I think I have used Vader once maybe in all the fleets I've schemed and probably never in an actual game. So, for 36 points, what should his ability have been to warrant such a price?

Since he's such an awesome fighter jock, it should have been the following:

All Your squadrons without Heavy receive the rogue keyword.

Couple of things:

There is a difference between being a good pilot and knowing how to command squadrons.

8 point rogue TIEs would be the best thing ever.

Vader has a place in the game, if you build a fleet for him. He'll be pretty good in CC too at 500 points.

I personally love Vader how he his: more pew pew with utter and total disregard for his subordinates' lives. That's the Vader I know and love. I will grant you that right now he doesn't have much of an niche. Blues are dependable and blacks have plenty of manipulation sources within Empire. Vader really wants red dice, which Empire doesn't have much of right now. Wave 5 and the Light Cruiser is where I expect Vader to find his place. You could argue that TRCs would be better on the Light Cruisers, but at the end of the day Vader ends up giving a similar effect for cheaper and cheaper per ship. I'm gunning for a triple Light Cruiser fleet led by Vader on an ISD. You have to spend a minimum of 20 points on a commander, which I've come to see as more of a tax than anything. If I could go commmander-less I would in a heartbeat. Replacing TRCs and Leading Shots with Vader means that I'm essentially only paying 11 points for the commander tax. And plus, he lets you exhaust that stupid contain instead of your precious evade. I might start finally using Empire during some tournaments. Should be fun.

I sort of echo what Truthiness is saying, but add an additional point.

At the moment Raiders can be somewhat expendable with Vader. Without Vader, Raiders require ordnance experts and usually other upgrades. With Vader you can run them completely naked and still have a highly powerful asset on your hands. Does it make it wise to send Raiders suicidally at the enemy, nope, but if you do its a lot cheaper.

Its somewhat thematic, Vader allows his fleets to be much lighter in upgrades and much more expendable. The fleet cost is locked into the admiral and the flagship.

After reading the Cards that need help and Design your own card threads, I changed my opinion on whether some cards are good or not, including Vader. I used to think he was expensive and I never used him, but people still play with Vader and enjoy it, and I think this is what makes Armada so freaking awesome - it allows for a variety of play styles and all are valid options to go to a tournament. I don't think he needs to be changed until wave 5 hits and how he will do with the new light cruiser.

However, if I had to change him, "You may spend 1 defense token to change 1 die to a single hit icon. You do this multiple times." So you get a little for fire power but nothing too crazy, and if you go all in, you have no defense tokens. Same points.

However, if I had to change him, "You may spend 1 defense token to change 1 die to a single hit icon. You do this multiple times." So you get a little for fire power but nothing too crazy, and if you go all in, you have no defense tokens. Same points.

Why would you take him over Screed?

I just wish you could use Vader against squads. I mean why not?

I love using Vader with 3 x ISD-I with APT's and Fire Control Teams, rerolls for double crit fishing is well worth 36 points :-)

I love using Vader with 3 x ISD-I with APT's and Fire Control Teams, rerolls for double crit fishing is well worth 36 points :-)

I dont think an ISD1 can take APTs can it?

I love using Vader with 3 x ISD-I with APT's and Fire Control Teams, rerolls for double crit fishing is well worth 36 points :-)

I dont think an ISD1 can take APTs can it?

Why let that ruin the fun?

I love using Vader with 3 x ISD-I with APT's and Fire Control Teams, rerolls for double crit fishing is well worth 36 points :-)

I dont think an ISD1 can take APTs can it?

Why let that ruin the fun?

Just go for Expanded Launchers then with CF for 11 dice barrages.

I love using Vader with 3 x ISD-I with APT's and Fire Control Teams, rerolls for double crit fishing is well worth 36 points :-)

I dont think an ISD1 can take APTs can it?

I meant VSD-I doh for me :-)

If Vader's ability applied to squadrons too (e.g., Aces), I think he'd be costed appropriately.

If Vader's ability applied to squadrons too (e.g., Aces), I think he'd be costed appropriately.

I think that might be border line broken. Squad re-rolls are much harder to come by. Toryn Farr and swarm are the only ones I can think of. And that's for good reason in my opinion. Swarm of TIEs+Howl+FC+Vader would mean you'd probably roll 4-5 damage with every freaking squadron you activate.

However, if I had to change him, "You may spend 1 defense token to change 1 die to a single hit icon. You do this multiple times." So you get a little for fire power but nothing too crazy, and if you go all in, you have no defense tokens. Same points.

Why would you take him over Screed?

I just wish you could use Vader against squads. I mean why not?

Screed spends 1 die to change another. My Vader would allow you to change all your dice, including anti squad, but you spend defense tokens instead. So your 4 red blanks are now 4 hits. Works great if the ISD is last activation, but you easily counter that by blowing up ther ships.

I'm okay with Vader's ability as it stands. But since we're in this thread, what about "After a ship rerolls one or more dice, you may reroll one die. You may use this ability once per activation." Instead of being the source of the rerolls, which aren't often hard to come by, he makes them even better with his blend of Force and technology. It also becomes defensive, which may seem unthematic for him, but honestly when's the last time Vader lost a battle? The guy should be versatile rather than overcommitted to offense. It also puts him at home at the helm of an ISD, rather than an Arquitens.

I'm okay with Vader's ability as it stands. But since we're in this thread, what about "After a ship rerolls one or more dice, you reroll one die. You may use this ability once per activation." Instead of being the source of the rerolls, which aren't often hard to come by, he makes them even better with his blend of Force and technology. It also becomes defensive, which may seem unthematic for him, but honestly when's the last time Vader lost a battle? The guy should be versatile rather than overcommitted to offense. It also puts him at home at the helm of an ISD, rather than an Arquitens.

So you get to use him on your rerolls and your opponents? Would he stack with Scramblers, getting a 5th reroll? Sounds like a fun card. How much would he cost though? Rerolls are typically cheap, so like 25-30 points?

Wait for the Arquitens.

I'm okay with Vader's ability as it stands. But since we're in this thread, what about "After a ship rerolls one or more dice, you reroll one die. You may use this ability once per activation." Instead of being the source of the rerolls, which aren't often hard to come by, he makes them even better with his blend of Force and technology. It also becomes defensive, which may seem unthematic for him, but honestly when's the last time Vader lost a battle? The guy should be versatile rather than overcommitted to offense. It also puts him at home at the helm of an ISD, rather than an Arquitens.

So you get to use him on your rerolls and your opponents? Would he stack with Scramblers, getting a 5th reroll? Sounds like a fun card. How much would he cost though? Rerolls are typically cheap, so like 25-30 points?

Yeah, so you get one more chance to reroll things. With Scramblers, you can reroll a fifth die, or re-reroll one of them.

As I think about this, it's quickly becoming hairier. The initial intention was just to enhance your rerolled attacks, to make Vader fleets love upgrades that invoke the will of the Force dice. And then I thought about Scramblers. Wasn't my first thought, but I figured it was fine. But this does make Vader a pretty severe counter to fleets that use Ordnance Experts, Leading Shots, Veteran Gunners, Toryn Farr, Evade defense tokens, Concentrate Fire command tokens, or (ironically) Vader. That's not intended, and either warrants a thorough rewording or a trip back to the drawing board.

What does Vader do in a fleet? Kill subordinates. Why does he do this? Because they're as clumsy as they are stupid.

Use Vader to either replace an Officer upgrade with another more suitable to your opponent's build or sacrifice an Officer card to permanently reduce a ship's command by 1 to a minimum of 1.

Heck, turn him into an intership assassin and expend him once a turn to try to roll a red hit hit and remove an Officer card from the enemy fleet (admiral would be a bit OP)

What does Vader do in a fleet? Kill subordinates. Why does he do this? Because they're as clumsy as they are stupid.

Use Vader to either replace an Officer upgrade with another more suitable to your opponent's build or sacrifice an Officer card to permanently reduce a ship's command by 1 to a minimum of 1.

Heck, turn him into an intership assassin and expend him once a turn to try to roll a red hit hit and remove an Officer card from the enemy fleet (admiral would be a bit OP)

I'd settle for "When a friendly ship attacks, you may discard an upgrade card attached to its Officer, Support Team, or Weapons Team slot. If you do, you may choose a number of your attack dice equal to the card's cost and set each one to a face of your choosing. If you discard a unique upgrade card, you may add an extra blue die to your dice pool, set to a face of your choosing."

That could cause quite the body count in round 6. You could potentially get a double use out of any of the command changing officers by using them at activation then again by sacrificing them at an attack.

Still a very Vader thing to do.

I know Vader is a TIE advanced unit but him having escort doesn't seem to fit with him thematically. He's not an escorting kinda guy. Rogue/counter/grit/snipe seem more his style.

Really, there was two options that way...

Either you get Vader with the restrictions of the Keywords that were only available in Wave One... (Bomber, Escort, Counter, Swarm), and acknowledge there was a distinct lack of Escort anywhere in the Empire....

...

Or you're waiting the better part of what, a year and a half, for what is seemingly the most Iconic Character of Star Wars to show up at all....

I'm happy he was there.

Without him being able to face off against Luke (Who, really, suffers from exactly the same problem), the Early Days would have been lacking.

I personally love his escort. Pair with Dengar and he's a damage machine, almost guaranteed to damage anyone that attacks him

And Fel next to him to make ships pay for shooting at the Dark Lord.

If Vader would be redesigned I'd like something that gives certainty of damage. Re-rolls are okay for quality control but there's no gurantee your new result will be better than the one you just left behind. Especially on Reds. And the defense token is a bit steep of a price to pay, since Defense tokens can stop a lot of damage coming in. I'd rather the ship suffer one unspecified damage for that re-roll.

His cost, and Tarkin's Cost, with their functional restrictions take them out of seeing them in a lot of lists I think. Though I'd like to take the time to find out what I could do with some lists after freeing up the points by skipping on leading shots and Ordnance experts. Raiders are not going to need their two evades when they get into optimum range.