TLT and Cluster Missiles - Will they allow the token to be held to be spent on the second attack when attacking a ship carrying HSCP?

HSCP just specifies "while attacking" and "while defending". It never says anything like "this attack". As far as I can tell when using "perform this attack twice" weapons those windows run from the Declare Target step until they Remove Destroyed ships step without interruption.

This won't be an issue with the ship carrying HSCP as only primary weapons trigger HSCP, but it will come into play when the ship with HSCP is being attacked.

I'd say they would. HSCP just says when attacking and until the 'when attacking' process ends you're still under the effect.

Myself I don't believe that HSCP forces you to spend the focus at the very first opportunity to do so. So you can spend it at any opportunity to do.

Assuming that I'm correct; if a ship with TLT destroys a target that has HSCP on the first shot, that ship is not removed until after the second shot. The second shot is a mandatory effect. A ship with TLT can't get out of spending a focus by destroying the target, it just isn't forced to spend the token on the first shot.

When Attacking/Defending effects are considered separately for each of the two TLT attacks, so my best guess would be that you'd be forced to spend it during the first attack.

It's only After Attacking/Defending and Declare Target that consider the TLT attack to be a single trigger.

I can't think, off the top of my head, of an extant "when attacking" or "when defending" card that doesn't actually have a much more specific timing window, one that does happen twice. For most of them it's the appropriate modify dice step ("defender modifies attack dice", "attacker modifies attack dice", etc), but some of them have been FAQ-clarified to happen in Compare Results or similar.

Since the forced Focus expenditure from Hot Shot Copilot is presumably a dice modification, I don't see why it wouldn't have two windows during a PTAT attack, too.

But it's worth asking about, along with the other uncertain aspects of this card.

When Attacking/Defending effects are considered separately for each of the two TLT attacks, so my best guess would be that you'd be forced to spend it during the first attack.

It's only After Attacking/Defending and Declare Target that consider the TLT attack to be a single trigger.

I suppose this would affect quite a few abilities if I were right. Things like Lone Wolf and Predator would only be able to modify one of the shots.

Looking at the timing chart, it sure does seem like there is one continuous "when attacking/defending" window though.

It's particularly relevant if you consider that the defender might have a Recon Specialist.

I think there are a bunch of rules questions to submit about this card.

Well, let's compare the wording with Predator:

"When attacking, you may reroll 1 attack die..."

When using it with a TLT, you may use predator on the first attack, the second attack or both attacks. If predator was rewarded from "you may" to "you must". I think you would be forced to use it on both attacks, no matter how good / bad your dice were.

Now if I look at the second clause of Hotshot Co-pilot

"When defending, the attacker must spend 1 focus token if able."

To me, that reads that the attacker must spend 1 focus token during each attack if able (so if he had 2 focuses, he would have to spend one for each attack).

Otherwise, that would mean that we'd have to rework the timing on predator, right?

EDIT: multiple posts were made while I was typing, so I'm late to the party. Sorry!

Yup, that's my reading of it.

Otherwise, that would mean that we'd have to rework the timing on predator, right?

I think that's the bigger deal than how HSCP interacts with TLT. If that's the case then the timing chart was a much bigger nerf to TLT than it originally appeared to be. It's not just after attacking/defending abilities that would have gotten worse for a TLT.

I think your wrong on this one. TLT and Cluster Missiles are still two separate attacks (many FAQ entry still refers to first and second attack regarding to these cards), and the modify dice step happens twice. You have to spend token on both attacks (if you have).

On the contrary, it would be a MASSIVE buff to TLTs if that were how it was supposed to work - because now EVERY defensive ability only works once per TLT shot. Autothrusters, focus token, evade token (multiples being fairly easy to obtain), lone wolf, Rey pilot, Finn crew, etc etc etc etc etc etc. TLTs go from probably overpowered to absolutely frigging dominant. You only get to use each offensive mod once, but offensive mods are much easier to get, generally more effective, and red dice >green dice.

It seems pretty safe to say that's not how it's supposed to work.

doesnt "when attacking" or "when defending" specifically refer to rolling dice?

for instance, i know that the scum ywing that adds a die out of arc does it "when attacking" and it works on both tlt shots. As do Cluster Missile shenanigans for 2 4die hits.

HSCP follows the same rule idea to me.

In FAQ 4.1.1 we've got this as an entry for TLT:

Again, Cluster Missiles is similar.

Am I just imagining a "Perform this attack twice" block or are my searching skills for crap this morning?

doesnt "when attacking" or "when defending" specifically refer to rolling dice?

for instance, i know that the scum ywing that adds a die out of arc does it "when attacking" and it works on both tlt shots. As do Cluster Missile shenanigans for 2 4die hits.

HSCP follows the same rule idea to me.

It definitely extends at least until "Compare Results" based on the wording on Crack Shot. I'm look to see if there are any abilities with that window that take place in the Deal Damage step.

doesnt "when attacking" or "when defending" specifically refer to rolling dice?

for instance, i know that the scum ywing that adds a die out of arc does it "when attacking" and it works on both tlt shots. As do Cluster Missile shenanigans for 2 4die hits.

HSCP follows the same rule idea to me.

It definitely extends at least until "Compare Results" based on the wording on Crack Shot. I'm look to see if there are any abilities with that window that take place in the Deal Damage step.

Xizor's ability might happen 7, but it could also probably happen in 6.

I haven't gotten useful results from including my own thought process in the past, so at this point I just ask the questions about our test cases, and leave it to the forum to decide what they're a precedent for/against.

Basically, I would cut everything from "Before the introduction of the timing chart..." to "...instead of two as they did previously."

In the question about predator I suggest replacing "each shot" with "both shots" for clarity and emphasis.

I think it is a HUGE leap to start allowing for mechanics to not happen on their first trigger just because we are "confident" there will be another opportunity. "Knowing" another opportunity will happen is just way to liberal an interpretation (imo).

If the TLT shoots at Dengar and the requirements are met for a return shot, are we suddenly so confident the second shot will happen? Could there not be future cards that could interrupt that sequence as well? I don't think the game rules care that you are "sure" you'll get the second shot.

Implying meaning to the absence of "this attack" is a bad precedent for lots of cards.

I think it is a HUGE leap to start allowing for mechanics to not happen on their first trigger just because we are "confident" there will be another opportunity.

No, that's not true at all. There's a lot of cases where mechanics can be skipped over because something happens after it triggers to disallow it.

For example, if someone had Mara Jade, and at the start of combat someone was able to give a ship that didn't have one a stress, then Mara wouldn't give it a second one. Or you could eject the astromech using Integrated Astromech before Boba Fett can force you to discard it

A major part of the rules is that when you have more than one effect for a given trigger you get to decide what order to process those triggers in.

If the TLT shoots at Dengar and the requirements are met for a return shot, are we suddenly so confident the second shot will happen? Could there not be future cards that could interrupt that sequence as well? I don't think the game rules care that you are "sure" you'll get the second shot.

The second shot is mandatory and occurs even if both ships somehow take enough hull damage to be destroyed. Dengar's ability will never interrupt a TLT attack.

The problem is that we have a mandatory effect that does not have a specifically defined timing window and it has an open ended requirement to satisfy. It appears that FFG didn't want to force the token to be spent modifying eyeballs at the earliest opportunity because it would have probably been easier and more straight-forward to say just that. The language used would permit any use of a focus token during the attack.

This is clearly a case where without knowing RAI... This upgrade is a mess. Perhaps we need to email FFG a general question about what the RAI is for it.

If no one else does so, I'll do it in a bit.

This is clearly a case where without knowing RAI... This upgrade is a mess. Perhaps we need to email FFG a general question about what the RAI is for it.

If no one else does so, I'll do it in a bit.

I've sent them one about Accuracy Corrector and one about whether it is intended to be a cost or if the token can be spent on anything during the attack to satisfy the requirement.

It probably wouldn't hurt to have someone other than me sending in questions about HSCP.

No, that's not true at all. There's a lot of cases where mechanics can be skipped over because something happens after it triggers to disallow it.

For example, if someone had Mara Jade, and at the start of combat someone was able to give a ship that didn't have one a stress, then Mara wouldn't give it a second one. Or you could eject the astromech using Integrated Astromech before Boba Fett can force you to discard it

I would respectfully point out that in this scenario, the order of operations executed has made the second effect not possible. In the thread's original example of two-attack abilities, absolutely nothing disallows the use of the defenders focus on the first attack. There is simply a presumption that since it will be around for the second attack, you could chose to wait until then.