This has probably been discussed before but I just wanted to know the general opinion on having bring physical upgrade cards.

I get damage cards are needed because of game mechanisms, but physical upgrade cards are imo just a hindrance on the table? They take up so much space.

For casual play we usually just print out Fleetlists and each player gets a copy of each fleet.

That way players can always see exactly how each ship is equipped without having to walk around the table and inspect a bunch of cards.

So what is your argument pro/con physical upgrade cards? And should official trounament allow proxies or not?

One word: MONEY

Official tournaments? Yes.

Casual games? Who cares?

Edit: Arguement - pay the people who made our game so they keep maling it.

Some upgrade card effects ask you to exhaust or discard the card.

Having proxies and printouts of cards shouldn't be a problem: I would rather have another person playing at my FLGS than not. If they plan to go to a super official event (like worlds) there is usually enough support from the community to beg and borrow any cards needed.

I find that upgrade cards aren't really a problem with regard to the table space... they don't seem to take up any more space than the ship cards. Most tables I play on are 4x6 though, to accommodate Warmahordes and 40k, so everything fits nicely in that 6" gap between the mat and the table edge.

If you're at a tournament with proxies, that's a problem. You don't get to disregard rules that make the game fair to everyone, simply because you don't want to support the company that makes this game. I can bet someone is going to complain that this game shouldn't be "play to win", but what competative game isn't pay to win? Check out MTG cards. How angry would someone be when you spend $1000+ on a single deck and your opponent comes in with a proxy deck and spend $0? There are going to be buy in prices to any game.

So no, absolutely not. Proxies sould not be allowed in tournaments. If you need something that badly, ask a friend and borrow a ship or cards. From my understanding, there is no rule that says you must be the purchaser of a ship/card to be allowed to play in the tournament.

In regards to board space, the store should be providing tables large enough to support the play mats and room for your cards.

However, in a casual setting, I'm all for proxies. For one, it let's me see if a list is viable so I can determine if I want to spend money on it. Also, there are a lot of really cool looking 3rd party models which can only be played in a casual game.

For me, outside of Organized Play, it's the wild wild west. I'm happy to play with any insane setup you want. Proxy your cards. Proxy your ships. Proxy your dice. Beg and plead to reroll that attack because Luke Skywalker is too pretty to die. Use homebrew stuff. Use 3D printed ships from the Internet. Use the cripplingly unbalanced narrative scenario you found online. Let's make pew pew sounds and throw dice at each other. That's what games are about.

400 point games per the OP Guidelines are for tournaments and practicing for tournaments. Beyond that, changing anything and everything keeps the game interesting.

Obviously I'm okay with proxies and homebrew...

For me, outside of Organized Play, it's the wild wild west. I'm happy to play with any insane setup you want. Proxy your cards. Proxy your ships. Proxy your dice. Beg and plead to reroll that attack because Luke Skywalker is too pretty to die. Use homebrew stuff. Use 3D printed ships from the Internet. Use the cripplingly unbalanced narrative scenario you found online. Let's make pew pew sounds and throw dice at each other. That's what games are about.

400 point games per the OP Guidelines are for tournaments and practicing for tournaments. Beyond that, changing anything and everything keeps the game interesting.

I hate Gifs, but I've got no other way to express myself on this'n.

Proxies! Only as much where you can.

It will also encourage ffg to focus more on making great ship expansions worth buying more of than great upgrades exclusive to one expansion.

Generally proxies are fine in casual play, but respect your opponent. It's not really fair to rage at your opponent if they prefer to play by the rules.

In friendly games, I don't usually take the time to browse my entire collection and pick the upgrade cards I need, just printing the list is more than enough for me.

In tournaments, of course, things change drastically: while I do tolerate the occasional missing upgrade (as long as it's a single one, a couple tops), I know people that don't.

Thank you all for the feedback.

Personally I like to limit the amount of cards I need to manage in Armada to a minimum as it is a

miniature game not a cardgame.

But it is interesting that most of the folks here have no problem with the official stance on proxies.

@Drasnighta: That is a nice frame, is it self made?

It woudl be nice if FFG supplied a solution like that for presenting shipcards and upgrades.

Add some flavor with Imperial / Rebel logos and you might even get me to like physical cards :-)

Theoretically having to buy ships just for the uprade cards gives it a bit of a sour aftertaste though.

You can buy cards on ebay. But I always find having the ships is useful for running really weird things.

@Drasnighta: That is a nice frame, is it self made?

I sell them.

If I'm lucky, I should be able to have some for sale at Worlds, too.

Thank you all for the feedback.

Personally I like to limit the amount of cards I need to manage in Armada to a minimum as it is a

miniature game not a cardgame.

But it is interesting that most of the folks here have no problem with the official stance on proxies.

@Drasnighta: That is a nice frame, is it self made?

It woudl be nice if FFG supplied a solution like that for presenting shipcards and upgrades.

Add some flavor with Imperial / Rebel logos and you might even get me to like physical cards :-)

Theoretically having to buy ships just for the uprade cards gives it a bit of a sour aftertaste though.

Alternative idea you might like to try when proxying.

If your ship cards are sleeved, cut up some post-its into small strips(or whatever length/style you want) and write the upgrade names on them(can acronym them to be even smaller), then stick em to your ship card!

If you play certain upgrades on your ships frequently you can leave those there on the card all ready to take out and play

Initially i thought of tokens(Defense tokens? Upgrade tokens!), but those like going all over as well.

There's no moral reason why you should have to pay for upgrade cards. A printed roster is vastly easier to manage for everyone involved, IMO, and someone isn't more deserving of a win if they spent more cash than their opponent.

BUT, tournaments are run exclusively to FFGs rules. And their rules state you need the cards. So if you want to play tournaments, then you need the cards. I don't like it, but it is the way it is. For casual play though, printed rosters all day, every day.

I'm not dropping fifty bucks on a ship I'll never fly in a faction I never run for two cards that are due to be rereleased as soon as FFG gets off its ass and SHIPS WAVE V!!!

Also having the text on how the card works... I know I refer back to the cards all of the time.

I know in Xwing I just use the uk squad builder printed lists, but I also fly the same ships/upgrades and I hate sorting through everything and putting them back in order...

I photo copy each ship and its up grade cards on a sheet of card stock for play.

so much faster set up and play.

I'm also bringing both sides of the battle to the game for 2 to 4 players.

Proxies for casual games not for tournaments

Here's my position on the whole thing: when I first got into Armada, I didn't even think to wonder if this was a good or a bad thing, because my background is in card games. This is a silly question to even ask in a card game: "if I didn't buy the pieces I need to play this game and just made them myself, is it cool if I show up to compete with you guys for prizes that your purchases funded?" You'd be laughed out of the store for even asking.

It's not like you're getting nothing out of buying ships you don't think you'll ever play. Because I've been forced to buy ships that I wouldn't otherwise have bought just for the cards, the barrier for entry has been significantly lowered for me to play all kinds of fleets that I would never have otherwise tried, leading to a much richer gaming experience than the three-AF fleet I would otherwise have locked myself into. I play almost exclusively Rebels, but I bought a few Raiders specifically for SW-7's for my SW90 swarm fleet. But then because I have them, I've tried a couple of different lists that required multiple Raiders on the table, and had a lot of fun because of it.

But mostly, I think it's important to support (financially) the people who enable you to do the things you do, so that they can keep enabling you to do those things. I buy my Armada stuff almost entirely at the B&M stores where I play so that they can stay open and I can keep playing there; I buy the pieces of the game I want to play so that the producers can keep designing and manufacturing it and I can keep playing it.

Now, I'm totally fine with proxies in casual games. I've been using them myself while looking for anybody willing to trade Skilled First Officers to me .

In competitive play, though, there is no place for proxies.

Borrow stuff if you must/can, otherwise you can buy the ship like everybody else did or just bring something different. One of the best things about this game is that there is no card or combo that you have to have to win. And very few ships don't come with upgrades that make them at least competitive, if not top-tier (CR90A's lacking the subsequently-released TRCs being the notable exception).

@Drasnighta: That is a nice frame, is it self made?

I sell them.

If I'm lucky, I should be able to have some for sale at Worlds, too.

Those are pretty nice. I have some from a different outfit, but they're not as nice IMO.

How much do you charge for yours? (Just in case I'm able to sell mine off to a friend, and I want to upgrade.) Feel free to PM me, in case you don't want to discuss that publicly.

At any rate, I'm a big fan of using those command decks. They do help move stuff around.

But in regard to proxies, I'm with the consensus opinion of anything-goes casual, firm on tournaments. There's also the part where you can simply borrow missing components from friends, if they're not using them. That's my plan for an epic X-Wing tournament happening tomorrow.

There's no moral reason why you should have to pay for upgrade cards. A printed roster is vastly easier to manage for everyone involved, IMO, and someone isn't more deserving of a win if they spent more cash than their opponent.

BUT, tournaments are run exclusively to FFGs rules. And their rules state you need the cards. So if you want to play tournaments, then you need the cards. I don't like it, but it is the way it is. For casual play though, printed rosters all day, every day.

I understand this frustration from playing a ton of MTG. But if you play the same deck/fleet that are all proxies against someone who spent hundreds of dollars, you are invalidating their investment in the game. What was the point of them spending so much when they could just print the stuff off? And just because you spend more, doesn't mean you will win, and it doesn't mean you should win. You don't need to buy 6 TRC90s and 8 YT-2400 to win. This game is balanced enough you can construct a viable fleet with a 1 of every expansion, and still compete against those super niche, expensive fleets that someone brought to the tournament.

I think one moral reason to not print proxies is to support FFG and your FLGS so you have a game to play and a place to play at.

On a side note, I 100% agree with Ard. It's nice just having those extra ships for some crazy fleet builds.