Seem to be having trouble finding an answer to this.

Hero character has a speed of 5. They equip Stone Armor, "Your speed is reduced to 3 and cannot be increased above 3". They also have the Steelmage hero skill Iron Blooded "apply -1 to your speed". Is this heroes speed now 3 or 2?

As silly as it may sound, I think the active player gets to choose his speed. The outcome depends on what order the abilities are applied (either it's 5-1 then changed to 3, or if's 5 changed to 3 then -1), and both have a timing trigger of "while you have this card." By the golden rule,that is chosen by the active player.

I know that's a strech, but the only other ways I would see to determine it are to give preference to the skill since it cannot be unequipped (but no such rule exists) or to give preferemce to a reassaignment "value is now X" over a modifier "Apply +X to value" (but no such rule exists).

If this question is really bugging you, I'd submit the question to FFG. Otherwise, the above is my best guess.

As much as I like this game. It's glaring rules oversights and contradictions like this that make my gaming group want to toss Descent out the window. So for the trillionth time: FFG - write a rules reference that lines up some awkward oversights (like "movement/movement points"), consolidates rules, and then put it on the site so you don't have to make Descent 3 just yet.

Thanks,

Everyone who plays the game loyally.

In fairness, the movement/movement point thing has been straightened out. It's still a complicated system, but it's clear how each part of said system works.

But yes- I just posted in another thread that there are still Deacent questions i come across where there isn't a readily available answer- this is today's example."Apply -1... to your speed" is new with the CtR expansion. This interaction hasn't existed before now (the 'apply +1' isn't usually an issue because of the cap on max speed with these items).

logically, let's say that this is how I think it works :

Iron blood gives you -1 speed so you have 4 speed.

But stone armor put that number under 3 and cannot be above 3, whatever number it is.

So, if the number is below 3, apply this one, but if the number is higher than 3, apply 3 instead. So, if you had a hero with 3 speed, and then apply Iron blood and then Stone Armor, it would be 2 (3-1 = 2 and cannot be above 3)

But you can ask FFG for some clarification even if I don't think they are going to give another answer

There's something magical about Descent's ability to generate rules quandaries. And, of course, the OL vs Hero competition has a tendency to polarize those debates to an extreme.

As far as this question goes, I'd be inclined to say your Speed is 3. You're suffering from two separate effects that slow you down, so the one that limits you the most is the one that decides your final speed. Of course, that's not by any means clear, I agree with Zaltyre that the strictest reading of the rules would make it the active player's choice.

We ended up just giving someone else the stone armor to move on with the game lol, but I think player decides is probably accurate from what I've seen.

...the OL vs Hero competition has a tendency to polarize those debates to an extreme.

As far as this question goes, I'd be inclined to say your Speed is 3... I agree with Zaltyre that the strictest reading of the rules would make it the active player's choice.

That polarization is the main reason I think it's important to have clear, "strict" (=unbiased) rules discussions. Nothing in my experience hurts the mood at the table than a player gaining a significant advantage with an ability of questionable legality.

Also, whether of not "active player's choice" is the correct reason, the result will likely be the same- speed of 3.

I don't understand the confusion. It seemed obvious to me that the Speed would be 2. You've got the Speed value (the number on the hero sheet) and a modifier (-1). The armor changes the Speed value to 3. Then, modifiers are added or subtracted (in this case, 3-1 = 2).

I can understand if you've got two competing effects that say "your Speed is..." but a value changer +/- a modifier just makes 3-1=2 make sense to me.

Question is legitimate.

Common sense says your speed should be 3. Everything else is intellectual masturbation. Nobody with some sanity would consider your speed being 2, unless your overlord was a jackass.

This seems very simple...

You have a hero with speed 5, a permanent skill with a -1, and an armor with a max limit of 3?

Unequip the armor.

Now your speed is 4.

Equip the armor.

Now your speed is 3.

End discussion.

Question is legitimate...Nobody with some sanity would consider your speed being 2, unless your overlord was a jackass.

I disagree that the alternative isn't worth considering (though ultimately I agree, speed is 3).

If the armor says "your Speed is 3" and the skill says "apply -1 to your Speed" (which it does) an argument can certainly be made for final Speed = 2. I think the implication that "Iron Blooded" refers to the Speed value on your hero sheet, but is it so odd to consider the alternative (namely, that is, "iron blooded" applies to you current Speed, which the armor makes 3)?

I enjoy a little mental exercise now and then, so let me give chase down this particular rabbit hole.

Zaltyre, I agree that this is annoyingly ambiguous and an equally valid argument could be made for Speed=2. I also see a situation that could crop up if we lean on the Golden Rules, which I will get to. But first let's back up a second, because I believe distinguishing between "current speed" and "base speed" is somewhat irrelevant and could cause confusion.

Let's first consider that both Stone Armor and Iron Blooded affect your "base speed" i.e. the speed characteristic number printed on the character card. Both cards specifically call out speed characteristic alterations, telling you either the discrete value of your speed (in the case of Stone Armor) or giving you a modifier that affects the speed characteristic in a relative way (as Iron Blooded does). In either case your "base speed" has been altered. One card requires less math, but again they both do the same "thing": they alter your base speed. Stone Armor tells you discretely that your speed is now 3. That 4 or 5 that's written on your card just got erased and it's now a 3. Similarly with Iron Blooded, "Apply -1 to your speed" is equivalent to saying "your base speed is now one less than it was before". Effectively you can erase what was on the character card and replace it with a value one less than it was before. Making a distinction between your "current speed" and your "base speed" seems to be irrelevant. Both these cards alter what your base speed is. The confusion completely stems from ability timing, per yours (and others) previous comments, and nowhere else. I've beaten this dead horse to highlight the point that you only ever have one speed, not a "current speed" vs a "base speed", to eliminate any confusion that might crop up trying to distinguish between the two.

That being established we get back to ability timing. So we have to look at what the rules say about ability timing in this context. The rules say NOTHING about timing of this specific sort. We are given no guidance for the specific scenario where one player has two or more abilities affecting the same stat at the exact same time and which takes precedence (which you've also stated previously). This is the very definition of ambiguous, which is why I completely disagree with previous statements that any end result here seems "obvious". This is the very definition of a gray area.

Now let me further complicate the equation: relying on The Golden Rules for any useful guidance causes more headache than it solves. If you want to apply them to this situation you have to make an extrapolation from the 2nd bulleted Golden Rule, which states that timing conflicts induced when two or more players' abilities have the same triggering condition are resolved by the active player. We now have to make a logical leap to assume this also applies to the situation where a single player has two abilities that have the same trigger timing, which the rules specifically do not address. This is dangerous, because assuming the active player gets to address all card timing issues in this vein you could end up with a situation where, when it is the hero's turn his base speed is considered to be 3, but when it's anyone else's turn his base speed is considered to be 2 if that's what they want it to be for whatever reason!

I do not believe the designers had this kind of inane consequence in mind. Since the RAW don't specifically address this nasty little corner case, we have to look at what the designers implemented for other instances of more obvious ambiguity. Typically it's "player choice". I'm thinking of Road to Legend here, where many more ambiguous situations arise with monster placement and the like. I'd keep the "active" player, which the Golden Rules lean on, out of this as it introduces further nasty corner cases which I'm convinced the designers did not intend. Ultimately, if you are the player controlling the hero that falls into this pit of ambiguity, it seems that the intent (RAI) from the designers would be to give YOU, the controlling player, the choice of how the timing occurs for effects that you have applied to your character that trigger "at the same time". Your speed would ultimately be 3. Perhaps this is what was meant by "obvious" or "common sense" stated earlier.

I vote for tomkat364.

Mainly cause speed 2 sucks.

cdj, thanks for expanding the arguments. I'd only like to add that aplying the timing golden rule to multiple abilities of the same player (while it may be a logical leap from the text in the rulebook) has a strong precedence establised by previous rulings. For example, it's been used to justify choosing the order to deal damage to particular targets, spend surges, resolve effects related to entering a space, etc. A more accurate phrasing of that rule would be, "if two or more abilities with the same trigger are used simultaneously, the active player may decide the order in which to resolve them."

@ceasersalad

This is a weird interaction. On the surface, the card looks as straightforward as "Apply +1 to your speed."

I disagree that the alternative isn't worth considering (though ultimately I agree, speed is 3).

If the armor says "your Speed is 3" and the skill says "apply -1 to your Speed" (which it does) an argument can certainly be made for final Speed = 2. I think the implication that "Iron Blooded" refers to the Speed value on your hero sheet, but is it so odd to consider the alternative (namely, that is, "iron blooded" applies to you current Speed, which the armor makes 3)?

I was half-joking, the game itself is a huge mental exercice, so I´m not going to pretend I´m not getting a kick out of these dicussions My point was more that although technically legitimate, the argument for speed being set to 2 really stood up (in my mind) as something a bad (disgraceful) player would try to impose to somebody. I mean in practice; I wouldn't be willing to spend in.game time to argue about something like this with my hero players. Bearing in mind how much of a pain it is to move around when you speed is 3 or less.

After thinking about this , I think it is arguable that the speed should be 2 indeed. If you play a character with speed 3 and get iron blooded then your speed is 2. Would the stone armour then raise your speed? This is wired especially since it totally depends on the order by which this is executed.

Also, I think there is a healer character with speed 2. Does he get faster by wearing stone armor? Makes no sense.

In my view any modifiers to stats should be independent of order. With the stone armor this is not the case since it sets the speed to a certain value. Hence, I'd modify/ read the stone armour as: your speed is at maximum 3 and you can't spend fatigue to get movement points. This solves the problem and is logical (but not RAW).

After thinking about this , I think it is arguable that the speed should be 2 indeed. If you play a character with speed 3 and get iron blooded then your speed is 2. Would the stone armour then raise your speed? This is wired especially since it totally depends on the order by which this is executed.

Also, I think there is a healer character with speed 2. Does he get faster by wearing stone armor? Makes no sense.

In my view any modifiers to stats should be independent of order. With the stone armor this is not the case since it sets the speed to a certain value. Hence, I'd modify/ read the stone armour as: your speed is at maximum 3 and you can't spend fatigue to get movement points. This solves the problem and is logical (but not RAW).

No, Stone Armor wouldn't raise your speed. Per the wording it only reduces speed. It is effectively a speed cap. If you were already slow, 3 or less, you aren't going to get any slower. Your premise is incorrect. However, I do still agree that an argument can be made for speed=2, strictly due to ambiguity of timing. That being said, as Zaltyre has mentioned, there is precedent for active player choosing timing in these situations. This still leaves Pandora's Box open for active player shenanigans. We need a ruling and FAQ update. Personally I don't like the idea of the active player getting to decide in what order my character's skill and armor apply. I applied them. I, as the controlling player, should get to choose the timing of those effects.

I guess to me it would seem like your speed becomes 3 with the armour and then the ability makes it 2. The ambiguity would come with "Base Speed" so it only reduces the speed on your character sheet and not the actual speed of your character with the armour.

Because it doesn't say base speed, I'd say your speed is 2.

If it did say base speed then your speed would be 3 (unless you're a character who only has base speed 3!)

I seriously can't fathom how anyone would consider the speed to be 3.....

Why apply the armour first and then Ironblood? In that reasoning, unequipping and equipping the armour would change the hero's speed from 2 back to 3 anyway. Why bother with reducing it to 2?

But you can fathom it, because the rules do not address this situation at all. You may be having some cognitive dissonance trying to reconcile these effects from a thematic point of view.

The point is that, because of a glaring rules ambiguity, either speed is equally valid depending on who the active player is. Whether you consider that to be thematically valid is an entirely different subject. It is indeed true that, per rules interpretation precedent, your base speed can fluctuate between 3 and 2 based on who the active player is and their whims. This to me is more inconsistent with theme than the argument over whether it is 3 or 2. Who the current active player is seems completely (thematically) irrelevant when determining base speed. I just have to remind myself that the theme in D2E is somewhat irrelevant, and that this game isn't really a dungeon crawl so much as it is a very complex game of chess with pretty terrain tiles and figures.

I seriously can't fathom how anyone would consider the speed to be 3.....

Why apply the armour first and then Ironblood? In that reasoning, unequipping and equipping the armour would change the hero's speed from 2 back to 3 anyway. Why bother with reducing it to 2?

But you can fathom it, because the rules do not address this situation at all. You may be having some cognitive dissonance trying to reconcile these effects from a thematic point of view.

I would say, as I mentioned, unless it says "Base speed" on the card it's pretty clear cut that it makes your movement two.

FFG does respond very quickly to rules questions raised here on the site though so it's not too hard to find out for sure.