I think the Punisher unfortunately came out too early, if it came out now I'm sure it would have a 0/1pt title which did something to make it a more interesting/viable bomb carrier.

It came out too early like a cake from the oven - a soupy, unsalvageable mess!

The Punisher needs some in-built way to fire its munitions without using its modest action allowance that boost wastes, a way to survive incoming enemy fire, or both.

For now, it has the crown of the worst ship in the game since the Scyk fix launched and the new timing ended the FCS/Cluster Missile synergy.

Boost does allow the ship to reposition a bit early on in the match. I used Boost extensively in an Epic match to reposition 8 Tie Punishers for when they would be jousting the next round or two. It has it's uses, but once you are in position you aren't boosting as you are trying to get that target lock.

You can see the match here:

3 hours video...

...any rough idea of a timestamp or two?

Edit: Oh yeah, back on topic. Deathrain + Experimental Interface + Action bombs + Boost allows him to maneuver, boost to adjust his direction as needed, drop an Action bomb on your head, and then barrel roll away. If he used BR to adjust before dropping the bomb, he would not be able to free action BR after.

So, it works for that one. For all Punishers not named Deathrain? Hmm, cause they are slow as heck but didn't get SLAM like the K-Wings did *shrug*. Similar to the K's, Boost + EI still lets them adjust their position and then drop a Conner, Prox or Cluster mine to try to trip up someone passing by. So, instead of Maneuver + Advanced SLAM + Bomb, its Maneuver + Boost + EI Bomb.

The Punisher needs some in-built way to fire its munitions without using its modest action allowance that boost wastes, a way to survive incoming enemy fire, or both.

"Whenever you perform a boost action, aquire a TL"

This gives the punisher better range control than the bomber, and make FCS less of a "must take"

Clearly, it has boost, because boosting is FUN

The Punisher needs some in-built way to fire its munitions without using its modest action allowance that boost wastes, a way to survive incoming enemy fire, or both.

"Whenever you perform a boost action, aquire a TL"

This gives the punisher better range control than the bomber, and make FCS less of a "must take"

That would be neat. DOes nothing for the bomber variant though. Instead:

When you boost you may either drop a bomb as though you were revealing a manoeuvre, or after completing the boost, acquire a target lock on an enemy ship in your firing arc

After you place a bomb token, this ship may take a free boost action. Would work as a start of turn reposition before your manoeuvre, or as a reposition when you take and Action?

Actually, having it as a dual card would be neat.

One side being about bombs, the other being about shooty ordnance.

The Punisher needs some in-built way to fire its munitions without using its modest action allowance that boost wastes, a way to survive incoming enemy fire, or both.

For now, it has the crown of the worst ship in the game since the Scyk fix launched and the new timing ended the FCS/Cluster Missile synergy.

In terms of the generics, allowing them to do something with ordnance that no other ship can do might help it out.

How about a Punisher only mod that allows you to ignore the Attack: [Target Lock] header and treat it as Attack - effectively doing away with the TL restrictions that make low PS ships next to useless as ordnance carriers.

Could be a System upgrade instead, but (lesson learned from UBoats) putting it in the mod slot stops it from getting too overpowered by guidance chips.

If they can hit hard enough, their poor survivability is less of an issue.

Doesn't do much for the named pilots - apart from making FCS Cluster Redline work like it used to - but then the named pilots have different issues mostly down to the cost of giving them a loadout that complements their abilities

I like the system specific upgrade idea. Easily made into Punisher only just like ATC and ACD on their respective ships.

Maybe an upgrade that allows the TP to fire an additional warhead attack against another target after completing a first? I mean the thing has 4 warhead launchers, why should it be limited to using only 1 at a time?

You'd need somebody feeding you TLs or Focus tokens since LRS couldn't be added and it might just make Munitions Failsafe somewhat more viable as you don't want to blow through 2 ordnance cards a turn unless you were actually getting hits.

Either way it makes it a ship that needs to be escorted to live long enough to carry out its mission. Almost like... a bomber?

system mod

Tie punisher only

-2 pts

You may treat ' ATTACK (TARGET LOCK): ' header as ' ATTACK: '.

Once per turn, If a game effect instructs you to spend a target lock, you may ignore it.

Once per turn, after an attack, you may make another attack with a secondary weapon or you may perform a bomb Upgrade card action as a free action.

Keep the generic punisher more expensive the tie bombers and aces roughly equal to their PS counter parts (deathrain to jonus and redline to tomax) which is offset by having no EPT while giving the punisher more flexibility during combat as well as gives the punisher a much more agressive style of fighting rather than the bomber. The punisher will like using boost and getting in close about to fire at 1 target with a secondary weapon without a TL or if it does decide to TL can fire two secondary weapons a turn and there is something for deathfire and bomb style punishers. Bombers on the other hand like to keep to range and use LRS, punishers get in close with chips.

Would this fix the punisher without making the Tie bomber obsolete or replacing the tie bomber's use as a cheap ordance?

It has boost instead of barrel roll (all TIEs have reposition actions, all but the Punisher have barrel roll) for shenangians with bombs.

Are those shenanigans really worth the points though? The punisher could have easily been 4 points cheaper without boost. I think even barrel roll and a -2 reduction instead of boost would still be better, even though I'd still never use it.

And where are you getting those numbers from? Because if you say Vectored Thrusters and Engine Upgrade I might just scream. Then I'll ask you if a B-wing without shields is worth 1 point because that's what costing ships based on upgrade cards predicts.

Ships aren't costed by formula. They design a ship with all the stats and abilities they want to make it work and then they price it. If they felt the Punisher was too expensive during design they'd just make it cheaper.

My point is simply that the punisher would have been better with a point reduction instead of repositioning actions IMO. Does it really matter what random values are assigned to a theoretical fix that will never happen? Perhaps you could suggest some ideas of your own? Seems more productive than screaming.

And my point is that a point reduction doesn't require the removal of repositioning actions. You simply make the point cost lower.

system mod

Tie punisher only

-2 pts

You may treat ' ATTACK (TARGET LOCK): ' header as ' ATTACK: '.

Once per turn, If a game effect instructs you to spend a target lock, you may ignore it.

Once per turn, after an attack, you may make another attack with a secondary weapon or you may perform a bomb Upgrade card action as a free action.

Keep the generic punisher more expensive the tie bombers and aces roughly equal to their PS counter parts (deathrain to jonus and redline to tomax) which is offset by having no EPT while giving the punisher more flexibility during combat as well as gives the punisher a much more agressive style of fighting rather than the bomber. The punisher will like using boost and getting in close about to fire at 1 target with a secondary weapon without a TL or if it does decide to TL can fire two secondary weapons a turn and there is something for deathfire and bomb style punishers. Bombers on the other hand like to keep to range and use LRS, punishers get in close with chips.

Would this fix the punisher without making the Tie bomber obsolete or replacing the tie bomber's use as a cheap ordance?

I like that idea. A few comments:

I dont think negative point costs are appropiate, the effect is incredibly strong.

Shooting the same target with 2 cluster missiles are potentially 12 damage in one turn. I`d suggest that you may only shoot another target than the first one.

And dropping a proton bomb without the enemy being able to react to it might be pretty overpowered.

What I don't like is that is doesnt use the things only the punisher can do, the boost and the systems slot. Your solution probably is functional, but not elegant.

The Punisher is simply begging to be an ordnance shotgun. The only other justification for its creation by the Empire (instead of just creating additional swarms of TIE Bombers) would be for it to carry heavier or more specialized ordnance that smaller bombers could not.

A fighter-bomber can launch a comparable amount of firepower as a battleship broadside, but a heavy bomber could drop a nuke capable of damaging the whole of Texas.

Unfortunately, ordnance in this game is more of a plug and play enhancement rather than being dependent on the size of the ship carrying it. It would have been interesting if the KW and TP were able to field munitions that the other TIE and letter wings just couldn't handle?

It would be a huge stretch, but perhaps if a future huge ship is released with a 'Huge ship only' ordnance upgrade, it could also come with a title that would allow the Punisher to carry it as well?

At least as relayed in FFG's RPG products, the TIE/IT (Called Interdictor in the testbed phase, "Punisher" is when the design was later actually mass produced) is a long-range bomber developed around the Yavin period designed for long-range strikes and more self-sufficiency, but without needing to start changing up the usual deployment doctrine with hyperdrives. To prevent problems like the battle of Yavin, TIE/ITs were supposed to be deployed from carriers at a range outside the ability for Rebel fighters to intercept or counterattack, and be able to close in on fortified enemy bases and carry enough ordinance to destroy them without needing to run all the way back to their carrier ship to resupply.

This is true, but how do you convey 'long-range' onto the X-Wing ruleset? About the only thing we have to denote that is the Gonzanti's ability to detach TIE Fighters during a match. Otherwise, every ship is considered to be at an equal advantage regardless of any perceived distance traveled.

So Boost could easily be a welcome addition to any ship that is put out in the middle of nowhere while Systems upgrades could denote the powerful sensors that it needs to find its target from such a distance, but how do we institute that long range capability into the limits of a 3X3 mat? Deployment outside of the normal zone?

Otherwise, we need to consider that game mechanics>fluff and figure out a way to make the Punisher a special snowflake rather than a bloated bomber with one extra bomb, a system, and no chance of getting everything off before that one green die fails 9 times.

The Punisher is simply begging to be an ordnance shotgun. The only other justification for its creation by the Empire (instead of just creating additional swarms of TIE Bombers) would be for it to carry heavier or more specialized ordnance that smaller bombers could not.

A fighter-bomber can launch a comparable amount of firepower as a battleship broadside, but a heavy bomber could drop a nuke capable of damaging the whole of Texas.

Unfortunately, ordnance in this game is more of a plug and play enhancement rather than being dependent on the size of the ship carrying it. It would have been interesting if the KW and TP were able to field munitions that the other TIE and letter wings just couldn't handle?

It would be a huge stretch, but perhaps if a future huge ship is released with a 'Huge ship only' ordnance upgrade, it could also come with a title that would allow the Punisher to carry it as well?

The Punisher is bigger than a Bomber but there's nothing to indicate that it can carry any more massive ordnance than the standard TIE/sa. Each ordnance pod is identical to the original Bomber port pod. But this has been said before. It's all part of. Modular system designed by Seinar when they devised the TIEs. If you wanted a Super Bomber with 4 times the munitions then add more pods! Want a TIE Fighter with more guns? Add some guns on the wings! Want even more guns, add another wing!

At least as relayed in FFG's RPG products, the TIE/IT (Called Interdictor in the testbed phase, "Punisher" is when the design was later actually mass produced) is a long-range bomber developed around the Yavin period designed for long-range strikes and more self-sufficiency, but without needing to start changing up the usual deployment doctrine with hyperdrives. To prevent problems like the battle of Yavin, TIE/ITs were supposed to be deployed from carriers at a range outside the ability for Rebel fighters to intercept or counterattack, and be able to close in on fortified enemy bases and carry enough ordinance to destroy them without needing to run all the way back to their carrier ship to resupply.

The Punisher is simply begging to be an ordnance shotgun. The only other justification for its creation by the Empire (instead of just creating additional swarms of TIE Bombers) would be for it to carry heavier or more specialized ordnance that smaller bombers could not.

A fighter-bomber can launch a comparable amount of firepower as a battleship broadside, but a heavy bomber could drop a nuke capable of damaging the whole of Texas.

Unfortunately, ordnance in this game is more of a plug and play enhancement rather than being dependent on the size of the ship carrying it. It would have been interesting if the KW and TP were able to field munitions that the other TIE and letter wings just couldn't handle?

It would be a huge stretch, but perhaps if a future huge ship is released with a 'Huge ship only' ordnance upgrade, it could also come with a title that would allow the Punisher to carry it as well?

The Punisher is bigger than a Bomber but there's nothing to indicate that it can carry any more massive ordnance than the standard TIE/sa. Each ordnance pod is identical to the original Bomber port pod. But this has been said before. It's all part of. Modular system designed by Seinar when they devised the TIEs. If you wanted a Super Bomber with 4 times the munitions then add more pods! Want a TIE Fighter with more guns? Add some guns on the wings! Want even more guns, add another wing!

Understandable, but ingame its loadout is practically the same as the TIE Bomber's. Even if you added a title granting an extra couple of EM tokens for each warhead type, you'd still run into the issue of not being able to expend them all before the ship is destroyed.

The Punisher is simply begging to be an ordnance shotgun. The only other justification for its creation by the Empire (instead of just creating additional swarms of TIE Bombers) would be for it to carry heavier or more specialized ordnance that smaller bombers could not.

A fighter-bomber can launch a comparable amount of firepower as a battleship broadside, but a heavy bomber could drop a nuke capable of damaging the whole of Texas.

Unfortunately, ordnance in this game is more of a plug and play enhancement rather than being dependent on the size of the ship carrying it. It would have been interesting if the KW and TP were able to field munitions that the other TIE and letter wings just couldn't handle?

It would be a huge stretch, but perhaps if a future huge ship is released with a 'Huge ship only' ordnance upgrade, it could also come with a title that would allow the Punisher to carry it as well?

The Punisher is bigger than a Bomber but there's nothing to indicate that it can carry any more massive ordnance than the standard TIE/sa. Each ordnance pod is identical to the original Bomber port pod. But this has been said before. It's all part of. Modular system designed by Seinar when they devised the TIEs. If you wanted a Super Bomber with 4 times the munitions then add more pods! Want a TIE Fighter with more guns? Add some guns on the wings! Want even more guns, add another wing!

Understandable, but ingame its loadout is practically the same as the TIE Bomber's. Even if you added a title granting an extra couple of EM tokens for each warhead type, you'd still run into the issue of not being able to expend them all before the ship is destroyed.

That's why it needs a title to unload all its secondary weapons at once. This thing needs to PUNISH its targets. At he very least this is the ship that needs to drop two bombs in the same turn.

Well, it's a Doctrine thing. Theoretically, it could have completely replaced the TIE/sa (aka, the Bomber, sa is "Surface Assault"), but the idea was that Rebels hole up in rough to access locales like Yavin IV, and then utilize their fighters armed with anti-capital ship munitions (because a huge chunk of the Rebel's array of fighters have torpedo tubes) to destroy carrier vessels like even the Death Star. An /IT instead is deployed much farther out from a potential target and well outside sensor and normal operational range for the Rebel fighters. Punishers then roll up and dump ordinance into the target without needing to go home to resupply and if they all explode you can just launch more. The Assault Gunboat was much more of that hit-and-run mentality, and the various high-end prototype TIEs are multirole platforms, designed for a lot of utility (like being deployed already around the carrier when it jumps to hyperspace rather than having to launch after). Of course, this is a lot of later extrapolation (probably even mostly from FFG) for what was a upgrade for an RTS game full of lazy "add more greebles" sprites.

In the game, obviously, there's not a great way to model having a longer operational range (other than maybe the fact it does have boost, which gives it repositioning and means it can move farther and faster than a ship of the same speed), and it's expanded carrying capacity is handled in that the pack comes with Extra Ordinance. The pack description seems to indicate you should be using the System Slot for tricks. It may be a ship which simply needs more combinations of cards to come out to really shine. I haven't played with one, so I can't be sure.

I like someone's suggestion of giving it the Reinforce action (Ups has already set the precedent of a non-Epic ship with a previously Epic-exclusive action).

Something like a Title that once a turn, after performing a TL action, assign a Reinforce token to your ship. Then, add some sort of clause preventing having (or spending) any Focus tokens that turn, to keep it balanced (if necessary).

- - - - -

I also like both the ideas of built-in EM and dropping more than one bomb at once...

...perhaps something like a System Upgrade that when deploying a bomb from your rear guides, you may (or must?) deploy one bomb template with the 1[left bank] and one bomb template of the same type with the 1[right bank], before flipping the bomb card face down.

i.e. you still only spend a single upgrade - or EM token - but get double the bang. In this way, it is both a a unique ability and an attractive buff (and a nod to its dual chutes)... but, it only grants that extra capacity for Bombs.

(perhaps there would need to be a point limit of the bomb equipped?!?)

- - - - -

If the above Title was free and the System cost X(?) you could see it filling a position in the way Miranda does with her "nuclear" homing missiles, but with a different flavour.

Bank or Turn bombs would be gross. We need a ship which does that.

It's too bad that despite the fact it has 3 bomb chutes (which again I think is mentioned in the expansion pack's description) it only has two bomb slots by default - or I'd say even better let it drop 3 bombs at once with Bank-Straight-Bank. Turn any bomb into Cluster Mines.

Emon Azzameen does that for the most part (though obviously not all at once). I think 3 bombs would be a bit much as 3 Proton bombs would pretty well insta-kill a good chunk of the non-large ships in the game. Any carpet bombing Punisher paired with an Ion Cannon TIE/D would be poised to evaporate anything annoying enough or at least leave anything with 4+ hull hanging together with small bits of string after the barrage.

system mod

Tie punisher only

-2 pts

You may treat ' ATTACK (TARGET LOCK): ' header as ' ATTACK: '.

Once per turn, If a game effect instructs you to spend a target lock, you may ignore it.

Once per turn, after an attack, you may make another attack with a secondary weapon or you may perform a bomb Upgrade card action as a free action.

Keep the generic punisher more expensive the tie bombers and aces roughly equal to their PS counter parts (deathrain to jonus and redline to tomax) which is offset by having no EPT while giving the punisher more flexibility during combat as well as gives the punisher a much more agressive style of fighting rather than the bomber. The punisher will like using boost and getting in close about to fire at 1 target with a secondary weapon without a TL or if it does decide to TL can fire two secondary weapons a turn and there is something for deathfire and bomb style punishers. Bombers on the other hand like to keep to range and use LRS, punishers get in close with chips.

Would this fix the punisher without making the Tie bomber obsolete or replacing the tie bomber's use as a cheap ordance?

I like that idea. A few comments:

I dont think negative point costs are appropiate, the effect is incredibly strong.

Shooting the same target with 2 cluster missiles are potentially 12 damage in one turn. I`d suggest that you may only shoot another target than the first one.

And dropping a proton bomb without the enemy being able to react to it might be pretty overpowered.

What I don't like is that is doesnt use the things only the punisher can do, the boost and the systems slot. Your solution probably is functional, but not elegant.

The punisher is a bit overcost, all the system slot does is give them a "free" extra munitions. Would 0 pts be better?

Shooting the same target with 2 clusters for potential 12 damage is pretty nice but that is a lot of if's attached to it such as rolling all hits/crits and the target has either 0 agi or no tokens/poor evade dice. You also still will need to get a TL on the target as well, if you use LRS you won't have chips for the better damage and you couldn't spent the TL on the target if you wanna get your 2nd shot off so there won't be any re-rolls either. 12 damage is highly HIGHLY unlikely. Quickdraw can fire 20 dice and no one is crying op.

A proton bomb isn't an action and even if it was those types of bombs detonate at the end of the activation phase which wouldn't be til next turn.

Also it is a system upgrade and lets the punisher be able to boost instead of needing to take a TL(The first line) but can only fire once without the TL(The 2nd line) or twice with a TL (the 3rd line since you can only ignore the discard TL ability only once). Treating the ' ATTACK (TARGET LOCK): ' header as ' ATTACK: still doesn't get rid of the spend the TL cost of the card

Emon Azzameen does that for the most part (though obviously not all at once). I think 3 bombs would be a bit much as 3 Proton bombs would pretty well insta-kill a good chunk of the non-large ships in the game. Any carpet bombing Punisher paired with an Ion Cannon TIE/D would be poised to evaporate anything annoying enough or at least leave anything with 4+ hull hanging together with small bits of string after the barrage.

Well, it's impractical anyway, the Punisher only holds 2. But I think the fact that the punisher would basically just get one load, and once spent this trick cannot be done again is a moderate balancing act. You have to pay for all the bomb upgrades, you have to get enemy placed just right (and because upgrades are open information, they all know you're gonna try and pull it off). When it works it's amazing, but even running with TIE/D Ion there's only so much you can do. But again, moot.

The ability to dump multiple ordinance at once would be interesting to add to the Punisher, or in general. That or like, sidewinder bombs you deploy basically by barrel rolling. That'd be weird and unique.