I've been a bit discouraged to play X-Wing since it's such a big game now, especially since I've felt that with so many different upgrade cards and abilities happening and triggering in so many different stages of the game make the once simple dogfighting simulator feel more like a game of MtG than anything else.

What?? You think that the game is getting too complex...what??

Yep, I think the same thing actually. This should be a pilots game first and foremost; the new tricks and modifiers should be a marginal defense or attack boost, but not game-changing at all.

Example: I recently watched a game between two obviously very intelligent players; one flying a Rebel Ghost w/support against a Dengar-Party Buss kinda build. There was so many dice modifiers, special personnel modifications, and other action causing and retarding actions, I couldn't follow what the **** was going on at all. I'm not sure any actual primary weapons VS evades or moving into/out of arcs was ever really performed. They could have just played cards and rolled a bunch of dice and not touched the ship dials at all; or even played on-line or over the phone.

Maybe I was just feeling old and cranky....or I'm not able to grasp all the new complexities. Yeah, I'm probably stupid.

I wonder how many of the responders to the OP, that pooh pooh the idea, are competitive players? I get the feeling that when something is mentioned that isn't "top tier" or hyper-competitive the competitive players dismiss it out of hand.

It really is a nice change to fly a relatively simple squad. No 2 x 50 point Bro Bot lists, no Fat Han or Chubby Dash. No 50 point Corran Horn and company. Just a easy, relaxing game where you don't stress your brain trying to remember a dozen upgrade cards and their interactions.

I wonder how many of the responders to the OP, that pooh pooh the idea, are competitive players? I get the feeling that when something is mentioned that isn't "top tier" or hyper-competitive the competitive players dismiss it out of hand.

Probably true, but don't let this start being a casual vs tournament player thread. Tournament style is great for some people, especially those that are new to the game. I just got burnt out on it after a few years of it. Not everyone is in that space.

Sounds like an awful format. Hope you like tie swarms. If you want to mix things up, get more imaginative.

If you feel X-Wing is too complicated, I shudder to think of trying any other game out there.

Sounds like an awful format. Hope you like tie swarms. If you want to mix things up, get more imaginative.

If you feel X-Wing is too complicated, I shudder to think of trying any other game out there.

We'll all agree that both overarching directions of the game are great!

1) Tournament play is exciting and intense; lots of planning, stress and fun!

2) Casual play is exciting, relaxing, competitive; planning, experimenting and fun!

As far as the "hope you like TIE swarms" statement, I have a bit of info to illuminate on that. Now I may again be talking out of ignorance here (I am good at that, haha) but, flying TIE swarms well is probably one of the most intense, practice-requiring and intensely focused X-Wing skills any of us could hope to grasp, or even more remotely, possibly master. Therefore, the format including them against the other types of ships with shielding and greater hull is actually quite competitive overall given the diversity of the collection of players that he has addressed. In addition, ideas like this keep the game fresh and organic. Love it!

It really is a nice change to fly a relatively simple squad.

Speaking as a competitive player I think the idea has merit, but goes too far. I think removing all upgrades does little but remove a number of ships from the game.

ARCs and TIE/sfs are effectively worthless as are Tie Advances. Defenders are borderline. Y-Wings are really bad and HWK's would be so bad you'd almost be better off making a 18 point bid for init.

The other problem is this system really encourages Aces, since they have abilities that function regardless of an upgrade.

But if you allow titles and zero cost upgrades, you'd get nearly the same effect without removing nearly as many ships from the game. HWK's and Y-Wings would still be out, since neither of them work very well without a turret. But at least ARC's and SF's work, and the more broken ships like TA's and A-Wings are better, even if they lose half of what the title allows.

But the bottom line is... If you're playing X-Wing and having fun, you're doing it right.

I think what he's saying is if you go with no upgrades, then you just get the meta of lots of Tie Fighter swarms and/or lots of B-wing swarms. Just joust and blow away the competition with massed firepower. It won't be that interesting. I tend to agree with that idea.

EDIT: If you wanted, you could also just introduce a banned list of pilots/cards to use. If you are trying to shake up the meta, you can just limit what you can play with. Maybe only go with stuff from a certain wave or maybe only ships that were in the original 3 movies (or at least the bounty hunters that were in those movies). Or, you can just ban certain upgrade cards that get used too much, like PTL or VI. That right there makes some ships not so interesting to play. You can also put a PS cap on pilots. No one above PS 6 for instance. That kind of changes the game right there and lets people use all sorts of crazy mid-level pilots that normally don't see the light of day.

Just joust and blow away the competition with massed firepower. It won't be that interesting. I tend to agree with that idea.

Yeah that's what I see as the issue here as well.

As I said, I think a game where you put serious limits on what upgrades are allowed could be fun. Flying A-Wings without PtL would be hard, but if you do well with them you've really flown well.

To me removing all upgrades is going to far. Better IMO to come up with a fairly short list of upgrades that are allowed, and perhaps even treat them all as unique to get the effect that's wanted without warping the game as much.

To me removing all upgrades is going to far. Better IMO to come up with a fairly short list of upgrades that are allowed, and perhaps even treat them all as unique to get the effect that's wanted without warping the game as much.

Ha! I just added that in an edit to my post above. Too funny.

I do think even just putting a PS cap could see people fly different ships than normal. No one above PS 6 would be an interesting game.

Pretty much. With no upgrades to open up new options or make aces, well, aces, the game becomes a question of who can bring the most efficient squad. 8 ties, 8 Zs, or 4BZ are the most efficient so that's what will become top of the food chain. Scum would be irrelevant.

Scum would be irrelevant.

I disagree with this. Besides the fact that they can do Z-95's, they can also go with an ordnance list that has as many Z-95's and either Assault Missiles or Homing Missiles (with Guidance Chips). Just go for the highest PS generic you can.

Still....yeah, you get that going on. I think swarms and ordnance would rule the day.

Yep, playing X-Wing naked is a great time for all adults.

...and flying squads with no upgrades is Hella-fun too!

(edit: added the age restriction)

I do like the idea of playing "bare bones" X-Wing once in a while. Get a feel for how the ships fly against one another with just their base stats, abilities, and actions. It's a fun way to play and I would definitely do it.

That said, it's not a format I would play that often. The sheer amount of upgrades can sometimes feel a bit overwhelming but they provide necessary variety for X-Wing. That massive amount of variety is what makes X-Wing so popular and fun to play.

Plus, in a "bare bones" meta, the TIE Swarm reigns supreme over everything else.

I disagree with this. Besides the fact that they can do Z-95's, they can also go with an ordnance list that has as many Z-95's and either Assault Missiles or Homing Missiles (with Guidance Chips). Just go for the highest PS generic you can.

Still....yeah, you get that going on. I think swarms and ordnance would rule the day.

Scum Bs (G-1As) might be ok with their PS3 and evade action, but having one fewer ship may hurt.

Oh, I completely forgot khiraxzes. 5 Ks would be good.

But if you allow titles and zero cost upgrades, you'd get nearly the same effect without removing nearly as many ships from the game. HWK's and Y-Wings would still be out, since neither of them work very well without a turret. But at least ARC's and SF's work, and the more broken ships like TA's and A-Wings are better, even if they lose half of what the title allows.

But the bottom line is... If you're playing X-Wing and having fun, you're doing it right.

That is what I was thinking the entire time really, it's necessary for the ships to have their titles for sure. My brain works in fits and starts.

I fully support having fun whatever way you like but this type of format is similar to the way we play for the most part. I play with a group of folks (most ex-military) who have brain issues/TBI's and we can't play with the 100/6 crowd. I have found out here is a large community out here that has no desire to go the MtG route, with a bazillion chained upgrades that you need a flow chart to figure out.

That being said, there is nothing wrong with that style of play either. I'm not an anti-tourney guy or anything, it's just not my thing, man. Follow your inner Pew Pew and all that.

I disagree with this. Besides the fact that they can do Z-95's, they can also go with an ordnance list that has as many Z-95's and either Assault Missiles or Homing Missiles (with Guidance Chips). Just go for the highest PS generic you can.

If we're talking no upgrades then ordnance isn't a thing.

Gah! I suck. Heh....yeah...I forgot about no ordnance.

I have found out here is a large community out here that has no desire to go the MtG route, with a bazillion chained upgrades that you need a flow chart to figure out.

Yeah, I know a lot of folk, too, that just don't like keeping up with all the latest whatnots, but like playing. It's funny, though, as I've chatted with people on these forums that basically only go to tournaments and game nights with tournament players. That scene is alive and well...and even growing. They don't see all the dissatisfied people and think that there are only a few people who feel this way. "Why is the game growing if there are so many people who feel this way?" is a question I've been asked often enough. Most people who grow dissatisfied with a game tend to just quietly wander off, so you just don't see it a lot if you are in the thick of it. If you are looking, though, you can find a good number of people that prefer it different. It's just a bit frustrating when talking to some people on these forums who just call casuals a "vocal minority" and believe it's just a couple of cranks who don't like 100/6.

I'll try to elaborate a defense of the idea's merit, so, here goes:

The reason why I think X-Wing is getting convoluted is because now that we are in nearly 10 waves deep, we are relying on wonky upgrades to disrupt the opponent's game plan rather than actually trying to out-fly or fly better than the opponent's list. For example, the interaction with Palpatine is just stupid, people have done the math a number of times saying that, if I recall correctly, if you change a result on a green die to an evade with Palp on a 36-point Soontir to prevent a single damage, you've already saved 12 points, already netting 4 points of profit in relation to the cost of Palp - and I think the statistics are similar to Rebel regen. The interactions between Dengar and Manaroo is ridiculous without any limitations to the amount of stress a ship can take, which makes cards like Zuckuss stupid. But that's just a few interactions that I've had a beef with, to quickly name a few others: PtL/VI on anything, Fat Han, Phantoms with ACD, TLTs, Black Market Slicer Tools, X7 Defender spam, Autothrusters, all the new weird rebel stuff coming out for Rogue One and HotR.

And I appreciate the feedback, however, even the recommendations of allowing a single upgrade or a single unique wouldn't work so well for the "Bare Bones" flavor. Just bring Palp, put PtL on Corran or Soontir or taking a single regen astromech makes the format a pain because any single upgrade can profit on an ability tenfold, I'm trying to remove that as a factor. I also didn't want to create a banlist for a particular format, whether it be of my choosing or a vote from the community. I feel like that would be too niche to hate out on specific options based on the standard meta. While the parameters for the "Bare Bones" format consequently encourages the most efficient strategies and discourages the inclusion of certain ships such as HWKs, ARCs, /sfs, Bombers, Scyks, etc., doesn't the standard format already do that? Why fly X ship when it is proven that an ace, or fat-large base ship, or a generic is already aeons better than the alternative? That's why we don't see triple bounty hunters prowling around standard, nor do we see 5 Khiraxz or lists that could be similar to Biggs Walks the Dogs anymore, either. Even allowing negative or zero point titles opens up X7 Defenders and A-Wing Spam.

So I just figured, instead of complaining and griping about certain upgrade cards and banning them or limiting the use of them, prohibit the use of all upgrade cards and make the playing field flat for players to test their mettle without relying on any upgrade cards at all. You can still take Soontir, Corran, Dengar, etc., but now you have to fly them to the best of your ability without relying on Palp and Autothrusters, VI/FCS, or Manaroo and Punishing One. I understand that jousting would dominate this kind of format just as much as I understand that Manaroo/X7 Defenders dominate the standard format. However, I think "Bare Bones" might bring out some different or older styles as a refreshing format.

And to add to the above, here in SoCal, we've had a number of events that were interesting such as the Welterweight-Class dogfight (PS6 and below, no large base ships) or Hard-Deck/Top Gun (60 points, minimum of two unique ships, I think) and Hangar Bay, which have all been interesting. "Bare Bones" is just something I proposed in theory and I'm glad you've all pointed out several flaws, the best I can to beyond this post is to say give it a shot yourself and let me know how it went. Not saying this should be an official format supported by FFG, but an alternative for a casual tournament play to break the repetitiveness of 100-point standard.

Sounds like an awful format. Hope you like tie swarms. If you want to mix things up, get more imaginative.

If you feel X-Wing is too complicated, I shudder to think of trying any other game out there.

I'm not sure if you're being hostile and/or condescending, but I hope the rest of my post elaborates on the first half of your comment.

As for the second half, I should have clarified that X-Wing is more complicated than it used to be, maybe even more complicated than it needs to be, nowadays. Personally, I feel like It's going down the road of Magic: The Gathering, where there are so many abilities and triggers going on in different phases that take away from the dogfighting aspect of the game and focuses more on card-based interactions.

And to list a few games that are less complicated than X-Wing for you to try out some time: Chess, Checkers, Jenga, Sorry!, Uno, Cards Against Humanity, Obama Llama, Resistance, rock-paper-scissors... I could go on but I think you get the idea.

prohibit the use of all upgrade cards and make the playing field flat for players to test their mettle without relying on any upgrade cards at all. You can still take Soontir, Corran, Dengar, etc., but now you have to fly them to the best of your ability without relying on Palp and Autothrusters, VI/FCS, or Manaroo and Punishing One.

But the whole point is that there is a way to prevent Palp or Autothrusters without making ships like Y-Wings or the Tie/sf completely pointless.

There are a number of upgrades with the sole purpose of making underperforming ships worth taking, but what you're doing is throwing the baby out with the bathwater and that is always IMO anyway a bad thing to do.

prohibit the use of all upgrade cards and make the playing field flat for players to test their mettle without relying on any upgrade cards at all. You can still take Soontir, Corran, Dengar, etc., but now you have to fly them to the best of your ability without relying on Palp and Autothrusters, VI/FCS, or Manaroo and Punishing One.

But the whole point is that there is a way to prevent Palp or Autothrusters without making ships like Y-Wings or the Tie/sf completely pointless.

There are a number of upgrades with the sole purpose of making underperforming ships worth taking, but what you're doing is throwing the baby out with the bathwater and that is always IMO anyway a bad thing to do.

What kind of banlist would you draft up for a "Bare Bones" format, then? I'm just curious because I know I would banhammer the hell out of Palp, Regen mechs and Zuckuss, which I think would just be "Standard Lite" or hating on the standard meta rather than the neutral bareness of no upgrade cards.

Sounds like an awful format. Hope you like tie swarms. If you want to mix things up, get more imaginative.

If you feel X-Wing is too complicated, I shudder to think of trying any other game out there.

I'm not sure if you're being hostile and/or condescending, but I hope the rest of my post elaborates on the first half of your comment.

No, what he is saying is that it will just become like some of the earlier wave metas. 8 Tie Fighters was the first netlist that was tough to beat out there. BBBBZ was a nasty list, as well. Basically, you could joust someone and blast them to pieces with this. Even when things were really slimmed down in the rules, there were people who figured out the best min/max lists to use. So...he's saying that people will just go with the most efficient lists you can. You just bring the meta back to what it was a few waves ago.

You're nostalgic for something that never existed. Soontir Fel and PtL have been in the game since wave 2. If you looked back in this forum to 3 years ago, I would not be surprised to find similar hand wringing about how we can't possibly handle 8 whole ships in the game.

What kind of banlist would you draft up for a "Bare Bones" format, then?

I'd actually do the reverse and come up with a list of allowed cards, because it would be much shorter.

I'd allow all generic astromechs, generic salvaged astros, bombs, cannons, turrets, missiles and torpedos. I'd allow all zero point titles, and the Heavy Scyk.

I think I'd allow generic crew, but maybe not. But no unique crew. I might allow any 0-1 point Elite talents, but again maybe not.

I think that would get the same feel you're looking for, but without making a number of ships worthless to take.

You're nostalgic for something that never existed. Soontir Fel and PtL have been in the game since wave 2. If you looked back in this forum to 3 years ago, I would not be surprised to find similar hand wringing about how we can't possibly handle 8 whole ships in the game.

Well...it could have existed in his area. Not everyone in my area jumped to netlisting so much. So, I didn't really see 8 Tie Fighters across the table much at all until Wave 3 or so. Also, Soontir Fel w/ PTL wasn't as bad until he got Stealth Device and Auto Thrusters at the same time. I've blown up Soontir Fel w/ my old school Darth Vader many times.

The first few waves in my general area had a lot of people coming up with all sorts of crazy combos all the time. You could go to an event and fully expect to have never seen any list before...unless it was a buddy that you have played a lot.

i think a regular tie swarm would just utterly crush everything.