Totally.. his re-roll, is before all the other modifications the defender can do.

Just rules checking here.. Can a defender reroll a dice the attacker reroll.. IE is the restriction on rerolling just on dice you personally have rerolled?

No, he can't. At least if it works like effects force-rerolling attack dice, which it should. I am pretty sure the general rule is that any die can only be rerolled once throughout an entire sequence, be it attack or defense.

Edit: Not that it matters too much, Lone Wolf is the only card I would expect to see that rerolls defense dice.

important: When a die is changed or rerolled, ignore its original result and apply only the new result. This new result may be modified by other effects; however, a die that has already been rerolled cannot be rerolled again during this attack.

TBH that is the one change I would make to the core rules, I'm not sure how fair it is for a reroll by the opponent should lock you out from using one of your rerolls from upgrades.

I don't know, before Zuckuss there weren't many strong force rerolls. I liked how those were better because of also preventing the opponents modification, I view it as a feature.

poe with sensor cluster autothrusters..... dengaroo is not gonna like seeing that

Hot-shot CoPilot VI RAC /w Gunner will though!

Totally.. his re-roll, is before all the other modifications the defender can do.

Just rules checking here.. Can a defender reroll a dice the attacker reroll.. IE is the restriction on rerolling just on dice you personally have rerolled?

No, he can't. At least if it works like effects force-rerolling attack dice, which it should. I am pretty sure the general rule is that any die can only be rerolled once throughout an entire sequence, be it attack or defense.

Edit: Not that it matters too much, Lone Wolf is the only card I would expect to see that rerolls defense dice.

Rey can reroll defense, and is up-and-coming. You should expect to see her more.

Wired can reroll defense, and is common on Zeta Leader; not as prominent as Lone Wolf.

Probably more, but that's off the top of my head before my morning coffee.

Yeah, both of the last two games involving Dengaroo had more to do with tactics than zuckuss. Han getting blocked on a rock, Corran taking unanswered power shots from Dengar. It doesn't really matter if Corran had another turn or two to live because Corran would not get a shot. Same for a way out of position Jake.

The final game... this is a list game there is nearly no way for Corran and Miranda to win this.

That is not a bad thing, it's just nigh impossible for this particular list to get good shots off at Dengar without immediately falling apart. Miranda gets mostly outtraded by Dengar even with regen, Corran just can't joust with him nor will he be able to outmaneuver him due to pilot skill. And even then he will probably take more damage than he can regen due to Zuckuss, while disengaging against a large ship is pretty difficult. The bombs are a joker that can run Dengar into an asteroid or off the board, but for that you put Miranda at risk because you need to get in front of Dengar and will take more damage than you can hope to regen.

To have a chance, Kevin had to get basically both missiles off while simultaneously attacking with Corran and be extremely lucky not to lose anyone in return. But that is extremely hard to do barring bad piloting on Dengaroos side.

Add in Manaroos shots and Feedback array and it's just a very bad matchup. It's also not possible to catch Manaroo for the Rebel squad here.

This is totally okay, because look at what Corran/Miranda did to Palp and Manaroo plus aces the games before. That is simply what they excel at. Rock Paper Scissors balancing in a game is a good thing, if there are no lists that can do it pretty much all.

poe with sensor cluster autothrusters..... dengaroo is not gonna like seeing that

Hot-shot CoPilot VI RAC /w Gunner will though!

Concerning the reroll discussion, the FAQ states that the attacker can modify your defense dice, then the defender.

So if you roll an evade on Rey, for example Zuckuss can force a reroll, and after that the defender can not reroll the same die via Rey's ability.

Then since adding dice is a modification you could add a blank green and use your Rey reroll on all the dice not already rerolled by Zuckuss (so at least the blank you just added)

I think tgat is how it works. If not feel free to correct this!

poe with sensor cluster autothrusters..... dengaroo is not gonna like seeing that

Hot-shot CoPilot VI RAC /w Gunner will though!

True but Poe's anticipated partners in the new meta (Rey ghosts and Dash) would love to see that across the board.

Zuckus crew says that no ship can evade and negates a serious portion of the entire game. There needs to be some sort of limit.

Actually, all that Zuckuss does is prevent 'oh look, I got lucky on my 3 naked greenns and rolled 3 evades' moments. If you invest in your defense (focus/evade tokens) he becomes way less effective.

Green dice (with focus) have a 5/8 chance, each, of evading a hit. With Zuckuss this goes down to 25/64. That's about a 60% to blank one evade, 37% on two, 22% on three, and a 14% on four. Now, these three Agility ships, how much health do they have? 3? 4? (Brobot saviors: 8) Against a token stack on offense? Not a chance. Why do you think there were so many at world's? Because of how totally fair it was?

Dengar's average damage per attack is 2.4375 (3 reds with Focus and LW). A tocken stacker's average defence is 2.875 (Evade and Focus) BEFORE Autothrusters and Palpatine. Unless the opponent makes mistakes (like shooting back in arc without the needed tokens) Dengar flat-out loses this duel. 3 dice attacks haven't been enough in this game for a long time.

Now consider Zuckuss. The above average defense drops to 2.172 if you ignore Autothrusters and Palpatine. This means that, in average Dengar will get 1 damage in every 4 rounds.

Zuckus crew says that no ship can evade and negates a serious portion of the entire game. There needs to be some sort of limit.

Actually, all that Zuckuss does is prevent 'oh look, I got lucky on my 3 naked greenns and rolled 3 evades' moments. If you invest in your defense (focus/evade tokens) he becomes way less effective.

Green dice (with focus) have a 5/8 chance, each, of evading a hit. With Zuckuss this goes down to 25/64. That's about a 60% to blank one evade, 37% on two, 22% on three, and a 14% on four. Now, these three Agility ships, how much health do they have? 3? 4? (Brobot saviors: 8) Against a token stack on offense? Not a chance. Why do you think there were so many at world's? Because of how totally fair it was?

Dengar's average damage per attack is 2.4375 (3 reds with Focus and LW). A tocken stacker's average defence is 2.875 (Evade and Focus) BEFORE Autothrusters and Palpatine. Unless the opponent makes mistakes (like shooting back in arc without the needed tokens) Dengar flat-out loses this duel. 3 dice attacks haven't been enough in this game for a long time.

Now consider Zuckuss. The above average defense drops to 2.172 if you ignore Autothrusters and Palpatine. This means that, in average Dengar will get 1 damage in every 4 rounds.

But there is more to it. All the other ships that don't have 0 agility or This kind of action economy, AT and 3-4 agility are massively affected by Zuckuss.

To complain that 0 agility ships are unaffected by Zuckuss however is really a non-argument against him being so good. He costs 1 point and a slot where in 90% of the matchups he will massively influence the game in your favor.

I played the world champion round 8, he gave me my second loss, he is the most aggressive dengar player I have seen and each move was perfect. His dice were hot in our game but still he had me feeling out of position all game. The day before I had beaten Faan's (second in swiss) Dengaroo just by out toughing it (I was the chewie and two Tlt player). Nand has a well deserved win. The aggressive dengar just seems to catch everyone off guard especially with that initial barrel roll he does before piling up stress.

The problem is that most opponents save Soontir or Fenn Rau with Manaroo then don't have an offensive modification because thex need the focus for defense. And so will probably still lose the duel against Dengar!

Guri runs around with 2 to 5 focus tokens, etc Mindlink lists really have no trouble with getting offensive and defensive mods, they simply have the action efficiency for both. And Palob can completely ruin Dengar with the right initiative.

The problem is that most opponents save Soontir or Fenn Rau with Manaroo then don't have an offensive modification because they need the focus for defense. And so will probably still lose the duel against Dengar!

Guri runs around with 2 to 5 focus tokens, etc Mindlink lists really have no trouble with getting offensive and defensive mods, they simply have the action efficiency for both. And Palob can completely ruin Dengar with the right initiative.

Mindlink lists get focus but most of these ships don't get evades. I think you are talking about Protectorate Starfighters here.

Palob is funny against Dengar. You know what happens with him? One Glitterstim later he is crippled, then dead shortly after. I mean he has a great ability but he is a less maneuvrable, less durable X-Wing that just gets eaten alive by Dengar

The only thing we have seen at the top tables are a few good Mindlink lists with Fenn Rau . I don't even know if anyone at all brought Guri or Palob however. So even if they 100% countered Dengaroo, it does not matter because it will not encounter them.

I am regretting not asking the designers last night at our podcast session whether or not Dengaroo exists whole cloth in X-Wing 2.0

Either a stress cap for self-inflicted stress or damage for every stress over a certain number would really go a long way.

To be fair. most concerns about Zuckuss (and/or Palp) are not new after yesterday's championship match but when those kind of cards win, it does become a lightning rod for the criticism they are already getting. For those paying closer attention to the meta, when the FAQ was released one of the big discussions was that Palp and Zuckuss went untouched and that a lot of people looked at it as a missed opportunity.

I think it's also important to note that the majority of the community is very good at focusing their frustration on the cards, if they have those frustrations, and not on the players that bring them.

* Vanilla generics exclude:

• Emperor Palpatine
• Twin Laser Turret
• Zuckuss crew
• TIE Fighter + Crackshot
• Contracted Scouts + Torpedoes

At the risk of being ignorant - could you explain the difference between a Generic Pilot and a Vanilla Generic please? Is a vanilla generic essentially "any generic other than the 5 things I've determined as being meta combos we already know about?" - with TLT specifying any Y-Wing used as a TLT caddy? I am confused how Zuckuss crew fits into that archetype (is it a fancy way of saying party busses?)

"vanilla generic" obviously does not exist as a game mechanic, so the intent here was to identify generics whose tactics are generally of the wave 1-3 "point and shoot" archetype. I also wanted to exclude specific cards that are, to me anyway, clear power creep.

• Emperor Palpatine is virtually undisputed power creep, and the shuttle usually sits in the corner most the game.
• Twin Laser Turret was sufficient power creep in wave 7 to push out nearly all other generics in the game. This was predicted mathematically and empirically observed at 2015 Worlds.
• Including Zuckuss is essentially a way of excluding the Party Bus, although could apply to other ships in the future as well. A 34 point generic ship that carries three unique crew and can single handedly obliterate named aces does not fit the wave 1-3 jousting archetype that I had in mind.
• Crackshot is certainly power creep, as the classic wave 1 TIE Swarm is mathematically inferior in every way to the new CrackSwarm. However, I technically do allow for Crackshot on other ships, such as Dom Cairo's Glaive's, and still consider them "vanilla" generics. In Dom's case Crackshot is really icing on the cake. A 1 point upgrade on a 32 point x7 Defender does not affect the list nearly as much as it does on a Howlrunner swarm.
• Contracted Scouts with torpedoes even without deadeye is a very different mechanic than generic wave 1-3 jousters. There is an argument for including them as vanilla ships, but I felt that even with deadeye removed they are still power creep relative to the wave 1-3 ships.

It is interesting to see that split to Generics and Vanilla generics. It's only because one could argue that generics are still popular, but that is not true.

On the other hand, there should be Defender with title as well within Vanilla category imo and maybe an information about how big each vanilla is. It may be significant but also may be not if TIE's are like 0.2%.

Please, also show those vanillas as [ship] + [upgrades], i.e. Lambda + Emperor OR Any + TLT.

Many thanks Those statistics are really great and you have done fantastic job pulling it out for us.

For the purpose of stat tracking, I still technically consider generic x7 Defenders to be "vanilla" generics. There is a legitimate argument for nudging them out of the vanilla category along with TLT Y-wings, both on the basis of having superior cost efficiency relative to the benchmark wave 1-3 ships. It has relatively little effect on the overall statistics, as Dom's list is one of the few cases of generic x7s out of all the 6-2 players.

I figure as long as the methodology is clearly defined then the information is useful regardless of one's personal opinion on how to slice the data. The raw data of course is available for anyone to analyze however they like.

Perhaps the most noteworthy statistic is the complete lack of any TIE Swarms (even the Crackshot variant) making 6-2. Ship usage and squad archetype stats are next in the queue.

Again, without Manaroo's focus token Zuckuss would not have helped push that damage through.

Manaroo's unlimited range is the problem moreso than Zuckuss. Zuckuss only works in two builds, Dengaroo and Party Bus.

I think it's also important to note that the majority of the community is very good at focusing their frustration on the cards, if they have those frustrations, and not on the players that bring them.

I really like this point. Nobody is saying, "I can't believe so-and-so would be such a jerk and take such blatantly broken stuff to a tournament." Instead, everyone seems to understand that players should be expected to take the best lists they can construct, so a lack diversity falls to the cards rather than to the players.

I think it's also important to note that the majority of the community is very good at focusing their frustration on the cards, if they have those frustrations, and not on the players that bring them.

I really like this point. Nobody is saying, "I can't believe so-and-so would be such a jerk and take such blatantly broken stuff to a tournament." Instead, everyone seems to understand that players should be expected to take the best lists they can construct, so a lack diversity falls to the cards rather than to the players.

The intentional draw rage was directed at players though. Players do what it takes to win an event. FFG added it, and you can't blame competitive player for using it.

Zuckus crew says that no ship can evade and negates a serious portion of the entire game. There needs to be some sort of limit.

Actually, all that Zuckuss does is prevent 'oh look, I got lucky on my 3 naked greenns and rolled 3 evades' moments. If you invest in your defense (focus/evade tokens) he becomes way less effective.

Green dice (with focus) have a 5/8 chance, each, of evading a hit. With Zuckuss this goes down to 25/64. That's about a 60% to blank one evade, 37% on two, 22% on three, and a 14% on four. Now, these three Agility ships, how much health do they have? 3? 4? (Brobot saviors: 8) Against a token stack on offense? Not a chance. Why do you think there were so many at world's? Because of how totally fair it was?

Dengar's average damage per attack is 2.4375 (3 reds with Focus and LW). A tocken stacker's average defence is 2.875 (Evade and Focus) BEFORE Autothrusters and Palpatine. Unless the opponent makes mistakes (like shooting back in arc without the needed tokens) Dengar flat-out loses this duel. 3 dice attacks haven't been enough in this game for a long time.

Now consider Zuckuss. The above average defense drops to 2.172 if you ignore Autothrusters and Palpatine. This means that, in average Dengar will get 1 damage in every 4 rounds.

The problem is that most opponents save Soontir or Fenn Rau with Manaroo then don't have an offensive modification because they need the focus for defense. And so will probably still lose the duel against Dengar!

But there is more to it. All the other ships that don't have 0 agility or This kind of action economy, AT and 3-4 agility are massively affected by Zuckuss.

To complain that 0 agility ships are unaffected by Zuckuss however is really a non-argument against him being so good. He costs 1 point and a slot where in 90% of the matchups he will massively influence the game in your favor.

How can you say it's a non-argument? It is The argument. The entire reason Zuckuss will be incredibly good in 90% of your expected battles is because ships with high agility and ridiculous action efficiency have edged out the majority of alternate play styles. The meta is defined by Palp Aces the way it use to be by Fat Falcons and Phantoms, or more recently the wolf pack. Your list can be good against everything else, but if it lacks a direct counter to Palp Aces it's not competitive.

And that's the crux of it, Palp Aces can still beat Dengaroo, it's not even a counter. Aces are still very much the dominate play style, we may see less now, but is it such a bad thing that 60-70% of the list aren't some variation of Palp Aces?

I mean read your own argument. You stated that Soontir or Fenn would lose the duel to Dengar, you do understand that Dengar cost 20 points more then your average loaded ace right? Shouldn't a ship that cost a full 1/5th of my list more then your Ace be able to reliably win in a duel?

Frankly Zuckuss could be 2-3 points and still be good, but it's all subjective to the meta. If a Ghost or B-wing list becomes the meta defining list then suddenly Zuckuss ain't even worth the crew spot let alone the 1 point. Zuckuss is nothing more then efficient anti-ace tech. If aces are still a dominate force then obviously it's not too overpowered as the meta would shift away from aces and to something more reliant on health or straight up firepower as opposed to green based damage mitigation and arc dodging.

I think it's also important to note that the majority of the community is very good at focusing their frustration on the cards, if they have those frustrations, and not on the players that bring them.

I really like this point. Nobody is saying, "I can't believe so-and-so would be such a jerk and take such blatantly broken stuff to a tournament." Instead, everyone seems to understand that players should be expected to take the best lists they can construct, so a lack diversity falls to the cards rather than to the players.

The intentional draw rage was directed at players though. Players do what it takes to win an event. FFG added it, and you can't blame competitive player for using it.

hate the game, baby; not the player

I think it's also important to note that the majority of the community is very good at focusing their frustration on the cards, if they have those frustrations, and not on the players that bring them.

I really like this point. Nobody is saying, "I can't believe so-and-so would be such a jerk and take such blatantly broken stuff to a tournament." Instead, everyone seems to understand that players should be expected to take the best lists they can construct, so a lack diversity falls to the cards rather than to the players.

The intentional draw rage was directed at players though. Players do what it takes to win an event. FFG added it, and you can't blame competitive player for using it.

That's because it was very different from a card. Both players needed to consent for it to happen so there was an moral judgement put on it (whether or not there should have been). The community was also somewhat split on it, with my impression being that most people didn't like the rule but understood while people took it and a vocal minority criticizing those who took it.

Zuckus crew says that no ship can evade and negates a serious portion of the entire game. There needs to be some sort of limit.

Actually, all that Zuckuss does is prevent 'oh look, I got lucky on my 3 naked greenns and rolled 3 evades' moments. If you invest in your defense (focus/evade tokens) he becomes way less effective.

Green dice (with focus) have a 5/8 chance, each, of evading a hit. With Zuckuss this goes down to 25/64. That's about a 60% to blank one evade, 37% on two, 22% on three, and a 14% on four. Now, these three Agility ships, how much health do they have? 3? 4? (Brobot saviors: 8) Against a token stack on offense? Not a chance. Why do you think there were so many at world's? Because of how totally fair it was?

Dengar's average damage per attack is 2.4375 (3 reds with Focus and LW). A tocken stacker's average defence is 2.875 (Evade and Focus) BEFORE Autothrusters and Palpatine. Unless the opponent makes mistakes (like shooting back in arc without the needed tokens) Dengar flat-out loses this duel. 3 dice attacks haven't been enough in this game for a long time.

Now consider Zuckuss. The above average defense drops to 2.172 if you ignore Autothrusters and Palpatine. This means that, in average Dengar will get 1 damage in every 4 rounds.

The problem is that most opponents save Soontir or Fenn Rau with Manaroo then don't have an offensive modification because they need the focus for defense. And so will probably still lose the duel against Dengar!

But there is more to it. All the other ships that don't have 0 agility or This kind of action economy, AT and 3-4 agility are massively affected by Zuckuss.

To complain that 0 agility ships are unaffected by Zuckuss however is really a non-argument against him being so good. He costs 1 point and a slot where in 90% of the matchups he will massively influence the game in your favor.

How can you say it's a non-argument? It is The argument. The entire reason Zuckuss will be incredibly good in 90% of your expected battles is because ships with high agility and ridiculous action efficiency have edged out the majority of alternate play styles. The meta is defined by Palp Aces the way it use to be by Fat Falcons and Phantoms, or more recently the wolf pack. Your list can be good against everything else, but if it lacks a direct counter to Palp Aces it's not competitive.

And that's the crux of it, Palp Aces can still beat Dengaroo, it's not even a counter. Aces are still very much the dominate play style, we may see less now, but is it such a bad thing that 60-70% of the list aren't some variation of Palp Aces?

I mean read your own argument. You stated that Soontir or Fenn would lose the duel to Dengar, you do understand that Dengar cost 20 points more then your average loaded ace right? Shouldn't a ship that cost a full 1/4th of my list more then your Ace be able to reliably win in a duel?

Frankly Zuckuss could be 2-3 points and still be good, but it's all subjective to the meta. If a Ghost or B-wing list becomes the meta defining list then suddenly Zuckuss ain't even worth the crew spot let alone the 1 point. Zuckuss is nothing more then efficient anti-ace tech. If aces are still a dominate force then obviously it's not too overpowered as the meta would shift away from aces and to something more reliant on health or straight up firepower as opposed to green based damage mitigation and arc dodging.

The reason why we did not see any Soontir but rather Defenders on the top tables is that there is, unlike you say an increasing number if things in the game that CAN deal with these green dice danage avoidance machines.

Even Dengaroo runs Feedback array just to be sure.

Black market Slicer Tools

Bombs and mines (with love from Sabine)

Homing missiles.

Autoblasters

And a few more i probably forget...

I think you are invoking an outdated meta here. Classic Palp aces were not played yesterday.

The most Dodgy things that did well were Corran (lacks AT), Fenn Rau (no evade save range 1 for both, and thats whats Dengar likes even more) and Carnor Jax (not Soontirs action economy). But these were actually a rare sight between all the Defenders now!

And Zuckuss is still giving you better chances should you encounter Inquisitors or Soontirs for the cost of 1 point and stress you dont care about.

Against 0 agility ships that you mainly encounter in the Ghost nowadays, he is still useful at R3 or in giving you a point advantage by killing the escorts.

If you really encounter a list where Zuckuss is not useful on Dengar (which just doesn't exist if you are honest) well then he cost 1 point and does not give you any disadvantage!

And to say that he is meta-dependent because there could be a meta where he supposedly would not be good in... Well that's really moot since we are not in such a meta very clearly!

Zuckus crew says that no ship can evade and negates a serious portion of the entire game. There needs to be some sort of limit.

Actually, all that Zuckuss does is prevent 'oh look, I got lucky on my 3 naked greenns and rolled 3 evades' moments. If you invest in your defense (focus/evade tokens) he becomes way less effective.

Green dice (with focus) have a 5/8 chance, each, of evading a hit. With Zuckuss this goes down to 25/64. That's about a 60% to blank one evade, 37% on two, 22% on three, and a 14% on four. Now, these three Agility ships, how much health do they have? 3? 4? (Brobot saviors: 8) Against a token stack on offense? Not a chance. Why do you think there were so many at world's? Because of how totally fair it was?

Dengar's average damage per attack is 2.4375 (3 reds with Focus and LW). A tocken stacker's average defence is 2.875 (Evade and Focus) BEFORE Autothrusters and Palpatine. Unless the opponent makes mistakes (like shooting back in arc without the needed tokens) Dengar flat-out loses this duel. 3 dice attacks haven't been enough in this game for a long time.

Now consider Zuckuss. The above average defense drops to 2.172 if you ignore Autothrusters and Palpatine. This means that, in average Dengar will get 1 damage in every 4 rounds.

I think your reference to palpitine are more indicative how an eight point cheat is even more broken than a one point green dice don't matter.

That's because it was very different from a card. Both players needed to consent for it to happen so there was an moral judgement put on it (whether or not there should have been).

Ethical issue, not moral. (And, BTW, there are actually three players impacted by an ID decision made -- "we're not going to play" -- by two of them. That's what makes it an ethical issue.)

But that aside, you're right: there's a difference between that and using a card, open and available for all players. Zuckuss (and arguably OCR4, and much more tenuously, Manaroo) is a broken card ... but using it is fair .

Breaking the quote chain.

I'm counting Defenders and and Aces in the same archetype. Obviously Defenders have trade offs between the Interceptor Aces but they're both of same ilk when it comes to high agility token stacking. Both run with a Palp mobile more often then not.

The point that you seem to be missing is that despite all this Anti-Ace tech floating around Aces continue to be the dominate factor. There was 7 Dengaroo list, it was the 2d most popular archetype, Palp Aces was 1st with a whooping 27 players. That's a 385% difference in favor of Palp Aces.

Both list made it to the top 16, both list have successfully defeated one another. What's the problem? What's your basis for nerfing Zuckuss but leaving Aces, and more specifically Palpatine, untouched?

I find it slightly annoying that people want to nerf something purely on the basis that *gasp* it can actually beat Palp Aces and not be a bad match up for other list. Especially when it's a close match up and not even a direct counter. God forbid anything be able to actually touch your 3-4 agility ship that has a focus and evade every turn backed by Palpy.

You don't seem to understand that cards like Zuckuss are necessary because of how utterly ridiculous damage mitigation has gotten between high agility token stacking and regen. If my opponent has a almost guaranteed double evade between Palpatine and an evade token before he even rolls his green die you need a way to make the damage go through. Same with rebel regen, if he's recovering 1 shield every turn then I need a way to reliably deal 2 damage to accomplish anything.

And no Zuckuss would not be worth it if Palp Aces didn't utterly dominate the meta, crew is the most valuable spot for scum ships, having a subpar filler is not really an option in most cases. Boba is situationally awesome, only cost 1 point, and the most popular list in the game provides him with the best possible target, yet you don't see him that often do you?

Frankly anti-ace tech is needed, but most of the current options are ineffective, overpriced, or to limited in use against other types of ships. Zuckuss hits a sweet spot, and you want to nerf him purely on the basis that he actually works?

That's because it was very different from a card. Both players needed to consent for it to happen so there was an moral judgement put on it (whether or not there should have been).

Ethical issue, not moral. (And, BTW, there are actually three players impacted by an ID decision made -- "we're not going to play" -- by two of them. That's what makes it an ethical issue.)

But that aside, you're right: there's a difference between that and using a card, open and available for all players. Zuckuss (and arguably OCR4, and much more tenuously, Manaroo) is a broken card ... but using it is fair .

Right, wrong word for me and it's true that more than the two people are affected by the decision.