Shien Expert is my absolute favorite Saber Form Specialization, but I am having a little trouble figuring out how to optimize my use of the Supreme Reflect talent.

For those who don't know (or don't have their book handy) the talent reads, "If the user did not make a combat check during previous turn, may suffer 1 strain to use Reflect." The obvious advantage to this is the reduction of strain drain, but what should my character be doing during a combat encounter if not making combat checks?

I like the idea of trying not to actively run into a mob of bad guys and mercilessly hacking them to pieces--something the raw damage of a lightsaber clearly favors--and instead taking a more passive approach in a very Jedi fashion of protecting myself and allies from laser fire... I just do not know what I would be doing otherwise.

So come on fellow skill monkeys, what are some clever ways to use non-combat skills/abilities in combat that could still help the group drop the baddies?

Dodge or Side Step, a Force power like Battle Meditation, Heal, or Protect. Can be a tactical thing, as well, voluntarily giving up an action to wait for it.

If the player buys the talent then I want to find uses for it so they can do their cool stuff. I'd personally make NPCs shoot the guy with the lightsaber more and get frustrated that he's just reflecting shots left and right. Might also give that player a chance to use Improved Reflect and send some blaster bolts back at the NPCs.

Maneuver to activate Side Step, then convert your Action to change Range bands as needed to either keep yourself at Medium Range or keep yourself within cover (assuming you don't have ranged defense from armor or gear already). Staying at Medium Range means attacks against you are 1 red and 1 purple at the very least, and being in cover increases the chances of your opponent generating the three threat you need to trigger Improved Reflect.

I've got a player in an on-hiatus FaD game that's a Guardian/Soresu Defender that's looking to deep into Shien Expert for the Supreme Reflect, with the intention of using Defensive Circle as his Action each round, hopefully netting himself better ranged defense and thus better odds of getting Improved Reflect to trigger. Yes, Defensive Circle is a Lightsaber check, but it's not a combat check, so it counts. He's gonna have a lot of ranks in Reflect (and Parry) by the time he's done, so he pretty much will be a tank in terms of avoiding damage... which is what Soresu is all about to begin with.

They're not perfect strategies, but then again there's not really any "perfect strategies" in this system to begin with.

Maneuver to activate Side Step, then convert your Action to change Range bands as needed to either keep yourself at Medium Range or keep yourself within cover (assuming you don't have ranged defense from armor or gear already). Staying at Medium Range means attacks against you are 1 red and 1 purple at the very least, and being in cover increases the chances of your opponent generating the three threat you need to trigger Improved Reflect.

I've got a player in an on-hiatus FaD game that's a Guardian/Soresu Defender that's looking to deep into Shien Expert for the Supreme Reflect, with the intention of using Defensive Circle as his Action each round, hopefully netting himself better ranged defense and thus better odds of getting Improved Reflect to trigger. Yes, Defensive Circle is a Lightsaber check, but it's not a combat check, so it counts. He's gonna have a lot of ranks in Reflect (and Parry) by the time he's done, so he pretty much will be a tank in terms of avoiding damage... which is what Soresu is all about to begin with.

They're not perfect strategies, but then again there's not really any "perfect strategies" in this system to begin with.

You know, I've come to a similar conclusion myself, but it is frustrating how the game can be wildly technical and simplistic at the same time. It almost encourages/requires GMs to take matters into their own hands to fill in the blanks. I generally do not like to encourage the development of House Rules, but I would not necessarily have a problem with a player asking me to "take cover" behind their lightsaber for as long as they didn't move it to attack, particularly is they have a couple upgrades purchased for the skill.

The lack of detailed rules instruction also requires GMs to make sure they are thinking tactically about a battle, and about how the enemy NPCs are going about choosing targets. For example if my saber-toting Force sensitive PC wants to "protect" his fellow PCs or a group of innocent NPC bystanders, he could simply stand between them, forcing the enemies to either go through him or re-position themselves. As a GM in this situation I would 'reward' the PC by having the enemies attack him instead of just trying to shoot the people they were going for anyway. The rules do not say I have to do this, but it would be crummy roleplaying if I did not try to accommodate the intentions of my players. Perhaps if the PC is thwarting an assassination attempt, he could make an opposed Lightsaber vs. Discipline check to intimidate a character into attacking them, breaking their concentration by waving a shiny blade of death around (maybe spend extra advantage to generate threat on the attack--improved reflect? yes please!).

I know stuff like that sometimes comes dangerously close to 'game breaking' or serving up a big block of cheese, but I feel like so much effort is put into the narrative essence of this game that it would be a shame not to try to encourage players to be creative with their skills. I love this system but I feel at its very foundation the rules require a bit more support from those playing it compared to other systems on the market, which is honestly best exhibited in the "narrative dice" that it is built on.

thoughts? I know I get a bit intense, but this is what happens when a GM spends too much time without a group... they spend too much time thinking =P

Edit: changed proposed skill check from opposed Lightsaber vs. Vigilance to Lightsaber vs. Discipline cause that made more sense to me.

The lack of detailed rules instruction also requires GMs to make sure they are thinking tactically about a battle, and about how the enemy NPCs are going about choosing targets.

Outside of computer based MMOs and such with integrated "invisible" Aggro systems isn't this pretty much every RPG out there? I mean every system has things like the Bodyguard talent, or Marks, ect that can specifically affect a target to encourage or discourage a set of allies to attack or not attack a specific character over another. But I'm not aware of any system that, outside of those special effects or a canned adventure/encounter, manages things like how a set of opponents should act or select targets.

When a player does something to look dangerous, or look combat-ineffective should the GM not be the one to make the call on how that affects the target prioritization of the opposition? When setting up an encounter should the GM not layout tactics and general expected behavior of the NPCs?

How is this any different than laying out when you design the dungeon room that the Hobgoblins will attack the Wizard first by rushing him with their longswords unless one of the other players distracts them or prevents their movement?

The lack of detailed rules instruction also requires GMs to make sure they are thinking tactically about a battle, and about how the enemy NPCs are going about choosing targets.

Outside of computer based MMOs and such with integrated "invisible" Aggro systems isn't this pretty much every RPG out there? I mean every system has things like the Bodyguard talent, or Marks, ect that can specifically affect a target to encourage or discourage a set of allies to attack or not attack a specific character over another. But I'm not aware of any system that, outside of those special effects or a canned adventure/encounter, manages things like how a set of opponents should act or select targets.

When a player does something to look dangerous, or look combat-ineffective should the GM not be the one to make the call on how that affects the target prioritization of the opposition? When setting up an encounter should the GM not layout tactics and general expected behavior of the NPCs?

How is this any different than laying out when you design the dungeon room that the Hobgoblins will attack the Wizard first by rushing him with their longswords unless one of the other players distracts them or prevents their movement?

That is totally what I am trying to say, just from the opposite perspective. The GM should take into consideration the flow of the battle and make sure the enemies are taking actions that make sense. Sometimes I feel like the GM can be tempted to a "me vs. the players mentality" and try not to let the players affect the flow of battle. The goal of the players should be to take the situation into their own hands as much as possible (that is just good battle tactics) and the GM should respond appropriately based on the players efforts.

I have just played with too many GMs who either do not want to relinquish any control to the players or just have no concept of how a fight/battle would actually go down that this level of Player/GM cooperation was actually a bit of a personal revelation.

I've got a player in an on-hiatus FaD game that's a Guardian/Soresu Defender that's looking to deep into Shien Expert for the Supreme Reflect, with the intention of using Defensive Circle as his Action each round, hopefully netting himself better ranged defense and thus better odds of getting Improved Reflect to trigger. Yes, Defensive Circle is a Lightsaber check, but it's not a combat check, so it counts. He's gonna have a lot of ranks in Reflect (and Parry) by the time he's done, so he pretty much will be a tank in terms of avoiding damage... which is what Soresu is all about to begin with.

Are you sure? I'm away from my books at the moment, but I'm inclined to label anything that uses a Combat Skill - like Lightsaber - as a "combat check." If there's a clarification or rule somewhere that can shed some additional light, I'd appreciate it if you could point me in that direction.

I've got a player in an on-hiatus FaD game that's a Guardian/Soresu Defender that's looking to deep into Shien Expert for the Supreme Reflect, with the intention of using Defensive Circle as his Action each round, hopefully netting himself better ranged defense and thus better odds of getting Improved Reflect to trigger. Yes, Defensive Circle is a Lightsaber check, but it's not a combat check, so it counts. He's gonna have a lot of ranks in Reflect (and Parry) by the time he's done, so he pretty much will be a tank in terms of avoiding damage... which is what Soresu is all about to begin with.

Are you sure? I'm away from my books at the moment, but I'm inclined to label anything that uses a Combat Skill - like Lightsaber - as a "combat check." If there's a clarification or rule somewhere that can shed some additional light, I'd appreciate it if you could point me in that direction.

Quite sure. There are plenty of ways to use a "combat" skill that don't involve an actual combat check. Additionally a lot of the other talents like Disruptive Strike, Draw Closer, Hawk-Bat Swoop, and so on specify that you must make a Lightsaber (ability) melee combat check, whereas Defensive Circle and Strategic Form just specify a Lightsaber (Intellect) check.

I treat Defensive Circle and Strategic Form as combat checks for the purpose of Supreme Parry/Reflect. Although I also replace Improved Reflect in Soresu Defender with Supreme Reflect, so that's possibly why .

If the player buys the talent then I want to find uses for it so they can do their cool stuff. I'd personally make NPCs shoot the guy with the lightsaber more and get frustrated that he's just reflecting shots left and right. Might also give that player a chance to use Improved Reflect and send some blaster bolts back at the NPCs.

Hehe, reminds me of one of these GM's who always stopped giving the advantage to players when they got certain abilities. Like in this case, the enemies would never shoot the guy, they would always go with melee attacks at him.

Really frustrating when GM wants to win, it's not actually fun to play campaigns like that.

And I always though I "win" as GM when everyone is having fun … I mean, it is trivial to kill players as GM. "You are dead.", so what would be the point of trying to "win" a combat encounter which I did design myself anyway?

Maneuver to activate Side Step, then convert your Action to change Range bands as needed to either keep yourself at Medium Range or keep yourself within cover (assuming you don't have ranged defense from armor or gear already). Staying at Medium Range means attacks against you are 1 red and 1 purple at the very least, and being in cover increases the chances of your opponent generating the three threat you need to trigger Improved Reflect.

I've got a player in an on-hiatus FaD game that's a Guardian/Soresu Defender that's looking to deep into Shien Expert for the Supreme Reflect, with the intention of using Defensive Circle as his Action each round, hopefully netting himself better ranged defense and thus better odds of getting Improved Reflect to trigger. Yes, Defensive Circle is a Lightsaber check, but it's not a combat check, so it counts. He's gonna have a lot of ranks in Reflect (and Parry) by the time he's done, so he pretty much will be a tank in terms of avoiding damage... which is what Soresu is all about to begin with.

They're not perfect strategies, but then again there's not really any "perfect strategies" in this system to begin with.

I want to add on to what Dono has said.

Characters don't have to only make combat actions in a structured combat scenario. This is a Shien Expert? Then maybe they use Perception to notice something that works in their favor. Survival to interact with the environment. Skulduggery to create obstacles, retreat through a closed door to a better fighting location, or pick something up near by that the Baddie does want them to have. Streetwise to know the area and lead the fight to an advantageous area. Deception to make their opponent think they are in over their head and the PC is that much more powerful than them.

And those are just suggestions to key off a possibly higher Cunning of a Sentinel. Knowledge checks could be used to introduces facts to the encounter. I know that's normally done with destiny points but it works with Knowledge checks due to the possibility of failure/threat/despair making it not a sure thing.

Piloting to judge the speed/traffic of those speeders/ships over there so you could successfully jump on the vehicle.

I could go on but hopefully you get the idea.

The above are all non-combat checks. If you use these you have the ability to put more setbacks or upgrades on a minion group of shooters change to hit you. Hell, you could even put failures or threat on their combat checks depending on your GM, how cool/cinematic/creative your idea is, and the dice results from your check.

Finally, if you want to get movie/tv level blaster bounce back going, I recommend two Force Powers: Sense and Misdirect.

Sense has two control upgrades that cost 40 XP to get to, including base power cost, and once you have them you commit a single force die and upgrade combat checks against you twice for two attacks per round. This essentially gives you Adversary 2 for two separate attacks targeting you.

Misdirect has a combat control upgrade that costs 55 XP to get to, including base power cost, and once you have it you commit force dice up to your Force Rating to add threat equal to dice commit to all checks targeting the Force user.

I personally think Misdirect is the better power for blaster bolt bouncing shenanigans.

The two upgrades aren't bad and can sometimes make the check more difficult for your opponents. But the chance for a despair isn't as good as guaranteed threats. In fact, I've found that you want only a single deflection on your saber. You can get other setbacks with cover, and you aren't looking to make the attacker miss their shot. You want them to hit with enough threat to reflect the shot back.

Committing two Force Dice into the Misdirect upgrade will have you Reflecting many shots as they only need a single threat on a hit to realize the bad decision of shooting at you.

Happy reflecting!

Another houserule I use is that a character can use Parry or Reflect on missed attacks if they want to trigger the Improved versions. It makes narrative sense to me, and they still have to spend the strain.

Another houserule I use is that a character can use Parry or Reflect on missed attacks if they want to trigger the Improved versions. It makes narrative sense to me, and they still have to spend the strain.

I've tinkered with this but I thought it might be unbalancing toward the Reflecter as we do run into NPCs with Improved Reflect and them getting extra damage in that way could really suck.

How has this worked out over all in your experience?

Maneuver to activate Side Step, then convert your Action to change Range bands as needed to either keep yourself at Medium Range or keep yourself within cover (assuming you don't have ranged defense from armor or gear already). Staying at Medium Range means attacks against you are 1 red and 1 purple at the very least, and being in cover increases the chances of your opponent generating the three threat you need to trigger Improved Reflect.

I've got a player in an on-hiatus FaD game that's a Guardian/Soresu Defender that's looking to deep into Shien Expert for the Supreme Reflect, with the intention of using Defensive Circle as his Action each round, hopefully netting himself better ranged defense and thus better odds of getting Improved Reflect to trigger. Yes, Defensive Circle is a Lightsaber check, but it's not a combat check, so it counts. He's gonna have a lot of ranks in Reflect (and Parry) by the time he's done, so he pretty much will be a tank in terms of avoiding damage... which is what Soresu is all about to begin with.

They're not perfect strategies, but then again there's not really any "perfect strategies" in this system to begin with.

I want to add on to what Dono has said.

Characters don't have to only make combat actions in a structured combat scenario. This is a Shien Expert? Then maybe they use Perception to notice something that works in their favor. Survival to interact with the environment. Skulduggery to create obstacles, retreat through a closed door to a better fighting location, or pick something up near by that the Baddie does want them to have. Streetwise to know the area and lead the fight to an advantageous area. Deception to make their opponent think they are in over their head and the PC is that much more powerful than them.

And those are just suggestions to key off a possibly higher Cunning of a Sentinel. Knowledge checks could be used to introduces facts to the encounter. I know that's normally done with destiny points but it works with Knowledge checks due to the possibility of failure/threat/despair making it not a sure thing.

Piloting to judge the speed/traffic of those speeders/ships over there so you could successfully jump on the vehicle.

I could go on but hopefully you get the idea.

The above are all non-combat checks. If you use these you have the ability to put more setbacks or upgrades on a minion group of shooters change to hit you. Hell, you could even put failures or threat on their combat checks depending on your GM, how cool/cinematic/creative your idea is, and the dice results from your check.

Finally, if you want to get movie/tv level blaster bounce back going, I recommend two Force Powers: Sense and Misdirect.

Sense has two control upgrades that cost 40 XP to get to, including base power cost, and once you have them you commit a single force die and upgrade combat checks against you twice for two attacks per round. This essentially gives you Adversary 2 for two separate attacks targeting you.

Misdirect has a combat control upgrade that costs 55 XP to get to, including base power cost, and once you have it you commit force dice up to your Force Rating to add threat equal to dice commit to all checks targeting the Force user.

I personally think Misdirect is the better power for blaster bolt bouncing shenanigans.

The two upgrades aren't bad and can sometimes make the check more difficult for your opponents. But the chance for a despair isn't as good as guaranteed threats. In fact, I've found that you want only a single deflection on your saber. You can get other setbacks with cover, and you aren't looking to make the attacker miss their shot. You want them to hit with enough threat to reflect the shot back.

Committing two Force Dice into the Misdirect upgrade will have you Reflecting many shots as they only need a single threat on a hit to realize the bad decision of shooting at you.

Happy reflecting!

Oh my goodness thanks a ton! This is exactly the kind of analysis I was looking for.

The latest episode of Rebels ("The Last Battle") has an example of this as Rex calls for the "sword and shield" (I think) maneuver which involves Kanan and Ezra standing in front of Rex deflecting blaster fire and Rex firing back.

As for what to do with Actions - activate force powers:

Activate Sense - if bought up enough you'll be harder to hit an much more likely to generate Despair/Threat when being attacked.

Activate Battle Meditation: boost your team while protecting them

Activate Bind: This one might be iffy depending on your GM (technically I don't think Bind is a combat check but the GM might decide otherwise)

Activate Protect

Activate [Whatever the name of that Force Power is from Keeping the Peace which counteracts force powers]

Another houserule I use is that a character can use Parry or Reflect on missed attacks if they want to trigger the Improved versions. It makes narrative sense to me, and they still have to spend the strain.

I've tinkered with this but I thought it might be unbalancing toward the Reflecter as we do run into NPCs with Improved Reflect and them getting extra damage in that way could really suck.

How has this worked out over all in your experience?

I actually really like this idea. If the attack missed and generated 3x threat or a despair, I don't see why the PC could not trigger improved reflect without taking any damage at all. A failed combat check with all that threat/despair is pretty cataclysmic (for anyone) so I don't see this as particularly game breaking. I will play test this going forward.

Edit : Perhaps I would put a skill requirement on the Lightsaber skill. For example: if the PC has 3 ranks in Lightsaber, then they "unlock" the ability to deflect missed shots this way. The skill ranks represent the amount of time the PC has spent training (with the remote, studying holocrons, general practice from actual fights), and after a point the player is skilled enough to see (or "sense") the opportunity to deflect stray blaster fire.

The latest episode of Rebels ("The Last Battle") has an example of this as Rex calls for the "sword and shield" (I think) maneuver which involves Kanan and Ezra standing in front of Rex deflecting blaster fire and Rex firing back.

As for what to do with Actions - activate force powers:

Activate Sense - if bought up enough you'll be harder to hit an much more likely to generate Despair/Threat when being attacked.

Activate Battle Meditation: boost your team while protecting them

Activate Bind: This one might be iffy depending on your GM (technically I don't think Bind is a combat check but the GM might decide otherwise)

Activate Protect

Activate [Whatever the name of that Force Power is from Keeping the Peace which counteracts force powers]

I think you're making this harder than it needs to be.

Kanan and/or Ezra are likely using Circle of Shelter.

For those not familiar with the talent-

Circle of Shelter:

When an engaged ally suffers a hit., may use Parry or Reflect incidental against the hit.

I mentioned using the Sense control commit upgrade above. And the KtP power is called Suppress.

The latest episode of Rebels ("The Last Battle") has an example of this as Rex calls for the "sword and shield" (I think) maneuver which involves Kanan and Ezra standing in front of Rex deflecting blaster fire and Rex firing back.

As for what to do with Actions - activate force powers:

Activate Sense - if bought up enough you'll be harder to hit an much more likely to generate Despair/Threat when being attacked.

Activate Battle Meditation: boost your team while protecting them

Activate Bind: This one might be iffy depending on your GM (technically I don't think Bind is a combat check but the GM might decide otherwise)

Activate Protect

Activate [Whatever the name of that Force Power is from Keeping the Peace which counteracts force powers]

I think you're making this harder than it needs to be.

Kanan and/or Ezra are likely using Circle of Shelter.

For those not familiar with the talent-

Circle of Shelter:

When an engaged ally suffers a hit., may use Parry or Reflect incidental against the hit.

I mentioned using the Sense control commit upgrade above. And the KtP power is called Suppress.

I wasn't suggesting that all those things had to be done while guarding someone else but were generally useful things to do with an Action instead of a combat check.

I agree with Circle of Shelter is what they were doing in The Last Battle (that Talent slipped my mind).

Another houserule I use is that a character can use Parry or Reflect on missed attacks if they want to trigger the Improved versions. It makes narrative sense to me, and they still have to spend the strain.

I've tinkered with this but I thought it might be unbalancing toward the Reflecter as we do run into NPCs with Improved Reflect and them getting extra damage in that way could really suck.

How has this worked out over all in your experience?

I actually really like this idea. If the attack missed and generated 3x threat or a despair, I don't see why the PC could not trigger improved reflect without taking any damage at all. A failed combat check with all that threat/despair is pretty cataclysmic (for anyone) so I don't see this as particularly game breaking. I will play test this going forward.

Edit : Perhaps I would put a skill requirement on the Lightsaber skill. For example: if the PC has 3 ranks in Lightsaber, then they "unlock" the ability to deflect missed shots this way. The skill ranks represent the amount of time the PC has spent training (with the remote, studying holocrons, general practice from actual fights), and after a point the player is skilled enough to see (or "sense") the opportunity to deflect stray blaster fire.

The problem with doing that (and I tried it out during the FaD Beta playtest), especially with Improved Reflect, is that it begins to scale up the Jedi's damage output. And since they're already packing one of the best weapons in the game, they really don't need the extra boost to damage output that being able to use Improved Parry/Reflect on missed attacks provides.

When the attack misses and produces threat, the GM can simply narrate, that the Jedi Lightsaber-wielder reflected some of the bolts (doesn't even need the talent ) and deal strain for the threat, which means wounds for minions.