how the narrative results can be used. If somebody is hacking a computer, and you only know what they'll get on a success, that's not enough. You need to know what extra information they can "buy" for their Advantages/Triump (more precise details, or maybe they can invent something equivalent); and what complications you might throw at them with Threats/Despair (failed equipment, sudden appearance of authorities, triggering of silent alarms they don't know about, etc).

As for space combat: yeah, I'm not a fan when it comes to dogfights. So don't dogfight. Star Wars is about escapes, and escapes are basically chases, so use the chase rules to their fullest. Always have terrain that the pilots must navigate through to get from A to B, give them X turns to get there, and keep the whole thing short (5-6 rounds max). Also make sure there is something for everyone to do: techies can jam transmissions or mess with enemy targeting; faces can charm or coerce the enemy, or rally their own allies; etc.

Hope that helps. All I can say is if my "team 50+" can enjoy this game, while not even being Star Wars fans, anybody can.

If no one is gonna read anything about the system besides you, things aren't going to get better with any great speed. As you've discovered, it's a significant departure from your d20s, and really any "single-axis", pass/fail system (Savage Worlds, most others). And if you treat it like a number-cruncher system, instead of the narrative beast it is, you're gonna have fits. I'm just thankful my table not only loves reading, but loves learning new dice mechanics. And one as innovative and with the potential of FFGs SW series, they just devoured. All experienced gamers. And even still I'd say we had maybe a 3 session learning curve before ppl were quickly building, rolling and interpreting checks. Spaceship battles we still forget what options some ppl/PC-types have, 100s of hours in.

The game is pretty crunchy (especially as more and more books continue to pile on redundant equipment and species and... *le sigh*) but it is also very narrative-facing. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Anyway, sounds to me like it just may not be for your table, lemme know if/when you sell those books (and dice!). Be happy to rid you of them

I also thought narrating advantage and threat slowed things down so other than spending advantage to gain a maneuver or recover strain they just get converted into boost dice for the next player with the implicit narrative description of working as a team and pressing their advantage. I usually convert threat to not narratively justified black dice (so they can use their talents to remove them) a few times i've had a player's auto fire blaster pistol run out ammo so he can use his spare clip talent.

Bur Triumph and Despair are always narrated (sometimes we will delay the narrative justification of triumph despair if the player doesn't know what he wants to do with the triumph or I don't have enough despair to justify the nasty thing I want to do to the player... having a player be disarmed (figuratively) and their tricked out weapon fall to a place where they can't get it until the end of the encounter is a 2 despair act in my book)

It took 2-3 sessions for me to get my head around the dice symbols, the narrative aspect and changing the 'shoot & loot' mentality of d20/PFRPG.

Having my own copy of the rules helped as I could dip into the book every now and again between sessions. Giving the players a copy of the 'Spending Advantage & Triumphs' and the 'Spending Threats & Despair' (pages 206-7) may help speed up sessions. It's a narrative system - the players help tell the story as well, they're not just plodding through a dungeon kicking open doors.

EDIT: and go back and watch the films.... you can see Han's Obligation (debt) and Vader's Obsession (converting Luke).. you'll start saying things like 'He got a Despair there'.. when Luke loses a hand, or they all rolled failures there (any shoot out with stormtroopers ). My wife doesn't watch SW films with me now, I drive her nuts!!

Yeah, sounds to me like the OP's core problem is that the players don't have any enthusiasm or interest in learning a system that is very different than the norm.

Ultimately, it may just be that this isn't the system for your group, which admittedly sucks as I think this is definitely one of the better RPGs currently on the market. But it's also not for everyone, and I've run demos for folks that had fun with the session overall, but had zero interest in playing the game beyond that single one-shot.

The core mechanic is clunky? I mean, sure, it's different, but at it's base it's just assembling a pool and canceling symbols. You can get creative with the results, or you can stick to what the book has suggested. Of course, if you're learning ANY new system, if you only play it once a month it's gonna be several months before you get it down as well as the old, familiar system. You're probably going to run into the exact same issue with the d6 system, especially if your players can't be bothered to read any of the books.

You might consider switching to a dice app; I understand (though I have no experience with one) that some can be configured only to display net results - eliminating all the dice that were cancelled. I could see how that might speed up interpretation for you & your players.

I don't want to delve too deeply into psychology here, but the GM is the de facto leader of any RPG as you decide what happens and when. Your players will cue off of your behavior. If you are an apologist for the system, always griping at the rules and layout and mechanics, then your players will start to display the same attitudes even if it manifests as discomfort with rolling the dice. On the other hand, if you want your players to "buy in," then displaying confidence and familiarity with the system will go a long way toward inspiring your players.

I didn't have any of the same issues (well, other than starship combat) when my friends started playing, even though we're all in, or approaching, our 40s. As others have said, maybe this isn't the system for you & your family/friends.

Here has been my experience: Yes, there is a learning curve. The symbols are new and weird, as are the dice. New players have trouble remembering that the good dice are always good, and the bad dice are always bad. They have trouble remembering what each symbol means, and that their target difficulty isn't a static number, but more dice. To make the system really work, they absolutely must play with the dice. Just play with them for a little while, rolling them, remembering what means what, and learning to cancel the symbols.

Because once they understand the dice, and I mean really understand them, this becomes the fastest-playing system I've ever used. And I include Savage Worlds (which I love) in that assessment. I would suggest putting your dice in a bowl, putting out a little chart with the symbol meanings and some ways to spend advantage and threat. Put that in a common place, and say, "I know the game has some growing pains, mostly around the dice. It would help a lot if, every now and then, just make a couple rolls. Imagine you're shooting some stormtroopers or flying through an asteroid field. Roll the dice and think, 'What could happen?'" Don't pester them about doing it, but let them know that you can help if they want.

*drags out soapbox*

One does not get to complain about the number of dice rolled until one plays Shadowrun.

Or any White Wolf game..and in some cases Deathwatch.

*drags out soapbox*

One does not get to complain about the number of dice rolled until one plays Shadowrun.

Or any White Wolf game..and in some cases Deathwatch.

HERO System/Champions, which can rival (and in some instances exceed) the dice pools you're rolling for Shadowrun.

While in college, had one housemate complain about the loud thunder that was the result of us rolling handfuls of full-size d6s. We tried switching out to smaller-size d6s, but those wound up bouncing enough to fall off the table, and an attempt to use micro-d6s ended in futility.

*drags out soapbox*

One does not get to complain about the number of dice rolled until one plays Shadowrun.

Or any White Wolf game..and in some cases Deathwatch.

Ah, Shadowrun. Back in 3rd edition, I remember a player rolling 36d6. I don't even remember what for, or how he had cheesed it to get that many.

*drags out soapbox*

One does not get to complain about the number of dice rolled until one plays Shadowrun.

Or any White Wolf game..and in some cases Deathwatch.

HERO System/Champions, which can rival (and in some instances exceed) the dice pools you're rolling for Shadowrun.

While in college, had one housemate complain about the loud thunder that was the result of us rolling handfuls of full-size d6s. We tried switching out to smaller-size d6s, but those wound up bouncing enough to fall off the table, and an attempt to use micro-d6s ended in futility.

the good old 10d6 RA + 2d6 RKA

or the 20d6 RA, (2 uses per day Disadvantage, 8 or less activation cost)

Heh, we played every game of Shadowrun using the DC Heroes system of 2d10, many years before d20 systems. I don't think our game would have lasted as long as it did if we played by RAW.

Anyway, the FFG SW system isn't for everyone. We came to love the funny dice, but we mostly prefer things narrative systems.

However, bear in mind you don't have to agonise trying to spend every last Advantage. At the table, when it's necessary to keep the action moving, declaring 'Success with Threat' or 'Fail with Advantage' is sufficient if there's nothing immediate that requires certain amounts to trigger a Talent or weapon ability.

Heh, we played every game of Shadowrun using the DC Heroes system of 2d10, many years before d20 systems. I don't think our game would have lasted as long as it did if we played by RAW.

Anyway, the FFG SW system isn't for everyone. We came to love the funny dice, but we mostly prefer things narrative systems.

However, bear in mind you don't have to agonise trying to spend every last Advantage. At the table, when it's necessary to keep the action moving, declaring 'Success with Threat' or 'Fail with Advantage' is sufficient if there's nothing immediate that requires certain amounts to trigger a Talent or weapon ability.

Ah, DC Heroes. Many fond memories of that game. Somewhere, I've still got all 3 editions of it.

Telling the story as the dice unfold (the narration bit) is the beauty of this system and the dice. I love it. But keep in mind, for new players and GMs, the narration doesn't have to be anything extensive to be story telling. A dice roll doesn't create a chapter or even a paragraph in the story, it can just create a sentence.

GM George: "Nice roll, Harry. You missed, but how are you using your two Advantages?"

Harry: "Umm... (looking at chart...) I'm giving the stormtrooper an extra Setback die on his next roll."

George: "Why?"

Harry: "Because... My shot is making him think twice about coming out of cover to shoot back."

George: "Done! Moving along."

The narration doesn't need to be some super descriptive thing. Unless you want it to be.

Harry: "Because... My shot glanced off his white, stormtroopery armor and hit the magnetically sealed door behind their position. Bouncing off that, the shot hit the oil lamp above the trooper's head causing it to fall onto his helmet. The glowing embers lit up his helmet's HUD system which made him (I dunno... it could be a her) see spots for a few moments. He's not sure what just happened, but he's going to think twice about poking his head out from behind cover! That'll make his next action suffer a bit."

George: "Okay... Works for me. And now we know this old warehouse is lit by oil lamps and that the door I mentioned on the far wall is magnetically sealed."

Pete: "Awwww! You know you just made that door harder to get through, right?!"

Harry: "It's not my fault!"

As for space combat: yeah, I'm not a fan when it comes to dogfights. So don't dogfight. Star Wars is about escapes, and escapes are basically chases, so use the chase rules to their fullest. Always have terrain that the pilots must navigate through to get from A to B, give them X turns to get there, and keep the whole thing short (5-6 rounds max). Also make sure there is something for everyone to do: techies can jam transmissions or mess with enemy targeting; faces can charm or coerce the enemy, or rally their own allies; etc.

This isn't the first time I've seen "Yeah, so what if space combat is crap--just use chases!" and I still really dislike it. For me starfighter combat (dogfights) are every bit as important to Star Wars as lightsaber battles. If the system were as bad at lightsaber battles as it is in dogfights, I imagine there would be a big objection if somebody just said to use the chase rules for lightsaber duels. Of course, many of the lightsaber duels we see could be considered chases, especially the duel on Mustafar...

The system is actually worse at lightsaber battles than it is at dogfights. ;-)

Well kind of, I supposed it fits the lore very well that Soresu jedi masters are basically unbeatable, while Makshi win duels against anything else. But the mechanics are lot more interesting for the dogfights. There is a lot more to dogfighting than just applying parry onto every last attack and constantly trying to disarm each other.

And BTW "just use chases for space combat" stops working very fast once the guy running await ain't the guy who gets away. Handling, speed in silhouette can easily allow mediocre TIE-Pilots to catch up to good pilots in big ships. Once you are at close and those TIEs used GtA against you, the chase and your lives are over.

This isn't the first time I've seen "Yeah, so what if space combat is crap--just use chases!" and I still really dislike it. For me starfighter combat (dogfights) are every bit as important to Star Wars as lightsaber battles. If the system were as bad at lightsaber battles as it is in dogfights, I imagine there would be a big objection if somebody just said to use the chase rules for lightsaber duels. Of course, many of the lightsaber duels we see could be considered chases, especially the duel on Mustafar...

Starfighters are glass cannons. They take one or two hits and then they are out. Unless you’re using the Squad rules, putting PCs in starfighters means that they’re not likely to survive for long, unless they are really good pilots with all the most critical talents needed for making sure you don’t get hit at all and surviving dogfights in starfighters.

With lightsabers, Force users at least have the potential to do Parry and Reflect, and if they roll well enough then they can keep recovering all the Strain they’re spending to do Parry and Reflect. But without those talents, they’re likely to go down pretty quickly, one way or the other.

And BTW "just use chases for space combat" stops working very fast once the guy running await ain't the guy who gets away. Handling, speed in silhouette can easily allow mediocre TIE-Pilots to catch up to good pilots in big ships. Once you are at close and those TIEs used GtA against you, the chase and your lives are over.

If the enemy can mass enough glass cannons on you, then yes — waves of TIE fighters will bring down just about any ship they’re likely to be chasing.

But TIEs are particularly vulnerable glass cannons, and will almost always be wiped out with a single shot. So, get and keep good gunners, and have good guns for them to use, and you’re much more survivable against TIE fighters. At least, you might survive long enough to make the jump to lightspeed.

Issue with TIE-Fighters against freighters is that they can pick the attack vector against silhouette 5 and up and just need an easy GtA check to dodge most a sil 4 freighter's weapons. As they proven to be a match in pilot skill in the chase before they should have a real easy time with GtA. Now you better hope for minion pilots, because ace pilots with master pilot or double init slots will dish out hard while maintaining GtA, while rivals are still dangerous thanks to their evasive maneuvers options and increased chance of despair on gunnery rolls.

But yeah, you can definitely can buy time with good gunnery rolls und scratch at least something of your six IF you do not have a blindspot on your freighter. Still, the default configurations usually has blind spots, which really can ruin your day even more.

I love this system. I love how the dice are players in the game. Interpreting the rolls into narrative is my favorite part

And BTW "just use chases for space combat" stops working very fast once the guy running await ain't the guy who gets away. Handling, speed in silhouette can easily allow mediocre TIE-Pilots to catch up to good pilots in big ships. Once you are at close and those TIEs used GtA against you, the chase and your lives are over.

If the enemy can mass enough glass cannons on you, then yes — waves of TIE fighters will bring down just about any ship they’re likely to be chasing.

But TIEs are particularly vulnerable glass cannons, and will almost always be wiped out with a single shot. So, get and keep good gunners, and have good guns for them to use, and you’re much more survivable against TIE fighters. At least, you might survive long enough to make the jump to lightspeed.

Issue with TIE-Fighters against freighters is that they can pick the attack vector against silhouette 5 and up and just need an easy GtA check to dodge most a sil 4 freighter's weapons. As they proven to be a match in pilot skill in the chase before they should have a real easy time with GtA. Now you better hope for minion pilots, because ace pilots with master pilot or double init slots will dish out hard while maintaining GtA, while rivals are still dangerous thanks to their evasive maneuvers options and increased chance of despair on gunnery rolls.

But yeah, you can definitely can buy time with good gunnery rolls und scratch at least something of your six IF you do not have a blindspot on your freighter. Still, the default configurations usually has blind spots, which really can ruin your day even more.

This is where taking the Racer spec from the Sentinel career comes in handy. Take the entire Full Throttle talent set (Full Throttle, Improved Full Throttle, Supreme Full Throttle), and you could potentially outrun a tie fighter in a Silhouette 5 freighter, such as the YZ-775, YZ-900, or VCX-100.

And BTW "just use chases for space combat" stops working very fast once the guy running await ain't the guy who gets away. Handling, speed in silhouette can easily allow mediocre TIE-Pilots to catch up to good pilots in big ships. Once you are at close and those TIEs used GtA against you, the chase and your lives are over.

If the enemy can mass enough glass cannons on you, then yes — waves of TIE fighters will bring down just about any ship they’re likely to be chasing.

But TIEs are particularly vulnerable glass cannons, and will almost always be wiped out with a single shot. So, get and keep good gunners, and have good guns for them to use, and you’re much more survivable against TIE fighters. At least, you might survive long enough to make the jump to lightspeed.

Issue with TIE-Fighters against freighters is that they can pick the attack vector against silhouette 5 and up and just need an easy GtA check to dodge most a sil 4 freighter's weapons. As they proven to be a match in pilot skill in the chase before they should have a real easy time with GtA. Now you better hope for minion pilots, because ace pilots with master pilot or double init slots will dish out hard while maintaining GtA, while rivals are still dangerous thanks to their evasive maneuvers options and increased chance of despair on gunnery rolls.

But yeah, you can definitely can buy time with good gunnery rolls und scratch at least something of your six IF you do not have a blindspot on your freighter. Still, the default configurations usually has blind spots, which really can ruin your day even more.

This is where taking the Racer spec from the Sentinel career comes in handy. Take the entire Full Throttle talent set (Full Throttle, Improved Full Throttle, Supreme Full Throttle), and you could potentially outrun a tie fighter in a Silhouette 5 freighter, such as the YZ-775, YZ-900, or VCX-100.

VCX speed becomes 5 sure, but the handing stays -2, while the TIE-Fighter has a handling of +3. That's on average 1 and 2/3 success extra for the TIE-Pilots. And it just makes them catch up slower by one range band per round instead of two if they are good enough to win the competitive checks against you, so better hope that they don't have an ace squadron leader or operate as larger minion groups to drive up their skill above yours. Sure Full Throttle, it helps, but talents like shortcut and skilled jockey help more consistantly and can compensate for the bad handling and/or enemies who are indeed better pilots. .

BTW, the three Full Throttle talents are as well part of Ace: Driver and Ace:Pilot. They are awesome for GtA. In a chase, not so much …