You're nostalgic for something that never existed. Soontir Fel and PtL have been in the game since wave 2. If you looked back in this forum to 3 years ago, I would not be surprised to find similar hand wringing about how we can't possibly handle 8 whole ships in the game.

I played through the BBBBZ meta, Fat Han/Phantom meta and the Dual IG/Soontir-Thruster meta and I do feel like those metas were way less complicated than the Palp/combo-meta we see now. I'm actually really happy that FFG is finally breaking down phases into flow charts in order to qualify each upgrade they release, but even still, the upgrades they're releasing are focused more on card based interactions rather than dogfighting, which I think started with C-3PO.

That led to a mess of things such as Autothrusters to combat the effectiveness and resiliancy of PWT, however, they decided to print Palp on top of that and make him non-epic which was like a one-step-forward-two-steps-back move on FFG's part by padding the game with invulnerabilities that safe-guards poor flying rather than rewarding fly-better situations.

What kind of banlist would you draft up for a "Bare Bones" format, then?

I'd actually do the reverse and come up with a list of allowed cards, because it would be much shorter.

I'd allow all generic astromechs, generic salvaged astros, bombs, cannons, turrets, missiles and torpedos. I'd allow all zero point titles, and the Heavy Scyk.

I think I'd allow generic crew, but maybe not. But no unique crew. I might allow any 0-1 point Elite talents, but again maybe not.

I think that would get the same feel you're looking for, but without making a number of ships worthless to take.

I'll look into it, that sounds way better than a banlist.

I'll also make a post to the SoCal community to see which they would prefer. I just didn't want to ban certain cards as a response to the meta.

I just didn't want to ban certain cards as a response to the meta.

I get that, you don't want to just ban Palp but rather go back to the days in which Plastic > Cardboard.

What kind of banlist would you draft up for a "Bare Bones" format, then?

I'd actually do the reverse and come up with a list of allowed cards, because it would be much shorter.

I'd allow all generic astromechs, generic salvaged astros, bombs, cannons, turrets, missiles and torpedos. I'd allow all zero point titles, and the Heavy Scyk.

I think I'd allow generic crew, but maybe not. But no unique crew. I might allow any 0-1 point Elite talents, but again maybe not.

I think that would get the same feel you're looking for, but without making a number of ships worthless to take.

This sound interesting. Would you limit pilots to generic or have a PS limit?

Question? You have zero point titles and the Heavy Scyk? What about only being able to use non-unique/generic titles. Then you wouldn't need the exception for the Heavy Scyk. It also allows for both TIE Defender titles and the TIE Advanced Prototype.

@spikespiegel: Sounds like you just need to think on exactly what you want to get out of the game. FIrst off, who are you playing with that would agree to this format and what type of players are they, or is this just internet theory? Second, what do you personally want to get out of the game? Sounds like you like the dogfighting aspect, but not so much the list building aspect of the game (which i think the limits on uniques would go further to satisfy). Which is why I recommend you draft up some casual scenarios, with pre-built squads or allowing for simple pre-built choices like what generic droid to use or what torpedo to load your xwing with.

If you go the other way, a ban on all upgrades, of course you cannot avoid one ship coming out on top and some others being absolutely worthless (hwk). Sure you could make a ban-list that might mitigate some of that. But what we are really talking about here is a *meta* and it's guaranteed that with whatever crowd you are playing with (unless you are an extremely charismatic personality/celebrity and convince many gamers to play your format and not complain) there won't be enough games going on to really form a meta in any case. Furthermore, you are unlikely to attract any xwing players who are focused on getting practice for an event or tournament, which lets be honest, are always going on, and the pressure is great to get as much practice as possible or experimentation with your lists.

At least I know that in my area, for many players even mentioning developing another format is like, you are shunned. There is a medium level of interest for scenarios, especially including epic ships, and campaigns like HoTAC.

Oddly enough, in the world of WH40K there is plenty of interest for alternative formats... there are highlander tournaments, i've run combat patrol tournaments, etc. I guess that particular game is just orders of magnitude more jazzed up than xwing is right now so the players are a little more desperate for a change in play experience.

I wonder how many of the responders to the OP, that pooh pooh the idea, are competitive players? I get the feeling that when something is mentioned that isn't "top tier" or hyper-competitive the competitive players dismiss it out of hand.

Probably true, but don't let this start being a casual vs tournament player thread. Tournament style is great for some people, especially those that are new to the game. I just got burnt out on it after a few years of it. Not everyone is in that space.

I didn't mean to kick over that anthill but the question was asked in earnest. The competitive players have a lot they can share with the casual and neophyte players but their answers usually come in the form of pronouncements with little or no explanation. Probably because they've been asked those questions for the umpteenth time.

This forum and these threads could be the first exposure a soon to be player has to the game and it does us, as a community, no good if that first encounter is also their last. Imagine a noob asking PGS a question about a PWT! Not a pretty sight.

This was just an observation.

This sound interesting. Would you limit pilots to generic or have a PS limit?

No because I think that while someone like Jake Farrell would still be effective he wouldn't be nearly as much so without PtL, and someone like Soontir would really be waste of points. Someone like Whisper would be interesting because even with VI, without Advanced Cloaking Device... Can't get the free cloaking action. So I don't think there's any need to put a PS limit in, a number of aces are going to be too expensive if they can't get things like PtL or Autothrusters.

Question? You have zero point titles and the Heavy Scyk? What about only being able to use non-unique/generic titles.

that's an interesting idea, I didn't look all that closely at the titles so that might be the better option.

So looking at it now, that allows things like Black One and IG-2000 which may go against the whole idea of Plastic > Cardboard. It would also stop people from using titles like Ghost/Phantom or Mist Hunter.

This sound interesting. Would you limit pilots to generic or have a PS limit?

No because I think that while someone like Jake Farrell would still be effective he wouldn't be nearly as much so without PtL, and someone like Soontir would really be waste of points. Someone like Whisper would be interesting because even with VI, without Advanced Cloaking Device... Can't get the free cloaking action. So I don't think there's any need to put a PS limit in, a number of aces are going to be too expensive if they can't get things like PtL or Autothrusters.

Question? You have zero point titles and the Heavy Scyk? What about only being able to use non-unique/generic titles.

that's an interesting idea, I didn't look all that closely at the titles so that might be the better option.

So looking at it now, that allows things like Black One and IG-2000 which may go against the whole idea of Plastic > Cardboard. It would also stop people from using titles like Ghost/Phantom or Mist Hunter.

If you allowed all pilots as you say. Then allowed all non-unique mods, upgrades, titles, etc. but no Elite Pilot Skills. Then Soontir would get his Auto-Thrusters, but not PTL, and Whisper would be limited to PS 7 even with his recloak ability. I think Whipser might be the worst example. As for Black One it is a unique so wouldn't be allowed. That might leave IG-2000 and Whisper as the outlyers

I would think that allowing titles, mods and upgrades directly help some ships back in the game. The issue is combinations of course. Soontir might still be viable but without PTL he would have to be cautious. But, as you pointed out, without PTL or Autothrusters he would be a waste of points. VI is a one point card but pushes Whisper to the extreme.

When I play with a friend who hasn't ever played before, we set up this format and it works well:

100 points each

Small base ships only with front firing arc

1 large card (Pilot) and 1 small card per ship (ability, mod, but no turrets obviously)

Points under 100 can purchase asteroids (1 each) and initiative

It allows the cannon standards of R2, torpedos, pilot ability, Autothrusters, etc. without loading a ship with hard to use mods. Also, with new players, they tend to forget the mods anyway. Plus, it's a more relaxed 'pint in hand friendly game.' Everyone wins!!

I've asked this question before and it is somewhat similar to what Meade was getting at:

Would there be any interest in the competitive arena for different tiers of play? Like in other venues you could have the same 100/6 tournament format but with different levels or classes. Such as

• Open - This is what we have today. 100pts of your best faction specific list
• Limited - Same as open but within a set amount (maybe 1-2 upgrades per ship). Conversely no limit on upgrades but a limit on PS. I feel either one of these could be manipulated though.
• Stock - Generics only. No unique or limited pilots, crew, upgrades, etc. Secondary weapons, generic mechs, crew etc. would all be OK. (You would likely see a lot of spam or swarm lists here but not your only option)

People could find their comfort zone and still be competitive. With this idea you would end up with an Open World Champion, a Limited World Champion, and a Stock World Champion.

Would this work? Would FFG support it?

I've been a bit discouraged to play X-Wing since it's such a big game now, especially since I've felt that with so many different upgrade cards and abilities happening and triggering in so many different stages of the game make the once simple dogfighting simulator feel more like a game of MtG than anything else.

So I would like to hear your thoughts on a "Bare Bones" X-Wing format where no upgrade cards are allowed to be fielded at all. Not even titles or mods. Just the pilot card and whatever ability that is printed on there. There would still be the standard 100 point limit + obstacles as well.

Some fun things that are possible (and possibly overpowered):

8 TIE Swarm

8 Z-95 Swarm

Biggs Walks the Dogs minus Adv Sensors

Double VCX + Wedge

Quad Jumpmasters

5 Khiraxz

Dual IGs + other ship

Kir Kanos

Quad Phantoms

BBBBZ

Triple Firespray

Quad Lambdas + TIE Fighter

The format relies on removing the brokenness and opportunity cost of upgrade cards (their effects, abilities, points) and allowing players to return to the core of dogfighting with 100 points worth of ships. Even removing titles is important to watering down Defenders, Dengar and the Falcon, even though it kind of hinders the TIE/sf and ARC-170.

I'm on the verge of stepping up and contacting a few local game stores around here to see if they'd be willing to host a Bare Bones X-Wing tournament, but I'd like to hear some feedback!

What do you guys think?

What could go wrong with a format like this?

What kind of list would you fly?

Upgrades are not needed!