Two of the greatest tie swarm players in the history of the game told me at worlds that they think the tie swarm either dead or on life support. With all the super accurate handfuls of red dice being chucked around, and all the green dice being negated, the poor old tie fighter is caught between the devil and the deep blue sea.. Kinetic Operator told Tyler he would rather have a concussion missile than a tie fighter right now!

I do miss the Tie Swam but other than that I think it's a great group of lists in the top 32!

I like seeing the BBBXZ up there and the two lists with old school Falcons!

I'm surprised that Rebels made such a small percentage of the overall entries to the tourney but were in two of the top 4 lists.

Two of the greatest tie swarm players in the history of the game told me at worlds that they think the tie swarm either dead or on life support. With all the super accurate handfuls of red dice being chucked around, and all the green dice being negated, the poor old tie fighter is caught between the devil and the deep blue sea.. Kinetic Operator told Tyler he would rather have a concussion missile than a tie fighter right now!

I wonder how the old 8 ship swarm would fare... it's still allot of shots, and you have allot of blockers, but at the same time, your also relying on allot of green dice...

FFG has their hands full running an event which happens to be their biggest of the year. If they didn't allow the likes of Gold Squadron to keep us informed, then you should complain. I think they do a fine job of allowing a fan base to get involved without trying to monopolize it.

Have they linked to the Gold Squadron?

FFG OP was cool about letting us cast, but to be clear they didn't exactly support us. The data plan we had to use to make the cast -- a tethered iPhone -- is going to hit us with 15 bucks per gigabyte of overage charges. I am guessing it will be in the hundred dollar range when it's all said and done. This is while the official feed is using corporate wifi I bet they view us as more of an annoyance then anything else.

But hey, as long as the podcasts and software developers keep doing free work despite the lack of public acknowledgement or private show of gratitude ... why change?

Two of the greatest tie swarm players in the history of the game told me at worlds that they think the tie swarm either dead or on life support. With all the super accurate handfuls of red dice being chucked around, and all the green dice being negated, the poor old tie fighter is caught between the devil and the deep blue sea.. Kinetic Operator told Tyler he would rather have a concussion missile than a tie fighter right now!

Thry hyper defense in so many lists doesnt help either. Even if you can keep your ties alive through your opponents attacks, 2 dice are never going to do any damage to a lot of targets in todays meta after crackshot is gone

Thanks Again to MajorJuggler!!!

And all the people who sourced live info for us folks follo-wing online!

Two of the greatest tie swarm players in the history of the game told me at worlds that they think the tie swarm either dead or on life support. With all the super accurate handfuls of red dice being chucked around, and all the green dice being negated, the poor old tie fighter is caught between the devil and the deep blue sea.. Kinetic Operator told Tyler he would rather have a concussion missile than a tie fighter right now!

Well that was anticlimactic.

Well done Nand. Most star wars named champion ever

Sergeant Nanda was in charge of security of the Nonessential Equipment Storage and Disposal Facility 456 on Sirpar . A grizzly veteran, his true intent was to retire.

I'm thinking about the list diversity here. Is it just because the game just happens to be in a really great, balanced place right now? Does anyone feel like maybe more of it was due to the Contracted Scout upheaval being so recent?

mostly cuz the upheaval so recent. In the next few months, I think the meta is ging to go in painful ways. Albiet, still better than we used to have. (Anyone remember those dark dark days fo Wave4 and 5?) (The idea of EU large ships still makes me wanna puke)

green dice are infuriating as they are always unreliable and can lead to undeserved victories/loses, anything that mitigates their effectiveness should always be welcome

Why specifically green dice? Are red dice somehow not infuriating and don't lead to undeserved victories/loses? Rolling 4 natural hits on an unmodified hlc isn't some bs as much as 4 unmodified natural evades from a blocked soontir?

Personally I prefer to roll 1 natural hit and 3 crits with my target lock. Take this biggs … ;-)

Just out of curiosity, how much do you guys think the Biggs nerf affected Worlds? Aside from Zach Bunn, I didn't see a single Biggs, which was surprising.

I was a little surprised to see no one flying an ARC-170 at Worlds. But I don't get the feeling that the slight Nerf to Biggs changed someone's mind who would've flown them so there must have been other reasons...

Biggs was there in a lot of the rebel lists where his protection made sense and would've fit the points. I don't think the FAQ had much to do with it. It mostly affected Biggs and ordnance and I don't think there was enough old fashioned ordnance for that to matter.

The question is why? Homing missiles are great and scum has plenty of ordnance carriers which work now fine thanks to the removal of the wolfpack. I get it that rebel regen is killing bomb lists, so those double k-wings lists are unlikely to get into high places unless they are lucky not to run into regen, but good old homing missile carriers backup by zuckuss, 4-loom, etc … ? They should have been there and I did not see anyone flying them.

edit:

Let me emphasis this, scum homing missile salvos kill one palp defender per turn.

So Dengaroo wins? It's what i kind of expected. Corran/Miranda just has a bad matchup there (well just as they have a good one vs. PalpAces and Defenders). I could not watch the game but reading Corran just got deleted makes sense.

Did Kevin face any Dengaroo lists earlier in the cuts?

Sadly now they can't nerf Zuckuss for a while. Doing this would be admitting that the world champions list had an OP card in it.

But congrats to my neighbour Nand from Belgium. On a player level, extremely well done Benelux, i am proud of you all!

On a list level, we had a few surprises but in the end a heavily favorized list won, i would have preferred the underdog story happen here.

Lots more stats to follow, but here are some basic ones. Post #2 will have the stats analysis.

Meta Comparisons for Worlds 2013 - 2016


Unless otherwise noted, baselines are:

• Worlds 2013 Top Cut (16)
• Worlds 2014 Top Cut (32)
• Worlds 2015 6-2 or better (32)
• Worlds 2016 6-2 or better (41)

Faction breakdown
2013 2014 2015 2016
Rebels 56.25% 62.5% 40.6% 24.4%
Imperials 43.75% 37.5% 25.0% 29.3%
Scum 34.4% 46.3%




Named vs Generic usage by points

2016
2013 2014 2015 (41) (16) (8) (4)
Named Pilots 33.3% 53.2% 53.8% 76.0% 76.2% 88.6% 91.7%
Generic Pilots 66.7% 46.8% 46.2% 24.0% 23.8% 11.4% 8.3%
Vanilla generics 66.7% 46.8% 12 .7% 10.0% 2.1% 0.0% 0.0%




* Vanilla generics exclude:

• Emperor Palpatine
• Twin Laser Turret
• Zuckuss crew
• TIE Fighter + Crackshot
• Contracted Scouts + Torpedoes

Edit: I might take a few days to pull in more stats. I spent more or less the entire weekend collecting and compiling data for The Internet. I might need a break for a few days.

So Dengaroo wins? It's what i kind of expected. Corran/Miranda just has a bad matchup there (well just as they have a good one vs. PalpAces and Defenders). I could not watch the game but reading Corran just got deleted makes sense.

Did Kevin face any Dengaroo lists earlier in the cuts?

Sadly now they can't nerf Zuckuss for a while. Doing this would be admitting that the world champions list had an OP card in it.

But congrats to my neighbour Nand from Belgium. On a player level, extremely well done Benelux, i am proud of you all!

On a list level, we had a few surprises but in the end a heavily favorized list won, i would have preferred the underdog story happen here.

Its far from agreed that zuckuss even needs a nerf. I dont think he does. The only thing that makes bim so good in dengaroo is manaroo. If she dies, zuckuss dengar isnt nrarly so scary. Party bus is scary to get shot by, but far more easily countered. And you pretty much dont see zuckuss anywhere else because the stress is too limiting.

... Is Dengaroo actually overpowered or just good ?? Frankly, I hate Dengaroo more than most, but I'm still really sure its broken .

Also, Jm2k does need some good builds still.

Dengar is a weird ship... We all thought he wasn't going to be very good. And in actual mathematics, he usually doesn't have the durability. But hitting like a truck with zuckuss twice sure changes things.

Not sure if hes good outside of Manaroo, but then add a crappy 2die support ship and hes OP??

So Dengaroo wins? It's what i kind of expected. Corran/Miranda just has a bad matchup there (well just as they have a good one vs. PalpAces and Defenders). I could not watch the game but reading Corran just got deleted makes sense.

Did Kevin face any Dengaroo lists earlier in the cuts?

Sadly now they can't nerf Zuckuss for a while. Doing this would be admitting that the world champions list had an OP card in it.

But congrats to my neighbour Nand from Belgium. On a player level, extremely well done Benelux, i am proud of you all!

On a list level, we had a few surprises but in the end a heavily favorized list won, i would have preferred the underdog story happen here.

Its far from agreed that zuckuss even needs a nerf. I dont think he does. The only thing that makes bim so good in dengaroo is manaroo. If she dies, zuckuss dengar isnt nrarly so scary. Party bus is scary to get shot by, but far more easily countered. And you pretty much dont see zuckuss anywhere else because the stress is too limiting.

And even then he is only good against ships with green dice in the first place. VI RAC has the PS to outmanouver Dengar and the speed to catch Manaroo. He can also equip Palpatine if your other ship desires it that much. Return of the fat Decimator?

... Is Dengaroo actually overpowered or just good?? Frankly, I hate Dengaroo more than most, but I'm still really sure its broken.

Also, Jm2k does need some good builds still.

Dengar is a weird ship... We all thought he wasn't going to be very good. And in actual mathematics, he usually doesn't have the durability. But hitting like a truck with zuckuss twice sure changes things.

Not sure if hes good outside of Manaroo, but then add a crappy 2die support ship and hes OP??

Dengar himself is not OP. It's the abomination of him, Manaroo and Zuckuss that just lets it ignore a lot of mechanics. Zuckuss for example is not good on any ship but ones that don't need their own actions (Partybus or Dengaroo). Dengar for himself is pretty squishy, but always having focus does indeed help.

Manaroo is very useful in a lot of lists, but rather expensive if designed to run away and support. We could see Yesterday that she is also great with Fenn Rau, overcoming his weaknesses.

It took some time for people to figure out Dengaroo (not much reason to look for other builds when you can have U-Boat spam), but as soon as it was discovered, the broken combo became evident.

We have had ships that ignore stress before, but they were puny little A-Wings that were just ignored. You can't ignore Dengr. Especially with Zuckuss. He can hurt enemy ships more reliably than most others, even ones that usually have great defense.

When this combo comes together, it is broken. I wondered when they nerfed U-Boats why they did nothing about Dengaroo as it probably had as much wins as Torpscouts lately.

Why is it broken? Because it ignores too many game mechanics between its PWT, Zuckuss and Both ships pilot skills, while still having good stats and great adaptation choices between all the crew and Droids Scum has. There is no really bad matchup for Dengaroo. Defenders should be, but we saw yesterday that this wasn't exactly the case.

In my book Zuckuss is the most (pretty much the only) broken part of the combo. He would even be worth it at 5 points in this build, and just the sheer lack of limitations makes him broken. Any number of dice during any number of attacks on any dice, even Focii. No limits and endlessly flexible! If this was one die once per turn, the card would still be worth it for one point, but not make Dengaroo basically ignore defense dice unless the opponent is insanely lucky or has a lot of defensive rerolls himself (which are rare, my hopes are on Rey)

Dengar himself is not op at all, and Manaroo kinda pays a steep price for what she does. The only criticism is the lack of range restriction on her ability. This is what allows her to just run away from most stuff. It would still be awkward if they nerfed her, she just has begone showing her potential in other interesting scum lists.

Just to make this clear i don't want to diminish Nand's victory here. He sure deserves this and is a great player, congrats again to him.

The level of complaint in this thread is absolutely awful.

No one gets to top 16 of Worlds for ANY event, let alone one that requires serious pilot skill like X-Wing, flying a "braindead" list. Sure Dengaroo is a good list, but so are a ton of other lists out there. The main reason you're complaining is because this one won, and Zuckuss did something. Manaroo is fine; she's a great support ship with interesting mechanics. There is nothing that is more of less broken about Dengaroo than other lists have access to.

If this list was so broken and so braindead, it would be literally everywhere; it wasn't. Palp Defender/Ace variants ARE everywhere, why are we not complaining about those? Free evade tokens and unrestricted die modification is oppressive, so oppressive that it pushes tons of lists out of the meta because without a reliable way to break insane defense stacks you simply won't hurt Palp aces. You know what's good against insane defense stacks? Zuckuss. Cards like Zuckuss that help push damage through defense stacking, or let you blow through ships with regen, are GOOD for the game. Offense is more interesting than defense and long, drawn out jousts.

The X-Wing meta is really good right now. It would be nice if basic ships weren't being pushed out by incredible dials, regen, and defense stacking, but that in itself and the number of ways to play and counterplay it is providing a varied meta and this is good, plus we have more shake-up about to happen with HotR and then a new wave in December.

Crying at the worlds winning list for nerfs - especially when the list that it beat is probably one of the most negative play experience inducing lists to play against - is awful. Let's talk about how much variation there was, about how awesome all of these players were to watch (Kevin's games were great to watch because he played his list SO well; maybe there's some salt here because a lot of you guys were rooting for him and he lost? I dont know), about how many variations there are in the most popular archetype (Palp Xs) which still keeps it interesting. Let's celebrate a great event. Let's not cry for nerfs because our particular favourite list didn't win or because a card trumped randomness.

There is no really bad matchup for Dengaroo. Defenders should be, but we saw yesterday that this wasn't exactly the case.

How much have you really played with/against Dengaroo if you really believe there aren't really any bad machups?

There is no really bad matchup for Dengaroo. Defenders should be, but we saw yesterday that this wasn't exactly the case.

How much have you really played with/against Dengaroo if you really believe there aren't really any bad machups?

Quad TLTs are so much fun to watch against dengaroo.

Are we forgetting with all this complaining that there were other Dengaroo players there and they lost. It isn't op or broken it's just a very good list. This "the sky is falling" attitude happens every time.

The level of complaint in this thread is absolutely awful.

...

Free evade tokens and unrestricted die modification is oppressive, so oppressive that it pushes tons of lists out of the meta

...

the list that it beat is probably one of the most negative play experience inducing lists to play against

I agree that it's sour to moan about Zuck in response to someone's having just won worlds, but I don't agree that the best way to combat that is by taking on the mantle of Grand High Moan Lord.

The level of complaint in this thread is absolutely awful.

...

Free evade tokens and unrestricted die modification is oppressive, so oppressive that it pushes tons of lists out of the meta

...

the list that it beat is probably one of the most negative play experience inducing lists to play against

I agree that it's sour to moan about Zuck in response to someone's having just won worlds, but I don't agree that the best way to combat that is by taking on the mantle of Grand High Moan Lord.

Note that nowhere do I talk about nerfing Palp Xs. What I do say is:

"The X-Wing meta is really good right now. It would be nice if basic ships weren't being pushed out by incredible dials, regen, and defense stacking, but that in itself and the number of ways to play and counterplay it is providing a varied meta and this is good"

That is what it is, both defense stacking and regen are oppressive enough that if you can't deal with them then the play experience *is* negative. But importantly, oppressive in one way is not oppressive in ALL ways and FFG have gone the right way about it; they've introduced tons of variations in list building that mean you can build to beat these things, and that is why the meta is diverse, which is excellent. And which is why calls for a Zuckuss or whatever nerf are unwarranted, because this build is just one piece in a good meta.