Just trying to resurrect the thread

Concering Titans, I find it interesting that there seem to be two approaches -

Approach 1 seems to compare the Titans (in size, if not in weight) more to BattleTech Mechs, mainly the imperial armour books -

Mars Pattern Warhound Titan

14m / 410 tons

(as seen in Imperial Armour Vol. 3, pg. 252)

Reaver - Mars Pattern

22,3m / 738 tons

(as seen in Imperial Armour Vol. 6, pg. 119)

Warlord Battle Titan

33m / (?) tons

(estimate based on scale diagram in the Apocalypse Rulebook, pg. 124)

If we use this approach, the Titans aren't really that scary, but more like two legged AT-AT with beefed up armour and weapons ; )

Also the transport would be (relatively) easy, if a bit depending on the ressources of the Rogue Trader.

Landing Ships that should work would look something like the two below, both which are easily within a size that would fit fine in most Capital Ships Main Hangars -

Star Wars Walker Dropship

BattleTech DropShip

Approach 2 is making everything much bigger -

Warhound

25m

Reaver

40m

Warlord Class. Mars Pattern Mec.III/ IX

50-70m

or even much larger ...

Mark Harrison Warlord 1

Mark Harrison Warlord 2

On this 'bigger equals better' approch, the Titans should really be classified as planetary siege units and for deployment the (already mentioned) 16km Adeptus Mechanicus Transport Ships are the right choice ... and also one Titan Legion would be quite a challenge for everything up to a Dinochrome Bolo MkXXXIII Brigade... ( tech specs ) and quite beyond the ability even for the most resourceful Rogue Trader to handle .... °_°

I would suggest that Titans could be carried, launched, and recovered with a very specific Component - I would not allow them to just be placed into a Cargo Bay of any sort. This component would likely be fairly massive (high Space) and power hungry to account for maintaining the Titan, but it's still within the realm of possibility for a RT.

As to having problems with the AdMech just for possessing Titans, I don't see it. If you can get these guys to give you their starships (like the Lathe-class cruisers) then you already have an even higher order of offering from them than a Titan represents.

HappyDaze said:

One thing for everyone. The Ad Mech transports Titan Legions aboard specialized extremely large transports, not individual Titans. A main cargo hold should be big enough for a Battle Titan or a couple Warhounds and their support crew.

On the other hand, getting a ship may be a bit of a problem....

Overall, I agree that with a very specialized, probably custom build, probably very large component, you could cart around a couple Titans.

On the other hand, I would imagine the Ad Mech would get a little fussy about giving away the mods to be able to control the Titan....

So, I would expect that a proper tech-priest would have to be the Princeps, and you would need a mostly Ad Mech crew, but that really isnt any different than a starship, where most of the high tech features are tech-priest controlled anyway.

Lastly: You really cant properly play a Titan in 40k. You would have to go to one of the epic-scale games to see the real fun

In the Rogue Traders of Note chapter in edge of the abyss there's an interesting bit where one crewman complains about his captain being so insane he tries to buy a titan so he can mount it on the prow of his ship...as an icon of his majesty. Needless to say, he didn't get one.

As RT stands right now titans, and really any vehicle bigger than a APC or tank, are of limited use unless you plan to run a game focused around warfare, or recovery of ancient secrets. Certainly it's within the realm of possibility for the adeptus mechanicus to hire, or force, a captain to aid them in the recovery of a lost machine, and maybe even be force to let one of the crew link with it if things get nasty. All they'd need would be an MIU, some time, and a very difficult willpower test to keep the titan's machine spirit from consuming them. Since Void masters and some others can already link themselves to a ship.....it's not to much of a stretch, and potential princeps are a rare commodity.

However, I think the most plausible mission involving titans would be either the aformentioned recovery of an ark or even just a singular titan lost in the expanse, or an escort of a demi legio to a potential new forge world or major expedition site. In which case you might not even see the gawd machines you're protecting.

Or...they find a wrecked traitor titan and make the mistake of bringing it onboard wherein much hilarity ensues as it infects the ship. Think Dead space meets event horizon...and add a giant demon robot.

Finally, if you really really need giant robots might I suggest the less well known cousin to the titans, Knight suits. One man titan like vehicles given out to vassals of mars and used for many tasks, including herding giant dinosaurs. Heck it's possible a Rogue Trader's dynasty was begun on just such a planet, and he may have a knight waiting for him somewhere, waiting for the day he is called to serve The Omnissiah.

hyaxinth said:

I would put my money on a single Mk XXXIII Bolo taking out the Titan Legion and the transport and support fleet before they reached orbit.

Who needs bolos? Just give me some ewoks and plenty of lumber and shovels. I'll destroy a legion and be feasting on their corpses by nightfall.

Of course, the ad.mech would then likely bring in a ship that can blow planets in two...but at least I get a song and dance routine first.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Considering that a Mk XXXIII is pretty much the tracked equvalent of a Warlord Titan, I doubt it.

A plasma destructor is a good deal bigger plasma cannon than a 200cm Hellbore, Command systems are virtually identical (Prior to a Mk XXX the titan beats it), the shield systems are roughly identical...

Besides, the giant robot wins just because of the Rule of Cool.

What's the acquistion roll on a Titan? +120? I don't want to be a part of whatever munchkin crew running that game. Titans as background material/endeavour objectives? Yes. In fact assisting the Mechanicus in salvaging a Titan sounds like a grand-class endeavour in itself. Titans as property of Rogue Traders? That's something C.S. Goto would write.

Also, I know this is supposed to be Rogue Trader and a very high-powered setting, but Titans are something even the Adeptus Astartes don't regularly see unless it's a Tyranid invasion or a WAAAAGH!. They're called out for when important worlds like Armageddon are at stake, not for backwater frontier worlds. Your mileage may vary, but anything more than a single Warhound being involved out in the Koronus Expanse in the cargo hold of a Rogue Trader strikes me as stupid.

Fortinbras said:

A Titan is typically a lesser asset than a starship, and even the greatest of Titans is less than the expense of a Frigate. I think that overestimating the value of Titans is a sign of failing to realize how much a flotilla of starships is really worth.

HappyDaze said:

How do you figure? I won't go so far as to say that starships are a dime a dozen in the Imperium, but from my understanding every Titan lost is a tragedy and other than Warhounds they're irreplaceable, while frigates go missing like clockwork in the Expanse.

As a reference: There are 16 Titans in a legion, how many frigates are there in Battlefleet Calixis/Koronus?

I'm not arguing that Titans are not a difficult Acquisition. They are indeed quite rare, but that doesn't mean that a RT that really wanted to have some couldn't make it happen. They would be extremely impractical - I can't really see anything that they could accomplish that more conventional ground forces backed with an air/space wing and orbital fire support from a starship couldn't handle (corner cases of worlds with atmospheres that prevent air support and accurate orbital fire support aside), so owning Titans would hardly break the game.

I would actually say that many more Titans could be built, but thankfully it's only eccentric Tech-Priests that waste valuable resources on such a niche product. The smart ones put those construction resources into starships!

On the other hand, it's a lot easier to build something large that you know will never be subject to high accelleration gravity, or gravity+acceleration coming from two different angles. It's also easier to build something so huge you can just have 20k+ people man it instead of have it automated. That's the hidden costs in Titan construction. Titan weapons are also more expensive in a per-pound-of-damage sense for the same reasons. They just can't afford a quarter-kilometre barrel to send a projectile down most of the time.

There are many reasons a titan would be more effective than a starship in a particular instance, especially in situations where space superiority isn't guaranteed or when you are unwilling to fire at the planet. Actually, I think titans make the most sense in defensive deployments to withstand seiges, not to enact them.

Of course I also don't believe giving PCs a titan is either overpowered or underpowered. It, like every other trinket you give players (even the lowliest las-pistol) is just a plot device. This one sounds like there's lots of places it could be fun to play with. You could set up scenarios that ask your players "is it worth sacrificing this?" or "how much would you give up to protect this?" or "is this a crutch?"

TItan legions range in sizes from a dozen or so reavers and warlords, to forces consisting of several dozen battlegroups. Though obviously they usually don't deploy as a full force unless they're a small and specialized unit such as the legion composed entirely of imperator titans.

Also it is possible to get small detachments deployed to campaigns that are not exactly high on the list of priorities if one can use the right carrot to entice them. However, once the gawd machines face damage deemed excessive by the Ad.mech they'll pull out no matter what their allies might need. See the Taros campaign for an example of just such an event.

Titans are not rarely used because they're hard to build (though many forge worlds can't build any but the Knight classes at best). They're rarely used because each one is an icon of the omnissiah made manifest and soley serve at the whims of the Fabricator of their home forge world. That's the real reason you're unlikely to see a rogue trader having one he can claim as 'his'.

But again, there are reasonable scenarios where a crew might be blessed enough by the omnissiah to aid in transport or recovery of these icons of mechanical purity.

On the flip side, were I to allow a crew acess to super heavy walkers I'd permit them to acquire these.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicles_of_the_Imperium#Knights

Maybe an elite advance and an endeavour would be needed, plus I'd probably require the character to be of noble lineage in some way, but these things are almost practical for the needs of a Rogue Trader crew.

George Labour said:

A SINGLE WARHOUND! That's all it took! Games Workshop treats the Tau with freaking kid gloves.

Also my understanding was that a battlegroup of Titans is smaller than an actual Titan Legion, which maxes out at 16 but is rarely actually 16 because of their constant likelihood to be shot.

A battlegroup is usually three titans of the same class, Warhounds mostly deploy in packs of two. Then they also deploy in maniples which, optimally, starts with one battlegroup and a couple packs. From there you get a demi-legio which consistes of multiple battlegroups, and or heavier titans operating independently of the rest of the legion.

I've never really seen hard numbers on just how many titans some of the oldest legions have. But given the nature of warp travel and the fact that a legion can often fight in multiple fronts galaxy wide some of them must number in the hundreds. Also for some reason most of those will be warlords, followed by warhounds.

However keep in mind that the number of war worthy titans is not the same as titans the legion has in its inventory. Battle damage can take anywhere from hours to centuries to repair depending on resources, technical know how, status of paperwork, and acess to a proper repair silo (combination temple and titan repair bay).

There's also the fact that a forge world will always keep a portion of the legion on world for self defense, and most people in the imperium really don't know about, nor care, for the minutiae. To them six titans can be a legion.

Of course I'm just going off everything i can remember from dozens of sources from nearly two decades of nerdom, so bear with me if I got one or two facts wrong.

As for the Taros campaign they didn't just pull out because they lost one warhound. They pulled out because their allies had no counter to the Tau's sudden use of an anti titan unit, so it was more logical to leave and reassign their avatars of war to a more efficient purpose. Which is a recurring theme with titans, once they lose the support of 'lesser' units they often find themselves in trouble due to the use of traps, and certain specialized weapons.