Is it a maneuver or an action to pick up a weapon after a character has been disarmed? If a character spends 3 advantage in melee to disarm his opponent, can his opponent just spend a maneuver to pick it back up and then still take an attack action the next turn? If so, wouldn't it be better to just spend the advantage on a crit, since most of the melee weapons need 3 advantage or less?

Thanks in advance!

Is it a maneuver or an action to pick up a weapon after a character has been disarmed? If a character spends 3 advantage in melee to disarm his opponent, can his opponent just spend a maneuver to pick it back up and then still take an attack action the next turn? If so, wouldn't it be better to just spend the advantage on a crit, since most of the melee weapons need 3 advantage or less?

Thanks in advance!

Nothing is stopping you spending a maneuver yourself AFTER you disarmed your opponent to pick it up yourself. Though technical picking up a weapon might be often two maneuvers. One to move into range and a second to actually pick it up. Personally I would just kick it away to medium range or into a chasm

It's a Maneuver to change locations within a range band, and a Maneuver to interact with environment or ready a weapon. So unless it falls in your pocket likely 2 Maneuvers.

It's a Maneuver to change locations within a range band, and a Maneuver to interact with environment or ready a weapon. So unless it falls in your pocket likely 2 Maneuvers.

I agree, in movies or television when someone gets disarmed, their weapon usually flies across the room and lands somewhere, where later both opponends can try to reach for it . It doesn't just drop onto their feet for them to simply pick it up again. So even if the weapon lands at close range from the disarmed charakter, they still need one maneuver to move to close and a second to pick it up.

Or they carry a backup and only need one maneuver to ready that.

I also would allow additinal advantage to have the weapon actually flying across the room: 3 advantages to disarm, additinal one for it to land at medium range. Or an additional triumph for the weapon to fall down one of those bottomless pits, they seem to build everywhere .

May your backup-weapon be always fully loaded

Fred

It's a Maneuver to change locations within a range band, and a Maneuver to interact with environment or ready a weapon. So unless it falls in your pocket likely 2 Maneuvers.

If you disarm someone with a melee attack I would say one maneuver is enough to grab the weapon, unless you decide to narrate that it falls down within short to both of you. In that case the enemy needs three maneuvers to pick it up, one to disengage, one to move to the weapon and the third to pick it up.

Well, or two if he has the Magnetic Weapon Tether attachment

It's a Maneuver to change locations within a range band, and a Maneuver to interact with environment or ready a weapon. So unless it falls in your pocket likely 2 Maneuvers.

If you disarm someone with a melee attack I would say one maneuver is enough to grab the weapon, unless you decide to narrate that it falls down within short to both of you. In that case the enemy needs three maneuvers to pick it up, one to disengage, one to move to the weapon and the third to pick it up.

Well, or two if he has the Magnetic Weapon Tether attachment

Huh, you are right, they would need to disengage. Hmm. Still, just dropping the weapon onto their feet seems weird. Could make for a funny scene from time to time, but all the time? Not so much. On the other hand, costing your opponent three maneuvers for three advantages is too much. They woulnd't even be able to do that in one turn. Will have to rethink this.

Edit: I thought about it and would stick with the 2 maneuvers: One maneuver to disengage from your opponent (still at short range from him though) and get to your weapon which was within short range, too. I don't think this needs two maneuvers, unless your weapon landed at medium range. Then one maneuver to pick it up (not sure if Quick Draw could be used here).

It's 2 even at your feet. 1 to disengage and one to interact with the environment.

Quick Draw is a GMs call, but I'd say no. Bending over to pick something up while someone is trying to whip your @$$ isn't "easily accessible" imo.

It's 2 even at your feet. 1 to disengage and one to interact with the environment.

Quick Draw is a GMs call, but I'd say no. Bending over to pick something up while someone is trying to whip your @$$ isn't "easily accessible" imo.

I would allow to fall flat to pick it up and give the prone bonus to the next melee attack in that case. ;-)

Besides, 3 maneuvers sound exactly right, because it means one round at least without weapon and 3 advantage are a lot. With many weapons you get three crits for the price of it. Furthermore, 3 maneuvers encourage to go into a brawl instead of keep chasing your weapon and lastly … if your opponent can constantly disarm you than he could constantly crit you as well. He is basically toying with you.

Lastly, constant disarms are a star wars lightsaber combat trope.

Just count in this fight how often sabers are lost or change hands:

It's 2 even at your feet. 1 to disengage and one to interact with the environment.

Quick Draw is a GMs call, but I'd say no. Bending over to pick something up while someone is trying to whip your @$$ isn't "easily accessible" imo.

I would allow to fall flat to pick it up and give the prone bonus to the next melee attack in that case. ;-)

Besides, 3 maneuvers sound exactly right, because it means one round at least without weapon and 3 advantage are a lot. With many weapons you get three crits for the price of it. Furthermore, 3 maneuvers encourage to go into a brawl instead of keep chasing your weapon and lastly … if your opponent can constantly disarm you than he could constantly crit you as well. He is basically toying with you.

Lastly, constant disarms are a star wars lightsaber combat trope.

Well, you make some good points, but I'm not quite convinced (yet).

First, it wouldn’t be 3 crits, but one crit at +20, but that's still a valid point for those crit-1-weapons.

But if you think of it in terms of strain, you could either heal* 3 Strain or force your opponent to take 2 maneuvers, which would be the equivalent of 4 Strain, so it seems pretty fair to me. If you require 3 maneuvers, that would be an equivalent of 6 Strain, which seems too powerful.

And one more thing you might want to consider: In the case of melee combat (which the original question was about, I think) they actually would need to use another maneuver to re-engage before they can attack. This would mean 4 maneuvers total punishment following your point or 3 following mine (which I just said were too much . I'm disarming my own arguments here ).

Therefore, you are right, the melee fighter cannot attack the next round. But I think he/she/it should be able to get their weapon back otherwise they would be defenseless (story-wise) and the fight would be over. Which, again, too powerful for 3 advantages.

The ranged weapons have an advantage here, since they can be fired next turn at the cost of 2 Strain for the second maneuver. But they were certainly forced out of any cover they might have had, when they were running after their blaster.

May the "resist-disarm"-talent be with you

Fred

*Edit: I wrote that you could deal 3 Strain for 3 Advantage, which is wrong. Changed deal to heal to correct this mistake. Also, in a later post I'll change my mind and say it's only 1 maneuver to regain your weapon...

Skilled force users just spend one maneuver for move ;-)

And indeed, you proc 3 crits and get a crit with additional 20, which is kind of a big deal for crit-builds as every proc counts when you try to reach that magical 151. Just like every point of vicious and every rank of lethal blows counts.

One maneuver each round is free, making those 3 maneuvers just 2 strain and loss of one armed attack, though that action can be spend otherwise, from scathing tirade over force powers to leadership checks. There are plenty of actions which can be done. Or you just hit your opponent in the face, knock him on his ass and jump after your weapon afterwards. Plenty of options with 3 maneuver costs.

As init slots are not fixed for each round taking a later slot in the next round can even force your opponent to spend an maneuver to engage you or pass on his own melee attack.

edit: Oh and speaking of every rank and point counts. Regenerating 3 strain can be huge for characters with parry or reflect. 3 Strain can easily reduce damage by 3 to 30+ depending on the ranks and the use of supreme parry.

if your opponent can constantly disarm you than he could constantly crit you as well. He is basically toying with you.

Yeah, one reason I don't like disarm. It probably would have been better as an entry on the crit chart.

Should you really be decreeing that a character's weapon falls at short range when they are disarmed? The Makashi Duelist tree has the Sun Djem talent which specifically states that it makes a character's weapon fall to short range if the attacking character spends Triumph or two Advantages. Seems like they wouldn't make a talent that just replicated an option that all characters have.

Yeah, I'm in the "you're engaged with the disarmed weapon" camp, with the allowance that additional advantage could totally send it further from the target. I always thought Sun Djem was underpowered ("it only lowers the disarm cost by 1 adv?!") but if it specifies Short range then it's actually pretty good.

Should you really be decreeing that a character's weapon falls at short range when they are disarmed? The Makashi Duelist tree has the Sun Djem talent which specifically states that it makes a character's weapon fall to short range if the attacking character spends Triumph or two Advantages. Seems like they wouldn't make a talent that just replicated an option that all characters have.

Good catch, I forgot about that. The talent is also in Niman Disciple and Shii-Cho Knight. It's a 20-25 XP talent, so it really should be better than just lowering the disarm requirement by one advantage. Also, I just re-read the text in the "spending advantages in combat"-table and it says "Force the target to drop a melee or ranged weapon he is wielding." And drop sounds like right in front of their feet to me.

Therefore, I hereby make use of my self-proclaimed right to change my mind whenever I want to and will from now on interpret RAW like this:

The normal "disarm" with 3 advantages, causes the target to simply drop their weapon, i.e. they are still engaged with their weapon and can pick it up with one (1) maneuver.

This is also true if they are engaged in melee or brawl, since I don't see why they would have to disengage from the enemy to pick up an item that is also engaged with both of them.

Additional advantages or triumph might be used to increase the distance to the weapon, if the GM agrees.

This makes the disarm-option kind of weak, since it basically steals the opponent one maneuver (or one blue die for aiming). Unless the attacking party is engaged with the opponent and still has a maneuver left to pick the weapon up themselves. Or they have an ally with the move power who can now get the blaster without facing an opposed check. So there might still be enough uses for disarming someone.

Well, good discussion, thanks everyone!

May the force be with you

Fred

One maneuver each round is free, making those 3 maneuvers just 2 strain and loss of one armed attack, though that action can be spend otherwise, from scathing tirade over force powers to leadership checks. There are plenty of actions which can be done. Or you just hit your opponent in the face, knock him on his ass and jump after your weapon afterwards. Plenty of options with 3 maneuver costs.

Actually, unless you’ve got one of those rare talents that allow three maneuvers per round, the maximum you can get by either spending Strain or by dropping an Action is a total of Two Maneuvers per round.

So, if the cost is Three Maneuvers, what you’ve guaranteed is that the person in question can’t Disengage, Move to their Weapon, and Pick up their Weapon, all in the same round.

Even for the races that get a free extra Maneuver, that only means that they don’t have to spend Strain to get that Second Maneuver per round — they don’t get a Third Maneuver.

Should you really be decreeing that a character's weapon falls at short range when they are disarmed? The Makashi Duelist tree has the Sun Djem talent which specifically states that it makes a character's weapon fall to short range if the attacking character spends Triumph or two Advantages. Seems like they wouldn't make a talent that just replicated an option that all characters have.

E-CRB p 207 offers for example knockdown for 3 threats, the talent gives you the same for 2 advantages iirc and the weapon quality too. So this would be not without similar examples.Besides, the disarm options for everyone deal no damage (aim) or at least don't give you the option to decide where the weapon drops, which makes tons of difference. No throwing the weapon to an ally in that case and making it basically a catch mid air for the next guy in line for one maneuver. This alone would be worth the 20 points imho.

Lastly I still agree that for 3 advantages you just drop the thing, imho there is nothing wrong with having the option to spend MORE advantages for extra options when disarming. I mentioned short range, medium and chasm. Sorry if someone thought I implied all those options for the same costs, which I definitely did not want to imply, but imo it should be no issue to increase the range you throw the weapon away based on more advantages.

One maneuver each round is free, making those 3 maneuvers just 2 strain and loss of one armed attack, though that action can be spend otherwise, from scathing tirade over force powers to leadership checks. There are plenty of actions which can be done. Or you just hit your opponent in the face, knock him on his ass and jump after your weapon afterwards. Plenty of options with 3 maneuver costs.

Actually, unless you’ve got one of those rare talents that allow three maneuvers per round, the maximum you can get by either spending Strain or by dropping an Action is a total of Two Maneuvers per round.

So, if the cost is Three Maneuvers, what you’ve guaranteed is that the person in question can’t Disengage, Move to their Weapon, and Pick up their Weapon, all in the same round.

Even for the races that get a free extra Maneuver, that only means that they don’t have to spend Strain to get that Second Maneuver per round — they don’t get a Third Maneuver.

You are correct, but that is what I said. 3 maneuvers, 2 strain and loss of one armed attack, because you need two rounds. You can do plenty of other things with that action. I even gave examples for actions as filler like Scathing tirade, etc

You are correct, but that is what I said. 3 maneuvers, 2 strain and loss of one armed attack, because you need two rounds. You can do plenty of other things with that action. I even gave examples for actions as filler like Scathing tirade, etc

Sorry, my bad. I thought you were talking about giving up the Action to get all three of those Maneuvers in the same round.

Nevermind….

You are correct, but that is what I said. 3 maneuvers, 2 strain and loss of one armed attack, because you need two rounds. You can do plenty of other things with that action. I even gave examples for actions as filler like Scathing tirade, etc

If the weapon lands at short range during an engaged fight, for a melee weapon it would be 4 maneuvers before they can attack again, unless the enemy re-engaged for them.

E-CRB p 207 offers for example knockdown for 3 threats, the talent gives you the same for 2 advantages iirc and the weapon quality too. So this would be not without similar examples.Besides, the disarm options for everyone deal no damage (aim) or at least don't give you the option to decide where the weapon drops, which makes tons of difference. No throwing the weapon to an ally in that case and making it basically a catch mid air for the next guy in line for one maneuver. This alone would be worth the 20 points imho.

Lastly I still agree that for 3 advantages you just drop the thing, imho there is nothing wrong with having the option to spend MORE advantages for extra options when disarming. I mentioned short range, medium and chasm. Sorry if someone thought I implied all those options for the same costs, which I definitely did not want to imply, but imo it should be no issue to increase the range you throw the weapon away based on more advantages.

The Knockdown talent allows you to knock a target prone for a TRIUMPH when in melee, while the normal "falls prone"-option only happens for 3 Threat or 1 Despair on the target's side.

The Knockdown talent is one more reason, why the "make your opponent drop their weapon"-option for 3 Advantage or 1 Triumph should allow this opponent to just pick their weapon up again in one maneuver.

Otherwise you'd never use the Knockdown-talent, but would always choose the normal disarm which doesn't even need a talent, since the opponent can just get up from prone in one maneuver.

In short:

• The Knockdown talent (1 Triumph, 10-15XP) costs your opponent 1 maneuver to overcome (plus they are prone in the meantime)
• The "make your opponent drop their weapon"-option (3 Advantage or 1 Triumph) costs your opponent 1 maneuver to overcome (plus they don't have their weapon in the meantime)
• The Sum Djem Disarm talent (2 Advantages or 1 Triumph, 20-25XP) costs your opponent 3 maneuvers to regain their weapon and 3-4 to completely overcome, depending on whether they have to re-engage.

This seems pretty balanced to me, with the Knockdown talent slightly on the weaker side, when it is not combined with sth else.

This is all assuming no extra Advantage or Triumph for an increased effect. Also, Move might change things. Also, if the attacking character or one of his allies still has a maneuver to pick up your disarmed weapon before you, you are pretty much screwed.

Remark: I see a good synergy between the Knockdown talent and the Sum Djem, if you are going for a non-lethal lightsaber build. Leaves your enemies lying in front of you with their weapon out of reach. Lightsaber does not count as melee attack, does it?

I don't understand your last paragraph were you say "Lastly I still agree that for 3 advantages you just drop the thing". If they just "drop the thing" then it should land right in front of them at engaged range ready to be picked up in one (1) maneuver. Do we agree on that now or not?

I, too, agree on the idea, that for any extra Advantage or Triumph you can increase the distance at which the weapon lands.

Remember to always fully recharge your lightsabre batteries,

Fred

Aye, a lightsaber check isn't a melee attack thus wouldn't count toward knockdown. I am also fairly certain that theres no current way of putting knockdown on a lightsaber, unless endless vigal adds new upgrade.

F-CRB p.211 Box on the Top-Left: "Melee attack is an attack … most likely be made using Melee, Brawl, or Lightsaber skill." Lightsaber attacks are usually melee attacks, they are just not attacks using the melee skill. So if there is no FAQ on that, it should work with most lightsaber attacks, except for a few of the special ones which give make them ranged attacks.

@GM Fred Your summery sounds about right and seems to be what RAW and RAI state as well.

One thing to add: Knockdown is great to follow up by a melee attacks for extra boost dice. And you should be able to proc it from a secondary weapon when dual-wielding with a lightsaber together too. It should be downright devastating when you combine it with Sum Djem and knock them down in round two again forcing them to crawl away from you to grab their weapon.

F-CRB p.211 Box on the Top-Left: "Melee attack is an attack … most likely be made using Melee, Brawl, or Lightsaber skill." Lightsaber attacks are usually melee attacks, they are just not attacks using the melee skill. So if there is no FAQ on that, it should work with most lightsaber attacks, except for a few of the special ones which give make them ranged attacks.

@GM Fred Your summery sounds about right and seems to be what RAW and RAI state as well.

One thing to add: Knockdown is great to follow up by a melee attacks for extra boost dice. And you should be able to proc it from a secondary weapon when dual-wielding with a lightsaber together too. It should be downright devastating when you combine it with Sum Djem and knock them down in round two again forcing them to crawl away from you to grab their weapon.

Thanks for clearing that up. In that case:

I see a good synergy between the Knockdown talent and the Sum Djem, if you are going for a non-lethal lightsaber build. Leaves your enemies lying in front of you with their weapon out of reach. Just needs two Advantages, a Triumph and ... some XP.

I didn't read every post but disarming can be great if you have more than one initiative slots before the ennemy can react.

Disarming a guy wielding a lightsaber ir melee weapon can prevent him from using reflect, parry or even his defense value untill he recovers his weapon, so if another friend can takes his turn before that can be a real mess.

So 3 advantages is not so much if you think about it