I think Kevin's mistake was to keep Miranda out of the fight for so long. The conner net drop was neat but in the end, ineffective. Nand flew very well. Both players deserved to be there. I watched an earlier game of Kevin's and he flies his list very well. Good strategy and use of both ships. I think he was nervous and tired in the final game. Once Nand killed Corran it seemed to take the wind out of Kevin's sails. The chance that Miranda could win against these 2 ships alone was astronomically slim.

I believe he conceded when he realized he didn't have a solid strategy to win anymore. Sure he might have taken one of Nand's ships down but at the end of the day it wouldn't have made a difference. The game was over once Corran was dead.

Is the best way to beat Dengaroo is by taking Manaroo out first?

It is certainly one way. Eliminating Manny leaves Dengar with a pile of stress and no actions but is easier said than done. The JumpMaster is a lot faster and slipperier than a Lambda and you have to get past Dengar if you want to shoot at his GF. Given that Dengar excels at jousting, this may not be an enviable place to be.

You need a ship (or ships) with sufficient speed, durability and firepower if you want to Manaroo hunting. Also, something to pile on some stress will help since killing Manny will take a few turns but stressing her will have an immediate effect on Dengar. A cheapish VCX-100 with EU and tactician might be a good place to start. Fast enough to hunt Manny down, shooty enough to put the hurt on her and Tactician to lay on stress to make the Dengaroo player's day harder.

47 Hera (40), EU (4), Tactician (2), Nien Numb (1)

Hera with Nien allows you to vary your speed as all your straight maneuvers are green. This makes it easier to keep Manny in the Range 2 band for Tactician. Other upgrades are optional.

Kanan-Biggs is another very good build to counter Dengaroo as you have the firepower and resilience to directly joust Dengar, even with all his modifiers as Biggs means he will max out at 2-3 damage per turn on the Ghost while the Ghost will be blazing away with its big primaries and TLT. Once Dengar's counter-measures are out of the way, he will melt fairly quickly.

The only thing we have seen at the top tables are a few good Mindlink lists with Fenn Rau . I don't even know if anyone at all brought Guri or Palob however. So even if they 100% countered Dengaroo, it does not matter because it will not encounter them.

There were two Manaroo/Fenn/Palob lists that I saw (and I was one of them). I did not make day two (losing to my friend and his Dengaroo that I beat 6 out of 7 games the week before!). The other one was 4-2 on day one. He had Cloaking Device; I had Moldy Crow. I am now refitting my HWK. There may have been others that I did not see.

The only thing we have seen at the top tables are a few good Mindlink lists with Fenn Rau . I don't even know if anyone at all brought Guri or Palob however. So even if they 100% countered Dengaroo, it does not matter because it will not encounter them.

There were two Manaroo/Fenn/Palob lists that I saw (and I was one of them). I did not make day two (losing to my friend and his Dengaroo that I beat 6 out of 7 games the week before!). The other one was 4-2 on day one. He had Cloaking Device; I had Moldy Crow. I am now refitting my HWK. There may have been others that I did not see.

I encountered one Manaroo/Fenn/Palob build, so either I was your round 2 opponent (Bomber/SF/x7 build) or there was one more list.

The only thing we have seen at the top tables are a few good Mindlink lists with Fenn Rau . I don't even know if anyone at all brought Guri or Palob however. So even if they 100% countered Dengaroo, it does not matter because it will not encounter them.

There were two Manaroo/Fenn/Palob lists that I saw (and I was one of them). I did not make day two (losing to my friend and his Dengaroo that I beat 6 out of 7 games the week before!). The other one was 4-2 on day one. He had Cloaking Device; I had Moldy Crow. I am now refitting my HWK. There may have been others that I did not see.

I encountered one Manaroo/Fenn/Palob build, so either I was your round 2 opponent (Bomber/SF/x7 build) or there was one more list.

That was me with Fenn stuck with an awful choice on turn three: kill Tomax and die or split fire and maybe die anyway! You successfully convinced me to put a Cloaking Device on Palob for the future! :/

So you think most players that did play rebels did plan to play them anyway. But if they were good specialized players, we should rather have seen about 25%!rebels make the cut, no?

Not exactly. I think that a significant percentage of the drop-off was from people who said, "Hey, Torp-Scouts got nerfed," and then brought a Rebel list they hadn't significantly practiced with. I think another chunk was from people just bringing "fun" lists. (I dunno about your local meta, but in mine, the "in it for fun" players are usually the Rebels.)

It should be obvious that I really don't have any way of knowing ... I'm just making best guesses.

Okay, but on worlds, i can't imagine anyone really bringing a fun, friendly, fly casual list XD. I mean you could if you didn't care at all, but then why even bother winning regionals and making the trip? Okay the whole event is probably cool, but... Idk.

Okay, but on worlds, i can't imagine anyone really bringing a fun, friendly, fly casual list XD. I mean you could if you didn't care at all, but then why even bother winning regionals and making the trip? Okay the whole event is probably cool, but... Idk.

I mean, I guess it sorta depends on whether you make the judgment based on results, right? I mean, Sable Griffon's triple-Warden all-bombs list would have been -- and I still think it is -- a fun list.

I have never been to Worlds, but at the Regionals I've attended there have always been a healthy percentage of fun lists.

Just for definitional purposes, by "fun list" I don't mean a list that is bad , or one that someone doesn't intend to really try to win with, or one brought by a not-so-good list-builder who just doesn't know better. I just mean a list that is designed more around what the player truly enjoys flying -- winning aside, since pretty much everybody enjoys winning -- with little or no conscious input from what is meta-stronk.

That's Sable Griffon's list, IMO. (The last straw of proof? Cluster Mines instead of Conner Nets.)

That's Sable Griffon's list, IMO. (The last straw of proof? Cluster Mines instead of Conner Nets.)

Cluster mines are actually pretty good after the change. Why do 1 damage and ion an ace if you have a decent chance of doing several damage and killing it outright?

Oh, here was me if anyone cares:

Chris Allen (Stele 2016 Top 8, Origins 13th, Gencon 2016 9th)

3-3

MoV: Let's not talk about it

Ryad + PtL + Mk2 + x7

Vessery + Juke + x7 + Guidance Chips

Omicron Group Pilot + Palpatine + Collision Detector + Guidance Chips

Looking at Dengaroo (and having flown it myself, reasonably successfully, at the local regional), the thing that stands out that makes it work isn't just Manaroo or even Zuckuss.

No, it's the dial .

Prior to the Jumpmaster there were precisely two ways to turn a multiply stressed ship around (at least more than once): be a TIE Defender, or be Tycho with Daredevil. The TIE defender was the only ship with a white K-turn, and it paid for it.

However the Jumpmaster's utterly incredible dial includes the white SLoop, allowing Dengar to turn around while still stressed. Without it, Dengaroo would probably be an interesting niche list... if it was played at all.

What would Dengaroo look like without the ability to turn Dengar around in one turn?

The final match of X-Wing Miniatures was very bad. Someone told me that this is what happens when the players gets exhausted after playing more than 10 hours. I think Fantasy Flight Games needs to change some stuff and not make those tourneys so much tiresome mentally and physically. Gotta have few matches per day and the finals should each be played in a different day. Then all players would be at their 100% and we would watch better quality matches.

One of the issue about worlds is that it is such a big tournament. FFG wants this to be an inclusive event which boost sales. One way to adapt the structure might be to split worlds into two events, a qualification tournament which will secure you a spot in 6 months for the main event and the main event itself which requires a qualification via nationals or the worlds side event. This way you might be able to cut worlds themselves to about 128 guys, play swiss and make a 32 player cut and play a single or double elimination with the remaining on day 2. At the same time have that big qualification tourney going on for the next worlds event.

The question is: Are there enough nationals and other big tournaments to have a meaningful field of players for worlds. FFG should have those numbers, especially as they invited all national winners this year to worlds iirc.

System Open Series, NA Championship, announced Euro Championship - there's quite a lot of events. They can also do two Worlds qualifiers, one in teh US and one in Europe.

I do know MJ thought/knew that Palp Defenders was one of the best values in the game, so at least for that, he has some predicative creds.

Sheeeeit. I haven't had a math class since Calculus in the summer following my sophomore year in high school, and I knew that before it was a gleam in Bob's eye.

(I don't, BTW, think Palpatine is broken ... as long you kill the ****** Lambda first.)

Is the best way to beat Dengaroo is by taking Manaroo out first?

Yes, if you don't need to expose too much to do it. Sometimes it's just easier to spam Dengar with shots, especially if you can shoot him out of arc.

EDIT: sorry for the double post, too many tabs open...

Now, I'm inclined to agree about the overpoweredness of large ships, but in this case, there's an unfortunate problem of trying to make a PWT's arc relevant. As noted of Dengar AND the scout ability to fire torps.

I also think that they're just making the large ship dials wayyy too forgiving. I know they need to be forgiving, to increase dynamic play for the PWT, but honestly they're a little over forgiving now atm I think. too many choices and very rarely guessable.

I think both sloops being red and even losing the 3slight turns would have been fair.

Hell the **** thing also has a 4kturn. Like, WHY?

I do think though that they were intending for it to be able to get angles on stuff and still fire with relative efficiency.

Also, personally, I've simply found it to be that its quite hard to predict the JMK correctly, esp after barrel roll, but their low hp makes it usually ok. And Dengar's self stressing limits movement and BR options to the point that Dengaroo is fightable, but definitely not fun.

Its really stupid to watch someone just do whatever the hell they want with 2 large ships. Should be stricter amount of planning and movement consideration required.

The final match of X-Wing Miniatures was very bad. Someone told me that this is what happens when the players gets exhausted after playing more than 10 hours. I think Fantasy Flight Games needs to change some stuff and not make those tourneys so much tiresome mentally and physically. Gotta have few matches per day and the finals should each be played in a different day. Then all players would be at their 100% and we would watch better quality matches.

I thought it was a high quality game. The only weird thing was Torfs scooping the conner net, but he won.

Oh, here was me if anyone cares:

Chris Allen (Stele 2016 Top 8, Origins 13th, Gencon 2016 9th)

3-3

MoV: Let's not talk about it

Ryad + PtL + Mk2 + x7

Vessery + Juke + x7 + Guidance Chips

Omicron Group Pilot + Palpatine + Collision Detector + Guidance Chips

Oh, you were the one beating Paul Heaver?

I thought it was a high quality game. The only weird thing was Torfs scooping the conner net, but he won.

The commentators asked him about this, and he said that he had set the dial to land in front of the net and barrel roll away from it. The problem was that he had forgotten that Dengar was stressed and couldn't perform the needed barrel roll.

I'm not sure that a broad statement like "large ships are overpowered" has legs considering that the #2 list in this worlds was a pair of small ships. How many large ship lists did he have to defeat to get there?

I'm not sure that a broad statement like "large ships are overpowered" has legs considering that the #2 list in this worlds was a pair of small ships. How many large ship lists did he have to defeat to get there?

Frankly, I'm not sure why that list wins anything. Although, I will hazard that Miranda is really strong and I griped about how she didn't even have a doughnut hole after Dash and TLT. But... still, I cant imagine that he didnt have bad luck with Corran at all ever until inexplicably the last match.

Seriously, I don't understand the Corran Miranda list.

The final match of X-Wing Miniatures was very bad. Someone told me that this is what happens when the players gets exhausted after playing more than 10 hours. I think Fantasy Flight Games needs to change some stuff and not make those tourneys so much tiresome mentally and physically. Gotta have few matches per day and the finals should each be played in a different day. Then all players would be at their 100% and we would watch better quality matches.

One of the issue about worlds is that it is such a big tournament. FFG wants this to be an inclusive event which boost sales. One way to adapt the structure might be to split worlds into two events, a qualification tournament which will secure you a spot in 6 months for the main event and the main event itself which requires a qualification via nationals or the worlds side event. This way you might be able to cut worlds themselves to about 128 guys, play swiss and make a 32 player cut and play a single or double elimination with the remaining on day 2. At the same time have that big qualification tourney going on for the next worlds event.

The question is: Are there enough nationals and other big tournaments to have a meaningful field of players for worlds. FFG should have those numbers, especially as they invited all national winners this year to worlds iirc.

People have a real life as well, and many probably could have problems spending 4-5 consecutive days (excluding travel time) playing x-wing, maybe far-away. Stretching it over say 2 consecutive weekends poses a problem for people from far-away as well, they either stay 2 weeks or travel 2 times. Advantageous for people in the vicinity, potentially very problematic for people from other continents.

Stretching over 2 events has the travel problem again and the meta might shift hugely between the 2 events, thus them playing maybe even a different faction next time they meet.

Difficult.

I was not talking about stretching the event. I was talking about running a qualification tourney for the next main event at the same time the main event runs. This only works if there are enough nationals, regionals and whatever else can be used as qualification tournaments. The side-event would be mainly to keep the event inclusive while making sure that the main event is not just an exercise in stamina.

People from other continents are not even in that equation, they have their nationals to qualify in the first place.

I'm not sure that a broad statement like "large ships are overpowered" has legs considering that the #2 list in this worlds was a pair of small ships. How many large ship lists did he have to defeat to get there?

Frankly, I'm not sure why that list wins anything. Although, I will hazard that Miranda is really strong and I griped about how she didn't even have a doughnut hole after Dash and TLT. But... still, I cant imagine that he didnt have bad luck with Corran at all ever until inexplicably the last match.

Seriously, I don't understand the Corran Miranda list.

I watched some of his games, he had bad luck. He just knew his list.

Now, if you flew it, you probably would fail.

Looking at Dengaroo (and having flown it myself, reasonably successfully, at the local regional), the thing that stands out that makes it work isn't just Manaroo or even Zuckuss.

No, it's the dial .

Prior to the Jumpmaster there were precisely two ways to turn a multiply stressed ship around (at least more than once): be a TIE Defender, or be Tycho with Daredevil. The TIE defender was the only ship with a white K-turn, and it paid for it.

However the Jumpmaster's utterly incredible dial includes the white SLoop, allowing Dengar to turn around while still stressed. Without it, Dengaroo would probably be an interesting niche list... if it was played at all.

What would Dengaroo look like without the ability to turn Dengar around in one turn?

Add to this the white sloop, the extremely useful combination of slots (and scums very good crew, astros and illicit stuff) and you have an absolute winner.

Now find a combo like Manaroo/Dengar with Zuckuss and we are automatically borderlining between powerful and broken.

The trend towards stressless turns seems also clear. Defenders, Jumpmasters are dominating the meta and Rebels will soon have Rey with Kanan who also does the trick. It's just by all means difficult to counter... Also look at the Ghost with Hera which does essentially also enable it to chain 5Ks

So we are saying that there are too many ways to 'break' core mechanics of the game i.e. stress?

I'm not sure that a broad statement like "large ships are overpowered" has legs considering that the #2 list in this worlds was a pair of small ships. How many large ship lists did he have to defeat to get there?

Frankly, I'm not sure why that list wins anything. Although, I will hazard that Miranda is really strong and I griped about how she didn't even have a doughnut hole after Dash and TLT. But... still, I cant imagine that he didnt have bad luck with Corran at all ever until inexplicably the last match.

Seriously, I don't understand the Corran Miranda list.

Bombs WRECK aces. Also, it's amazingly hard to avoid a bomb from a k-wing.

So we are saying that there are too many ways to 'break' core mechanics of the game i.e. stress?

Not really - stress is a double-edged sword. No actions and no way to remove an "Action" crit.

I'm not sure that a broad statement like "large ships are overpowered" has legs considering that the #2 list in this worlds was a pair of small ships. How many large ship lists did he have to defeat to get there?

Frankly, I'm not sure why that list wins anything. Although, I will hazard that Miranda is really strong and I griped about how she didn't even have a doughnut hole after Dash and TLT. But... still, I cant imagine that he didnt have bad luck with Corran at all ever until inexplicably the last match.

Seriously, I don't understand the Corran Miranda list.

Bombs WRECK aces. Also, it's amazingly hard to avoid a bomb from a k-wing.

Not necessarily true. Its easy as long as you don't approach head-on (and you avoid tailing too close). Asteroids can also help by limiting possible SLAM options.