So Snipe says you attack a squad at distance 2 of you. Meaning you only have between range 1 and 2 to choose a target? And you can't use Snipe on a squad at range 1 in an effort to avoid Counter.

No, you could theoretically snipe someone right next to you.

◊ At: If any portion of a hull zone, base, or token is inside a specified band, that component is at that band

Again, this is matter of Saber Squadron having the same dice for both...

With an E-Wing, if the Snipe is lesser than your baseline, that's a choice to make...

EDIT:

Second Thoughts on this one...

Do we have anything that utilises this:

◊ Minimum–Maximum: This abbreviation encompasses the minimum band, maximum band, and all bands in-between, such as “distance 1–4.”

Without incorporating Distance 1 ?

Because I think, if you assume that Distance 2 indeed, has distance 1 included, then Minimum-Maximum is irrelevant....

SO , I must consider that "At Distance 2" does not include anything at "Distance 1".

So Snipe says you attack a squad at distance 2 of you. Meaning you only have between range 1 and 2 to choose a target? And you can't use Snipe on a squad at range 1 in an effort to avoid Counter.

No, you could theoretically snipe someone right next to you.

Again, this is matter of Saber Squadron having the same dice for both...

With an E-Wing, if the Snipe is lesser than your baseline, that's a choice to make...

Typically FFG will write a range for abilities, like Toryn Farr or BCC so that's why I ask. Snipe doesn't have a range, and if it can only be used at range 2 means you can counter it with a squad that has counter.

So Snipe says you attack a squad at distance 2 of you. Meaning you only have between range 1 and 2 to choose a target? And you can't use Snipe on a squad at range 1 in an effort to avoid Counter.

No, you could theoretically snipe someone right next to you.

Again, this is matter of Saber Squadron having the same dice for both...

With an E-Wing, if the Snipe is lesser than your baseline, that's a choice to make...

Typically FFG will write a range for abilities, like Toryn Farr or BCC so that's why I ask. Snipe doesn't have a range, and if it can only be used at range 2 means you can counter it with a squad that has counter.

Check Mah Edit, Dude

So Snipe says you attack a squad at distance 2 of you. Meaning you only have between range 1 and 2 to choose a target? And you can't use Snipe on a squad at range 1 in an effort to avoid Counter.

No, you could theoretically snipe someone right next to you.

Again, this is matter of Saber Squadron having the same dice for both...

With an E-Wing, if the Snipe is lesser than your baseline, that's a choice to make...

Typically FFG will write a range for abilities, like Toryn Farr or BCC so that's why I ask. Snipe doesn't have a range, and if it can only be used at range 2 means you can counter it with a squad that has counter.

Check Mah Edit, Dude

I never catch your edits because it never updates the page...

Tis why I'm reminding you

So Snipe says you attack a squad at distance 2 of you. Meaning you only have between range 1 and 2 to choose a target? And you can't use Snipe on a squad at range 1 in an effort to avoid Counter.

Am I reading and thinking this correctly? Anyone else notice this distinction?

My understanding is that you can snipe as long as some portion of the base is outside of range 1. So with the correct positioning (as long as you're not within range 1) you can engage the squad and snipe it at the same time.

Still, if you have just a slice of the base at distance 2 and the rest at distance 1, couldn't you still snipe?

edit: looks like I was... sniped!

So Snipe says you attack a squad at distance 2 of you. Meaning you only have between range 1 and 2 to choose a target? And you can't use Snipe on a squad at range 1 in an effort to avoid Counter.

Am I reading and thinking this correctly? Anyone else notice this distinction?

My understanding is that you can snipe as long as some portion of the base is outside of range 1. So with the correct positioning (as long as you're not within range 1) you can engage the squad and snipe it at the same time.

Yes, if any portion - even the tiniest sliver of the far edge of the base is within the Distance 2 band, you are "at" distance 2.

You are also "at" distance 1. but that's irrelevant.

As long, as you said, you are not "withing" (which is defined as "completely within") range 1, you're gold.

So to clarify, if we take these steps

Measure range to target

Is target within Range 1 (Engagement range)

If yes then use standard anti-squadron armaments

If no, is it within Range 2.

If yes then use Snipe.

is this what we are agreeing on?

On the overall discussion, yes Howlrunner works with Snipe, but unsure about about Flight Controllers.

My gut feeling is when it gets FAQ is it wont, but if it does work with Snipe, E-Wings maybe be powerful

So to clarify, if we take these steps

Measure range to target

Is target within Range 1 (Engagement range)

If yes then use standard anti-squadron armaments

If no, is it within Range 2.

If yes then use Snipe.

is this what we are agreeing on?

On the overall discussion, yes Howlrunner works with Snipe, but unsure about about Flight Controllers.

My gut feeling is when it gets FAQ is it wont, but if it does work with Snipe, E-Wings maybe be powerful

Not Exactly.

"At" and "Within" are very strict defined terms in the Rulebook, and we thusly cannot use them as we would in regular English...

If your target is within Distance 1, then you will not be able to use Snipe. As you are not 'at' distance 2.

If your target is within Distance 2, then you can only use Snipe. As you are not at Distance 1 of the Target. (Because we are defined as being completely within Distance 2, and not being within Distance 1-2, so any part of Distance 1 is not within Distance 2)....

If your target is at Distance 2, and consequently, a bit further away, so it is also at Distance 3, you can Snipe the Target.

If your target is at Distance 1, and at Distance 2, then you would have a choice of Standard or Snipe...

This is irrelevant in the case of Scimitar (as the Snipe is clearly better)... But if you have the E-Wing with a Snipe value lower than its base armament, it presents a choice: Lower Armament and ignore Counter... Or take the counter and the more powerful shot....

Remember:

"AT" = "Any Portion of the Base, Hull Zone or Token is at...."

"Within" = "The Entire base, Hull Zone or Token is Within..."

Sorry, I was using English and not FFG terms.

Was just re-reading Reference Guide as you posted

I'm (fairly) firmly in the 'No' camp for FC.

It's just like the whole Engine Techs issue: the ship has a speed, the maneuver has another, and an effect modifying the ship's speed has no bearing on the maneuver.

The same logic applies here: the squadron's AS armament is increased by 1, but the attack is made with a different AS armament (the ability's, not the squadron's), hence no +1.

Fully agree about Howlrunner, though.

So to clarify, if we take these steps

Measure range to target

Is target AT Range 1 (Engagement range)

If yes then use standard anti-squadron armaments

If no, is it AT Range 2.

If yes then use Snipe.

is this what we are agreeing on?

On the overall discussion, yes Howlrunner works with Snipe, but unsure about about Flight Controllers.

My gut feeling is when it gets FAQ is it wont, but if it does work with Snipe, E-Wings maybe be powerful

Also I thought that when you are measuring ranges, it is closest point to closest point, so even if part of a squadron was over the 1 range when measured, the target is still at 1 and Snipe doesn't work as it doesn't have 1 in its range band. All of the squadron would need to be beyond 1 and at 2

Dras, I understand what you mean if part of squadron is at 2. Just a bit unsure atm

(just using bold to highlight FFG terms)

It's just like the whole Engine Techs issue: the ship has a speed, the maneuver has another, and an effect modifying the ship's speed has no bearing on the maneuver.

It does though. G8 affects the ship's speed and works on the ET maneuver, as the FAQ settled.

The Engine tech issue, which I remember all too well, is that they've cornered themselves into an ambiguous use of speed, ship's speed, and current speed. My gut says they only ruled TCM as not affecting ET speed to try and maintain consistency because the card has "current ship speed" written on it. There's no other good reason it shouldn't, as the G8 ruling seems to show.

In our current predicament, anti-squadron armament and attack surely are the same words, so I'm not sure why FC wouldn't work. Snipe just tells you to pick a different value for your squadron's anti-squadron armament to resolve the attack, FC says you can add a die to that AS armament.

I'm (fairly) firmly in the 'No' camp for FC.It's just like the whole Engine Techs issue: the ship has a speed, the maneuver has another, and an effect modifying the ship's speed has no bearing on the maneuver.The same logic applies here: the squadron's AS armament is increased by 1, but the attack is made with a different AS armament (the ability's, not the squadron's), hence no +1.Fully agree about Howlrunner, though.

But why (firmly) in that camp?

Is not anti squadron battery anti squadron battery?

Does it say anywhere it has to be printed with dice icons?

Also I thought that when you are measuring ranges, it is closest point to closest point, so even if part of a squadron was over the 1 range when measured, the target is still at 1 and Snipe doesn't work as it doesn't have 1 in its range band. All of the squadron would need to be beyond 1 and at 2

Dras, I understand what you mean if part of squadron is at 2. Just a bit unsure atm

(just using bold to highlight FFG terms)

You're onto something, but with the language as it is closest point doesn't come into play when determining at/within.

◊ At: If any portion of a hull zone, base, or token is inside a specified band, that component is at that band.

So in Dras example the attack range, measured from closest point to closest point, is undoubtedly 1, but the squadron is both at range 1 and at range 2... And you get to choose to resolve a snipe attack at range 2.

I do agree it feels kinda loopholey...

No, you're right!

I completely forgot the Targeting Caveat for Squadrons.

The point you measure to IS the Closest Point

So that Point, adn that point ONLY will Determine if you are at Distance 1 or Distance 2.

Disregard me, and GOOD CATCH .

You don't always measure to closest point, as is the case when a closer part of the squad base is in another arc and you measure within inside firing arc (or am I geometrically impaired?)

Part of the base is at 2, which is the check we're parsing for, so why not measure to closest point within inside distance band 2 for a Snipe?

I'm sorry.

You don't always measure to closest point, as is the case when a closer part of the squad base is in another arc and you measure within inside firing arc (or am I geometrically impaired?)

Part of the base is at 2, which is the check we're parsing for, so why not measure to closest point within inside distance band 2 for a Snipe?

I'm sorry.

Because Snipe is a Squadron Keyword

And thus, Firing Arc is irrelevant?

The point you measure from, for you, is the closest point of your base to them.

The point you measure to, for you, is the closest point of their base to you...

I'm pretty sure Snipe works similar to the normal range 1 attack. The squad can be fully within range 1, or just a sliver of its base within range 1 on a normal attack. Snipe essentially changes "at range 1" to "beyond range 1" but still within range 2, if that makes sense.

It is really hard to talk about this without visuals. Let me take some pics.

It won't matter, for this line (which I had forgotten, and is now indelibly burned back: )


To measure attack range to or from a squadron, measure to or from the closest point of the squadron’s base.

The Majority of the Squadron base being at Distance 2 is completely irrelevent... if the closest point is at Distance 1..... Its a Distance 1 Shot.

You indeed, never even measure to any other point of the squadron base on the attack, so you never verify its at Distance 2, even!

Soooooo

Here we are at range 1, so you can use a normal attack, but not Snipe.

Here we are beyond range 1, and within range 2. I think we can still Snipe?

Here we are at range 2, and we can Snipe.

Don't think of the base itself.

Restrict your view to a Point.

The single Point, that is the Closest point of the Enemy Base.

Where is it.

Is it anywhere along the ruler distance from the end to the 1? Its a Standard Shot.

Is it anywhere along the ruler distance further than the 1, but closer than the 2? Snipe.

My analogy was poor, but I was playing devil's advocate anyway, it would be weird if it worked that way.

And I just found the even more relevant RRG bit (I guess range vs distance was bugging me):

• When measuring non-attack range or distance between two components, measure from the closest point of the first component to the closest point of the second component.

So a component can't be at distance 1 and at distance 2, even though the language for "at" might have let us think otherwise.

So now we have worked out the range Snipe works at (we think, but are probably correct) and that Howlrunner works with Sabre Squadron because of Swarm, we can get back to the stickypoint of Flight Controllers

For - Flight Controllers adds to AS. Snipe is AS

Against - Snipe is an ability that gives it the effect of AS. Flight Controllers only affects the dice in AS box, not abilities

I'm paraphrasing but think that basically sums up the two points of view

Not trying to sit on the fence (though I am), my mind says FC work with Snipe, my gut feeling after its been FAQ (or Wave V reveal) is it wont. At least one part of me will be right