I would respectfully point out that in this scenario, the order of operations executed has made the second effect not possible.

I'll admit I started to merge the two HSCP threads together...

There is simply a presumption that since it will be around for the second attack, you could chose to wait until then.

Unless we assume that the focus token must be spent ASAP, then there is no need to spend it for the first attack since there will be a second opportunity to spend it. The second attack with TLT isn't optional, so it's not like you can chose to not take the second attack to avoid spending the focus token.

Now were the second attack optional then that would make things different.

No, that's not true at all. There's a lot of cases where mechanics can be skipped over because something happens after it triggers to disallow it.

For example, if someone had Mara Jade, and at the start of combat someone was able to give a ship that didn't have one a stress, then Mara wouldn't give it a second one. Or you could eject the astromech using Integrated Astromech before Boba Fett can force you to discard it

I would respectfully point out that in this scenario, the order of operations executed has made the second effect not possible. In the thread's original example of two-attack abilities, absolutely nothing disallows the use of the defenders focus on the first attack. There is simply a presumption that since it will be around for the second attack, you could chose to wait until then.

Actually, what I think the flowchart might be showing is that there aren't two separate "when attacking/defending" windows with TLT attacks. You would still within the original window when the second shot occurs. Once the first shot from TLT occurs, there is nothing that will stop the second shot from happening.

I might be totally wrong about it being a single window. If it is a single window than the attacker must satisfy the requirement for both shots.

The second shot is mandatory and occurs even if both ships somehow take enough hull damage to be destroyed. Dengar's ability will never interrupt a TLT attack.

My understanding of the rules is that if TLT shoots at Dengar (in arc), one of the possible outcomes is as such:

1) First TLT shot resolves

2) Dengar shoots back

3) Second TLT shot resolves

If HSCP is not mandated on the first shot, then why couldn't Dengar use his focus on his return shot, as per HSCP? The point is, lots of things can happen when we start interpreting cards as non-mandatory simply because words aren't on the card. At a minimum, I think it is much wiser to assume HSCP IS mandatory on the first possible activation window until we hear otherwise.

The second shot is mandatory and occurs even if both ships somehow take enough hull damage to be destroyed. Dengar's ability will never interrupt a TLT attack.

My understanding of the rules is that if TLT shoots at Dengar (in arc), one of the possible outcomes is as such:

1) First TLT shot resolves

2) Dengar shoots back

3) Second TLT shot resolves

If HSCP is not mandated on the first shot, then why couldn't Dengar use his focus on his return shot, as per HSCP? The point is, lots of things can happen when we start interpreting cards as non-mandatory simply because words aren't on the card. At a minimum, I think it is much wiser to assume HSCP IS mandatory on the first possible activation window until we hear otherwise.

Your understanding is incorrect (but would have been right before the timing chart was added to the FAQ). After attacking and defending abilities do not trigger until after both shots from TLT have been resolved.

If the TLT carrier has HSCP then Dengar would need to spend a focus when he attacks it with his normal attack, he would also need to spend a focus if he uses the attack from his ability to counter attack the TLT carrier (assuming he has a focus token during each attack).

"Perform this attack twice" weapons are considered as 2 separate attacks .

Why is this being questioned all of a sudden?

Being 2 attacks, HSCP's effect is applied twice. Possibly stripping the enemy of 2 focus tokens.

I don't see the source of the confusion here...

It probably wouldn't hurt to have someone other than me sending in questions about HSCP.

I sent them an email with a somewhat generic question about it. Hopefully that will shed some light on how to resolve these issues.

To use WWHSD's sequence posted previously :

ATTACK ONE :

"Perform this attack twice" weapons are considered as 2 separate attacks .

Why is this being questioned all of a sudden?

Being 2 attacks, HSCP's effect is applied twice. Possibly stripping the enemy of 2 focus tokens.

I don't see the source of the confusion here...

Are they still? If the current FAQ or rules says that is the case then I'm missing it.

I don't see the source of the confusion here...

The confusion is, I think... What if you only have one focus token. Do you have to spend it for the first TLT attack or can you save it for the second one?

If you have to spend it ASAP, then you clearly can't save it for the second attack.

But if both shots from the TLT are part of the same Attack, then you could because you have until you finish the attack process to fulfil the requirement that HSCP has.

I mean, sure the card has some confusing interactions (mainly Accuracy Corrector), but we don't need to question everything about it...

Per the page 7 chart... Secondary weapons that say "Perform this attack twice" trigger before Step 8 happens, and after step 6 or 7 depending on if you hit or not, you go back to step 5 for the second attack.

Only after the second attack from a TLT do you go to step 8 for the After Attacking/Defending abilities. That means that both shots from TLL are as far as I can tell part of the same Attack process.

To use WWHSD's sequence posted previously :

ATTACK ONE :

1. “Declare Target” step

2. “Roll Attack Dice” step

3. “Modify Attack Dice” step

4. “Roll Defense Dice” step

5. “Modify Defense Dice” step

6. “Compare Results” step (skip 7 and go straight to 2 if the attack misses)

7. “Deal Damage” step

ATTACK TWO :

2. “Roll Attack Dice” step

3. “Modify Attack Dice” step

4. “Roll Defense Dice” step

5. “Modify Defense Dice” step

6. “Compare Results” step (skip 7 and go straight to 8 if the attack misses)

7. “Deal Damage” step

8. Identify abilities that trigger “after attacking” or “after defending” (that do not perform an attack)

9. Identify abilities that trigger “after attacking” or “after defending” that perform an attack (such as BTL-A4 Y-wing, Dengar [ship], Gunner, etc.)

10. Remove destroyed ships

Each attack allows "When attacking / defending" abilities to be used (Predator, HSCP, etc.).

Are they still? If the current FAQ or rules says that is the case then I'm missing it.

There are a few FAQ entries still talks about "first" and "second" attacks:

Latts Razzi:

[...] when using a secondary weapon that says “perform this attack twice,” Latts Razzi’s ability can only be used during the first attack and only applies to the first attack .

Valen Rudor:

When defending against a secondary weapon that says “perform this attack twice,” the player controlling Valen Rudor can use his ability only once, and only after the second attack .

Darth Vader (crew):

If a ship equipped with Darth Vader performs a secondary weapon attack that says “perform this attack twice,” Darth Vader can be used only once, and only after the second attack .

Tactician and R3-A2 are similar.

What if you only have one focus token. Do you have to spend it for the first TLT attack or can you save it for the second one?

Yes, you do. That is 100% clear to me.

Assuming the defender has HSCP:

• The first TLT shot is an attack. The attacker must spend a focus token if able.
• The second TLT shot is an attack. The attacker must spend a focus token if able.

Per the page 7 chart... Secondary weapons that say "Perform this attack twice" trigger before Step 8 happens, and after step 6 or 7 depending on if you hit or not, you go back to step 5 step 2 for the second attack.

Only after the second attack from a TLT do you go to step 8 for the After Attacking/Defending abilities. That means that both shots from TLL are as far as I can tell part of the same Attack process.

(I'm assuming you meant "step 2" on that first sentence )

Is it the fact that the " Is this the first attack from a secondary weapon that says “Perform this attack twice”? " block from the chart simply has an arrow pointing to step 2 that makes you think it's the same attack sequence?

If so, I'll point out that the " Is an ability being resolved during Step 9? " block also simply has an arrow pointing back to step 1.

Therefore, by the same logic, an attack from Gunner would also be part of the same Attack process - and we all know that's not the case*.

*If anyone questions THAT, I give up.

Are they still? If the current FAQ or rules says that is the case then I'm missing it.

There are a few FAQ entries still talks about "first" and "second" attacks:

Latts Razzi:

[...] when using a secondary weapon that says “perform this attack twice,” Latts Razzi’s ability can only be used during the first attack and only applies to the first attack .

Valen Rudor:

When defending against a secondary weapon that says “perform this attack twice,” the player controlling Valen Rudor can use his ability only once, and only after the second attack .

Darth Vader (crew):

If a ship equipped with Darth Vader performs a secondary weapon attack that says “perform this attack twice,” Darth Vader can be used only once, and only after the second attack .

Tactician and R3-A2 are similar.

What if you only have one focus token. Do you have to spend it for the first TLT attack or can you save it for the second one?

Yes, you do. That is 100% clear to me.

Assuming the defender has HSCP:

• The first TLT shot is an attack. The attacker must spend a focus token if able.
• The second TLT shot is an attack. The attacker must spend a focus token if able.

I'm not saying that you're wrong, and that's definitely the way things used to work. At what point does the "While attacking/defending" window open and close for each attack?

I really wish they'd update the RRG to be compatible with the FAQ. Keep all the actual rules in the RRG and just use the FAQ for clarifications and errata.

Therefore, by the same logic, an attack from Gunner would also be part of the same Attack process - and we all know that's not the case*.

That's a good point. But like WWHSD asked, when exactly does the attack process end?

I mean if you go back to step 2 before doing step 8... Then you haven't gotten to the After Attacking/Defending' state so I'd have to think you haven't finished the attack process.

Gunner on the other hand happens after the After Attacking/Defending phase.

Per the page 7 chart... Secondary weapons that say "Perform this attack twice" trigger before Step 8 happens, and after step 6 or 7 depending on if you hit or not, you go back to step 5 step 2 for the second attack.

Only after the second attack from a TLT do you go to step 8 for the After Attacking/Defending abilities. That means that both shots from TLL are as far as I can tell part of the same Attack process.

(I'm assuming you meant "step 2" on that first sentence )

Is it the fact that the " Is this the first attack from a secondary weapon that says “Perform this attack twice”? " block from the chart simply has an arrow pointing to step 2 that makes you think it's the same attack sequence?

If so, I'll point out that the " Is an ability being resolved during Step 9? " block also simply has an arrow pointing back to step 1.

Therefore, by the same logic, an attack from Gunner would also be part of the same Attack process - and we all know that's not the case*.

*If anyone questions THAT, I give up.

I think that trying to figure out how the flow charts that result from a missed attack against Manaroo that is used to trigger Han's Gunner attack against Dengar which triggers Dengar's counter attack against Han all properly nest would hurt my brain more than trying to figure out if the top stopped spinning or not at the end of Inception.

At what point does the "While attacking/defending" window open and close for each attack?

When the attack starts, and the attack ends...

To use WWHSD's sequence posted previously :

ATTACK ONE :

"When attacking" abilities for attack one can be resolved starting now.

1. “Declare Target” step

2. “Roll Attack Dice” step

3. “Modify Attack Dice” step

4. “Roll Defense Dice” step

5. “Modify Defense Dice” step

6. “Compare Results” step (skip 7 and go straight to 2 if the attack misses)

7. “Deal Damage” step

"When attacking" abilities for attack one can no longer be resolved.

ATTACK TWO :

"When attacking" abilities for attack two can be resolved starting now.

2. “Roll Attack Dice” step

3. “Modify Attack Dice” step

4. “Roll Defense Dice” step

5. “Modify Defense Dice” step

6. “Compare Results” step (skip 7 and go straight to 8 if the attack misses)

7. “Deal Damage” step

8. Identify abilities that trigger “after attacking” or “after defending” (that do not perform an attack)

9. Identify abilities that trigger “after attacking” or “after defending” that perform an attack (such as BTL-A4 Y-wing, Dengar [ship], Gunner, etc.)

10. Remove destroyed ships

"When attacking" abilities for attack two can no longer be resolved.

I think that trying to figure out how the flow charts that result from a missed attack against Manaroo that is used to trigger Han's Gunner attack against Dengar which triggers Dengar's counter attack against Han all properly nest would hurt my brain more than trying to figure out if the top stopped spinning or not at the end of Inception.

Challenge accepted!!

• Attack A: Han vs Manaroo (miss)
• Attack B: Han Gunner vs Dengar
• Attack C: Dengar vs Han

That was too easy.

More complicated scenario!

Rebel player has: Han+Gunner, New Chewbacca+Gunner, a Bandit Z-95.

Scum player has: Dengar with Gunner. Initiative.

• Attack A: Han attacks Dengar (miss)
• Attack B: Dengar vs Han (miss)
• Attack C: Dengar's Gunner attack vs a Bandit (Bandit gets 2 facedown damage cards, will be destroyed)
• Attack D: Han's Gunner attack vs Dengar
• Z-95 destroyed.
• Attack D: (new) Chewbacca's attack vs Dengar (miss)
• Attack E: (new) Chewbacca's Gunner attack vs Dengar

There. Ha!

I'm not saying that you're wrong, and that's definitely the way things used to work. At what point does the "While attacking/defending" window open and close for each attack?

"While attacking/defending" is not a window by itself, but has several possible windows, depending on what you are doing. If you are talking about modifying attack dice while attacking, than the actual timing window is the "modify attack dice" step, and it is very clearly defined when it opens and closes.

On the contrary, it would be a MASSIVE buff to TLTs if that were how it was supposed to work - because now EVERY defensive ability only works once per TLT shot. Autothrusters, focus token, evade token (multiples being fairly easy to obtain), lone wolf, Rey pilot, Finn crew, etc etc etc etc etc etc. TLTs go from probably overpowered to absolutely frigging dominant. You only get to use each offensive mod once, but offensive mods are much easier to get, generally more effective, and red dice >green dice.

It seems pretty safe to say that's not how it's supposed to work.

Jup, TLT nightmare. I guess I know what I am going to fly next. Doubt that this is RAI, because it would totally change the game massively ;-)

Though hot show co-pilot is imo very clear regardless. You are able to spend 1 focus token, it does not seem to limit the amount of opportunities, just orders to you spend 1 token at each opportunity while attacking or defending, so no waiting for the second modification phase when TLTs are involved. Now if you can not spend a second focus token against the second TLT shot or can not use autothrusters twice against TLT in that case you still would need to spend that focus on the first shot, because that is an opportunity to spend the focus.