I agree with the latest range regarding snipe, as I was about to point the ranges being closest to closest.

I'll toss in my view on FC and Howl

FC: Doesn't work, because the Snipe specifies that AS armament to use. Like counter on a Raider, it still goes by what the keyword says, instead of any AS dice.

To use an example: FC would be equivalent to adding a 3rd black (for the sake of argument) die to the Raider 1, and adding QLT to it. Which gives it counter 1. If attacked, it still only gets that counter 1, with a blue die regardless of it's normal anti-squadron armament.

Howlrunner: Does work, because it's a dice modification after the fact.

The only reason FC doesn't work on counter is because counter is never triggered during a squadron's/ship's activation.

Edit: not so clearly put, below is better.

I'm with Dras' take on the FC point: the card calls it an anti-squadron armament, FC adds to anti-squadron armament, done and done.

The counter precedent actually indicates that it DOES apply, because counter + Howlrunner and Dengar has already demonstrated that the AS armament that is explicitly specified in the card text can still be modified by external effects. The only reason FC doesn't apply to counter is the timing: you never counter while being activated, so it's never relevant.

Howlrunner clearly applies to it too, but I don't see much disagreement on that point.

i'm For

For - Flight Controllers adds to AS. Snipe is AS

what about an snipe squad attacking someone that is more than distance 1 away and has counter ? i would think i could counter them because ..... wait for it, i don't measure range on a counter attack i just get to roll my counter dice regardless... that's IMO.

what about an snipe squad attacking someone that is more than distance 1 away and has counter ? i would think i could counter them because ..... wait for it, i don't measure range on a counter attack i just get to roll my counter dice regardless... that's IMO.

Except, y'know, Snipe ignores Counter.

ugh long work day.... LOL

I really hope FC does work with snipe (I'm dubious on intent, but with RAW it's hard to disagree with the logic), due to E-wings. With the rebels getting the only (that we know of) access to non-unique snipe squadrons I'd love a way to buff them even more!

There's one more thing about snipe I'm not sure about, sorry to derail the thread again from the original discussion (on the matter: I think Howlrunner works 100%, but for FC, with snipe being different from "normal" attack dices, I'm on the not working boat. Not really sure TBH.).

My doubt regards the interaction between shooting range and escort: let's say Saber squadron is at distance 2 (and beyond distance 1) from Jan Ors and an X wing too. Technically, not being engaged with the X, can it shoot directly to Jan Ors?

This only gets trickier if the X is at distance 1: now Saber and the X are engaged, but Jan Ors isn't. Would the engagement prevent Saber from shooting Jan Ors?

While typing this down, I think I figured it out: my take would be that in scenario 1 I'm free to shoot to Jan, not being engaged with the X, and in scenario 2, as sniping is just another form of attacking, I'll have to shoot the X.

Anyway, the interesting part is that if my interpretation is correct, Snipe can sort of ... snipe (!) even escort protected squads under the right circumstances.

What does the Escort rule say?

Is not anti squadron battery anti squadron battery?

Is speed not speed? Yet "ship's [or current] speed" is not the same as "temporary speed" or even "maneuver's speed". The new FAQ made it clear. I think there's a good case for applying the same logic here.

Does it say anywhere it has to be printed with dice icons?

No, it says "the antisquadron armament of [the] squadron [...] is increased by 1 blue die". But my point is that Snipe ignores "the antisquadron armament of the squadron" and specifies an independent, particular AS value to be used for that attack. This value can be different from the squadron's AS value (e.g. E-wing) or it can be equal (Saber Squadron), but it's distinct , so that they are not interlinked and an effect that affects one need not affect the other.

Imagine for a second that Snipe, or an equivalent ability, said that the squadron attacks using another squadron's AS value (bear with me). For example:

" Assist: While attacking a squadron engaged with another friendly squadron, you can attack using that friendly squadron's anti-squadron armament."

It's still you making the attack, but it's fairly clear (to me at least) that FC would not apply as you're definitely not using your own AS value (which gets a +1) but somebody else's (which doesn't). And, ultimately, each attack has its own AS value, which is usually that of the squadron but not necessarily - see e.g. Counter and Snipe. As worded FC affects only the squadron's (printed) AS value, not necessarily the AS value of all attacks made by the squadron .

As a corollary, I would even argue that, even without the "until the end of its activation" caveat, FC would still not apply to Counter. Although it would certainly be a matter for confusion and intense debate.

Yes. It's a distinct value. But still anti squadron battery. And thus affected by FC. As indicated by both card texts.

Yes. It's a distinct value. But still anti squadron battery. And thus affected by FC. As indicated by both card texts.

Well, in the absence of arguments addressing my concerns (particularly the "of the squadron" qualifier) I can only agree to disagree.

FC affects anti squadron until end of activation

Add happy emoticon to taste

I still think that FC just increases the AS box by one. It doesn't turn "Snipe 4" into "Snipe 5" but I guess we're going to have to wait for the FAQ to see.

Also I thought that when you are measuring ranges, it is closest point to closest point, so even if part of a squadron was over the 1 range when measured, the target is still at 1 and Snipe doesn't work as it doesn't have 1 in its range band. All of the squadron would need to be beyond 1 and at 2

Dras, I understand what you mean if part of squadron is at 2. Just a bit unsure atm

(just using bold to highlight FFG terms)

You're onto something, but with the language as it is closest point doesn't come into play when determining at/within.

◊ At: If any portion of a hull zone, base, or token is inside a specified band, that component is at that band.

So in Dras example the attack range, measured from closest point to closest point, is undoubtedly 1, but the squadron is both at range 1 and at range 2... And you get to choose to resolve a snipe attack at range 2.

I do agree it feels kinda loopholey...

How is it loopholey?

You're obviously able to be both at 1 and 2, a fact the devs must have taken into account, no?

So Snipe works - until your too close to be anything but at 1.

Is not anti squadron battery anti squadron battery?

Is speed not speed? Yet "ship's [or current] speed" is not the same as "temporary speed" or even "maneuver's speed". The new FAQ made it clear. I think there's a good case for applying the same logic here.

Does it say anywhere it has to be printed with dice icons?

No, it says "the antisquadron armament of [the] squadron [...] is increased by 1 blue die". But my point is that Snipe ignores "the antisquadron armament of the squadron" and specifies an independent, particular AS value to be used for that attack. This value can be different from the squadron's AS value (e.g. E-wing) or it can be equal (Saber Squadron), but it's distinct , so that they are not interlinked and an effect that affects one need not affect the other.

Imagine for a second that Snipe, or an equivalent ability, said that the squadron attacks using another squadron's AS value (bear with me). For example:

" Assist: While attacking a squadron engaged with another friendly squadron, you can attack using that friendly squadron's anti-squadron armament."

It's still you making the attack, but it's fairly clear (to me at least) that FC would not apply as you're definitely not using your own AS value (which gets a +1) but somebody else's (which doesn't). And, ultimately, each attack has its own AS value, which is usually that of the squadron but not necessarily - see e.g. Counter and Snipe. As worded FC affects only the squadron's (printed) AS value, not necessarily the AS value of all attacks made by the squadron .

As a corollary, I would even argue that, even without the "until the end of its activation" caveat, FC would still not apply to Counter. Although it would certainly be a matter for confusion and intense debate.

You make a good point, but I think it works against you. Speed is speed is speed, but temporary speed is different from speed, because speed is what your speed dial shows. The difference with FC is it says "The anti-squadron armament of each squadron that you activate is increased by 1 blue die until the end of its activation." It does not say " the antisquadron armament of [the] squadron [...] is increased by 1 blue die".

And for Snipe, you use an anti-squad armament that the ability gives you. Therefore, all you key word "anti-squad armament" are increased by 1 blue die. Your example of using another squads armament is moot because FC says you get 1 blue die until the end of its activation. You can't have 2 activated squads at the same time because you fully complete one activation and move onto another. I would argue if FC said "... until the end of the round." you would get another die on a counter because it is an anti-squad armament of X.

FC does not distinguish between any anti-squadron armaments and is not exclusive to the value in the box.

We have seen something similar to this before with Motti and flotillas. The argument was flotillas do not benefit from Motti because they are not a small ship, they are a flotilla. However, FFG directly said flotillas are small ships and follow all the same rules of ships, with the exception of their flotilla rule.

This argument follows the same premise. Much like Motti increases 1 hull to flotillas, FC will increase the anti-squad armament of all types by 1, simply because they have the same key words.

Also I thought that when you are measuring ranges, it is closest point to closest point, so even if part of a squadron was over the 1 range when measured, the target is still at 1 and Snipe doesn't work as it doesn't have 1 in its range band. All of the squadron would need to be beyond 1 and at 2

Dras, I understand what you mean if part of squadron is at 2. Just a bit unsure atm

(just using bold to highlight FFG terms)

You're onto something, but with the language as it is closest point doesn't come into play when determining at/within.

◊ At: If any portion of a hull zone, base, or token is inside a specified band, that component is at that band.

So in Dras example the attack range, measured from closest point to closest point, is undoubtedly 1, but the squadron is both at range 1 and at range 2... And you get to choose to resolve a snipe attack at range 2.

I do agree it feels kinda loopholey...

How is it loopholey?

You're obviously able to be both at 1 and 2, a fact the devs must have taken into account, no?

So Snipe works - until your too close to be anything but at 1.

No, no, no, no, no.

If you are measuring attack range TO or FROM a squadron... Then your "Target" is a POINT. That POINT is the Closest POINT of the enemy Squadron...

Because you are dealing with a POINT measurement, then you are Distinctly in 3 of Areas.......

That POINT is in the Area of the Distance Ruler that says "1". THIS MEANS YOU ARE IN ENGAGEMENT RANGE AND DISTANCE 1.

That POINT is in the Area of the Distance Rules that says "2". THIS MEANS YOU ARE IN SNIPE RANGE AND DISTANCE 2.

That POINT is DIRECTLY ON TOP OF THE LINE THAT SAYS "1" or "2"... THIS MEANS YOU ARE COUNTED AS BEING IN THE BAND - SO IF YOU ARE ON THE 1 LINE, YOU ARE AT 1. IF YOU ARE ON THE 2 LINE, YOU ARE AT 2.....

Because Snipe IS AN ATTACK. We are measuring ATTACK RANGE.

We don't need to measure TO or FROM anything else but that POint...

The BASE ITSELF May be at Range 1 or 2. But 99.9999999% of the Base means DIDDLY-SQUAT when it comes to Measuring ATTACK RANGE.

\

If the Tiniest Sliver of your Enemy Base is at Distance 1, but the vast majority is at Distance 2.... TOO BAD. You are measuring to the Closest Point of their Base, and Geometrically Speaking, the closest part of the base in that circumstance IS AT DISTANCE 1. You don't get to Ignore It to Shoot at the Back of the Base!

Man, the hardest part about being Wrong? Convincing people you actually are wrong and changing the argument.... >.>

That is true. Closest point. So if your base crosses the 1 circle you are not going to be able to snipe.

I sense another use for fct

I still think that FC just increases the AS box by one. It doesn't turn "Snipe 4" into "Snipe 5" but I guess we're going to have to wait for the FAQ to see.

Where does the FC card mention an Anti Squadron "box"?

Escort prevents squadrons you are engaged with shooting non-escort units.

So looks like you have to shoot the escort, rather than snipe the non-escort.

I dont see why you cannot snipe a squad at range 2" if there is a squad within range 1". Nothing on the snipe keyword says you cannot.

I dont see why you cannot snipe a squad at range 2" if there is a squad within range 1". Nothing on the snipe keyword says you cannot.

No, but Engagement Rules, perhaps (Italic emphasis mine):

Engagement

While a squadron is at distance 1 of one or more enemy squadrons, it is engaged with all of those enemy squadrons.

• An engaged squadron cannot move.

• When a squadron attacks, it must attack an engaged squadron if possible rather than an enemy ship.

I dont see why you cannot snipe a squad at range 2" if there is a squad within range 1". Nothing on the snipe keyword says you cannot.

No, but Engagement Rules, perhaps (Italic emphasis mine):

Engagement

While a squadron is at distance 1 of one or more enemy squadrons, it is engaged with all of those enemy squadrons.

• An engaged squadron cannot move.

• When a squadron attacks, it must attack an engaged squadron if possible rather than an enemy ship.

And On top of that, even if your Range 2 Target is Escort, that matters not, as Escort is only applicable when engaged:

• H Escort: Squadrons you are engaged with cannot attack squadrons that lack escort unless performing a counter attack.