Latest FAQ for Garven Dreis (Page 10)

A ship may spend a focus token during an attack even if there are 0 focus results to change (including an attack where no dice are rolled, such as when a ship has a faceup Blinded Pilot Damage card [original Damage deck])

And

Spending tokens (page 6)

When attacking, players may spend target locks and choose to reroll 0 attack dice.
Additionally, players may spend a focus token even if they do not roll any results.
When defending, players may spend focus tokens even if they do not roll any focus results and may spend evade tokens to add evade results in excess of the number of hit and critical hit results.

HSCP

When attacking with a primary weapon, the defender must spend 1 focus token if able.

When defending, the attacker must spend 1 token if able.

Given the FAQ entries that say that the rules permit you to spend a focus token even when you do not roll any focus results, it would seem that the only time you are not able to spend a focus token is when you do not have one.

In other words, if you have a focus token and you attack, or are attacked by, a ship with HSCP, you will be forced to spend the token regardless of what you roll.

Make sense?

Yep - as the designers intended.

Going to be awesome.

I'd agree. Unless Carnor is there, or the attacker for some reason uses 4LOM crew to block the token being spent.

The Accuracy Corrector argument (that you can choose to use AC to block the modification of dice, which blocks the spending of the token) I think doesn't hold up. There's a way you can do your modify dice step such that the token can be spent - by spending it first. So you have to do it that way.

I'd agree. Unless Carnor is there, or the attacker for some reason uses 4LOM crew to block the token being spent.

The Accuracy Corrector argument (that you can choose to use AC to block the modification of dice, which blocks the spending of the token) I think doesn't hold up. There's a way you can do your modify dice step such that the token can be spent - by spending it first. So you have to do it that way.

Not sure about that - while the attacker must spend a focus if he's able, it's up the the attacker to choose which order he performs his dice mods in if he has more than one way to do it

If his first dice mod happens to be one which prohibits any further dice mods - like AC does - then he's in the clear

There's a way you can do your modify dice step such that the token can be spent - by spending it first. So you have to do it that way.

The rules don't really work that way though.

Just because you intend to do something that will prevent you from spending it, doesn't mean you have to preemptively spend it now. You can't spend a focus token if you use Accuracy Corrector, but RAW it doesn't follow that you have to spend it before that, just because you can't spend it afterwards.

The rules can't look into the future and say 'if you're going to do something later, you have to do something now...'

And that's where we'll have to disagree until an FAQ rules one way or the other.

And that's where we'll have to disagree until an FAQ rules one way or the other.

But you would agree that if an attacker has multiple ways to modify their attack dice (Guidance chips, Focus tokens, Target locks, Peredator, etc etc) he can resolve those dice modifications in any order he wishes

Correct?

Yes.

Unless something specifies an order, by, say, requiring that he spend a focus token during the attack.

I can understand the argument for Accuracy Corrector working to block HSCP. I just don't think it holds up compared to a simple reading of the HSCP card.

I just don't think it holds up compared to a simple reading of the HSCP card.

Now assuming this is an image of the final version... I have the answer.

The card says "the defender must spend 1 focus token if able ." If that's the final text then there is no issue because of that "if able" part.

That is the correct wording, and that's my point.

The attacker must spend 1 focus token if able. An attacker with AC is able to spend a focus token, so it must. If it uses Accuracy Corrector to block itself, it's breaking the rule that says it must, because it didn't whilst it was able.

As ever, I've been wrong before, but I think this is a case that really needs an FAQ to clarify intent.

(I don't usually use AC anyway and nor does anyone locally to me use it much, so I'm not anticipating this being an issue in practice tbh)

A simple reading of HSCP is "if you can spend a focus token, you must spend a focus token"

A simple reading of AC says "if you use me you can't spend focus tokens"

An attacker with AC is able to spend a focus token, so it must.

Sorry but that's where you're wrong. An attacker with AC is not able to spend a focus token after using AC.

it's breaking the rule that says it must, because it didn't whilst it was able.

But the rule actually says it must if able, and at that point is no longer able to spend the token. Also there's the whole 'can't trumps must' rule...

Based on that line of thinking, you could say that a ship that is going to be attacked by a ship with HSCP has to take the focus action, because it must have a focus token to spend.

A simple reading of HSCP is "if you can spend a focus token, you must spend a focus token"

A simple reading of AC says "if you use me you can't spend focus tokens"

And the logical extension of that is 'you can't use AC until after you've spent the focus token, in order to satisfy the requirements of HSCP.

And the logical extension of that is 'you can't use AC until after you've spent the focus token, in order to satisfy the requirements of HSCP.

There's nothing in the rule that can preemptively force you to do something, because you may or may not do something else later.

The rules do however say that when you have two effects you get to pick which order they process in.

An attacker with AC is able to spend a focus token, so it must.

Sorry but that's where you're wrong. An attacker with AC is not able to spend a focus token after using AC.

it's breaking the rule that says it must, because it didn't whilst it was able.

But the rule actually says it must if able, and at that point is no longer able to spend the token. Also there's the whole 'can't trumps must' rule...

Based on that line of thinking, you could say that a ship that is going to be attacked by a ship with HSCP has to take the focus action, because it must have a focus token to spend.

Not at all.

HSCP only works when attacking or defending. It considers the current state of the ship when the attack or defence is initiated, not before or after.

The attacker with AC is able to spend a focus token, so he has to do so. If he chooses to activate AC, he has to spend a focus token before doing so.

I don't see how this is so hard to comprehend.

It's transparently obvious that neither side of this argument will be persuaded, so I'm going to stop responding to it.

I don't see how this is so hard to comprehend.

Disagreement doesn't mean I don't comprehend something, and suggesting such is rather condescending.

I understand what you're saying, but IMO there is nothing in the rules that actually supports your position.

Edit: Which doesn't mean FFG won't rule via FAQ that you do in fact have to spend the focus token at the first opportunity, I could easily see them doing that. But as it stands RAW I don't see anything to support that position and if it came up when I was the TO I'd say that AC trumps HSCP.

I arrived at the same conclusion as spaceinvader. Although the attacker has a choice of which to resolve first, resolving AC first leads to an illegal game state by not doing what the HSCP card says. Thus the focus token must be spent first.

That's my opinion anyway. I'm happy to wait until a post-release FAQ before it ever occurs on my tabletop.

I don't see how this is so hard to comprehend.

Disagreement doesn't mean I don't comprehend something, and suggesting such is rather condescending.

Apologies, that was not my intention.

Question for thespaceinvader and Cactus:

If a ship has a TL on Wedge, can it fire a Torpedo at Wedge, or must it fire its primary weapon at Biggs?

(Assuming both possible targets are in your arc, and at range 1 of each other, of course.)

Question for thespaceinvader and Cactus:

If a ship has a TL on Wedge, can it fire a Torpedo at Wedge, or must it fire its primary weapon at Biggs?

(Assuming both possible targets are in your arc, and at range 1 of each other, of course.)

No because FAQ. Basically. Until that time we had assumed (or it might even have been in the FAQ) that yes, it did in fact have to fire its primary at Biggs.

I know what you're getting at though.

I can understand the argument, I just think it's wrong.

Snip. Never mind. Misread that.

Gotta go finish my coffee.

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Ok, got a weird scenario:

Attacker: Wedge with Cool Hand.

Defender: Rear Admiral Chiraneau with Rebel Captive and Hotshot Co-Pilot

When Wedge receives the stress from Rebel Captive, is he required to discard Cool Hand to get a focus token to spend?

There's two possible ways to read this card... Either way seems to break something in some corner cases.

Either the card forces you to spend the focus token at the first opportunity to do so, which breaks the rule about being able to decide which order to process effects in.

Or it can be ignored if you can set up a condition where spending the token isn't allowed, which effectively breaks the upgrade card itself.

Myself I believe that given the fairly rare case in which you can break the upgrade is better than breaking the rules about picking the order to process things in.

But either way is valid at least until we know what the true RAI are, which will require a FAQ or at least an email.

Snip. Never mind. Misread that.

Gotta go finish my coffee.

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Ok, got a weird scenario:

Attacker: Wedge with Cool Hand.

Defender: Rear Admiral Chiraneau with Rebel Captive and Hotshot Co-Pilot

When Wedge receives the stress from Rebel Captive, is he required to discard Cool Hand to get a focus token to spend?

I would say not, because my RAI line of thought says that's a greater effect than intended for HSCP. I realise that goes against my previous argument, but when there's this big a hole in the RAW what else ya gonna do? *shrug*

PS. Please don't create examples using pilots whose ability is not relevant to the scenario. The only X-wings I own came in the core sets and I had go and look up Wedge's rules.

Snip. Never mind. Misread that.

Gotta go finish my coffee.

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Ok, got a weird scenario:

Attacker: Wedge with Cool Hand.

Defender: Rear Admiral Chiraneau with Rebel Captive and Hotshot Co-Pilot

When Wedge receives the stress from Rebel Captive, is he required to discard Cool Hand to get a focus token to spend?

Interesting one. Going by prior rulings in similar situations, no, but if he chooses to use Cool Hand to gain a focus, he must spend it.

Someone should write all of these edge cases down and submit them as a rules question. This one's a doozy...

I would say not, because my RAI line of thought says that's a greater effect than intended for HSCP. I realise that goes against my previous argument, but when there's this big a hole in the RAW what else ya gonna do? *shrug*

See, this is one of my problems with the argument that HSCP forces the attacker to perform abilities in certain orders:

It leads to a whole bunch of edge cases where there are possibly contorted ways to force a ship to spend a focus token, and the only way to rule on each one depends on, quoting from your response: "RAI", "line of thought" and "intended". Those are all bad words in a rules discussion, because they're all very subjective.

• You are forced to spend the focus token before Accuracy Corrector, because I think that's ok.
• You aren't forced to spend Cool Hand to gain a focus, because I think that would be OP.

Or it can be ignored if you can set up a condition where spending the token isn't allowed, which effectively breaks the upgrade card itself.

Then again, Accuracy Corrector doesn't " break " HSCP any more than the Inquisitor " breaks " Autothrusters...

I maintain that the enemy ship retains the right to activate abilities in any order, and the choice of using or not any "may" abilities.

It makes all future rulings simple, and does not rely on any RAI and personal opinions.

PS. Please don't create examples using pilots whose ability is not relevant to the scenario. The only X-wings I own came in the core sets and I had go and look up Wedge's rules.

PS: Wedge has been around since wave 1!! I just picked him cause his ability has no impact at all in this scenario, and I wanted a pilot with an EPT slot.