How can justify the 18 points of vader now? Even if he gain heroic and deadly... 18 points are too much.. Dont you think?

I want to play vader, its my favourite character... But...

What Vader needs is something like:

Force pull: once per activation, when you declare an attack, before you declare your target, you may push one small figure up to three space to an adjacent space. You must target that figure with this attack.

or something like Wampa's ability: At the start of your activation, if there are no hostile figures within 4 space, gain 4 movement points (or "you may perform a move", but these 2 have different implications on command cards/skirmish upgrades)

but I don't think even that would justify 18 points

How can justify the 18 points of vader now? Even if he gain heroic and deadly... 18 points are too much.. Dont you think?

I want to play vader, its my favourite character... But...

What Vader needs is something like:

Force pull: once per activation, when you declare an attack, before you declare your target, you may push one small figure up to three space to an adjacent space. You must target that figure with this attack.

Sound interesting but i hope to a cost reduction of 4-5 points in the next faqs. A 13-14 points vader would be playable again without any other changes in his card.

The other chracters from old waves need a similar cost reduction or nobody will play han or chewie if they can use this awesome luke !

How can justify the 18 points of vader now? Even if he gain heroic and deadly... 18 points are too much.. Dont you think?

I want to play vader, its my favourite character... But...

What Vader needs is something like:

Force pull: once per activation, when you declare an attack, before you declare your target, you may push one small figure up to three space to an adjacent space. You must target that figure with this attack.

or something like Wampa's ability: At the start of your activation, if there are no hostile figures within 4 space, gain 4 movement points (or "you may perform a move", but these 2 have different implications on command cards/skirmish upgrades)

but I don't think even that would justify 18 points

I love this luke jedi. My faith in the dark side is falling down!

The thing people forget is that Vader is also the hardest figure to kill in the game. It becomes incredibly hard to get the 18pts off him. It's points denial.

Take the new map for example. You can easily get Vader into the area with the 2 objectives. Now all of a sudden you have to come to him, and he's going to reap a heavy toll if he can just stand there and hit things, while gaining VPs every turn.
Another example would be deception game on Training ground.... You can basically sit in a corner and wait for the enemy to come to you, eventually you'll have to face Vader.

The problem with Vader is he's only good sometimes, and thus not competitive.

There's some maps where he's amazing because he's a fortress that hits like a freight train. But on other maps where speed is more important or there's enough room to get away from him, then he's a bit weaker. He's just no flexible or versatile enough, but that doesn't mean he's not good.

Either way, points denial is significant.

*** Except now with the new Luke.... coz he can kill vader in one turn with Son of Skywalker. Now that's terrifying.

As I said in the skirmish post, he's got to have LOS. Look at the ISB map for example and tell me how and why (outside of turn 1) your going to have LOS with Jabba on that map. You may get more mileage in Nelvaniaan Warzone. Dianoga Map Jabba may be a liability altogether with his poor movement and only certain places he can fit in th deployment zone.

I was excited for it, but I don't think it will get as much play, especially not in scum lists.

Ummm...your play style must be rush in and hope for the best?

C-3PO is 3 speed and has to be ADJACENT and I manage to get his focus off on my other toons more than once or twice a game. Trust me, Ill have no problem getting him within LoS of others.

~D

Not at all, I was just pointing out that in several of the maps, Jabba's deployment is limited due to his base size and impassible terrain etc. Most of the folks here that skirmish seem to only play the 3 maps in rotation as opposed to the other 25+ maps. If Jabba moves to keep in LOS, he's not scheming or incentivizing (focus). IMO, the one movement point and the recover or harmful condition removal has a limited benefit on small point figures.

*** Except now with the new Luke.... coz he can kill vader in one turn with Son of Skywalker. Now that's terrifying.

Well, that only works if you mention Luke's sister in a menacing and slightly creepy way. So don't do that and you should be fine.

*** Except now with the new Luke.... coz he can kill vader in one turn with Son of Skywalker. Now that's terrifying.

Well, that only works if you mention Luke's sister in a menacing and slightly creepy way. So don't do that and you should be fine.

Don't need Leia at all.

Luke does 4 damage against Vader on average, NOT including Vader's reroll. Getting 2 attacks then using Son of Skywalker for another 2 attacks is 16 damage on average.

Even with Vader's reroll, it's certainly possible.

If you do it when you have initiative next turn that pretty much guarantees it as Luke will get 6 attacks.

*** Except now with the new Luke.... coz he can kill vader in one turn with Son of Skywalker. Now that's terrifying.

Well, that only works if you mention Luke's sister in a menacing and slightly creepy way. So don't do that and you should be fine.

Don't need Leia at all.

Luke does 4 damage against Vader on average, NOT including Vader's reroll. Getting 2 attacks then using Son of Skywalker for another 2 attacks is 16 damage on average.

Even with Vader's reroll, it's certainly possible.

If you do it when you have initiative next turn that pretty much guarantees it as Luke will get 6 attacks.

This is why vader need to cost 13-14 or have a free evade to prevent pierce 3 and could be 18 points. This luke is how all uniques would be

*** Except now with the new Luke.... coz he can kill vader in one turn with Son of Skywalker. Now that's terrifying.

Well, that only works if you mention Luke's sister in a menacing and slightly creepy way. So don't do that and you should be fine.

Don't need Leia at all.

Luke does 4 damage against Vader on average, NOT including Vader's reroll. Getting 2 attacks then using Son of Skywalker for another 2 attacks is 16 damage on average.

Even with Vader's reroll, it's certainly possible.

If you do it when you have initiative next turn that pretty much guarantees it as Luke will get 6 attacks.

This is why vader need to cost 13-14 or have a free evade to prevent pierce 3 and could be 18 points. This luke is how all uniques would be

I actually have houseruled Vader to cost 13, but I ran some numbers and it's not looking good for the Imperial side:

Damage probability for

Luke vs. Vader: 1 99, 2 95, 3 84, 4 61, 5 31, 6 9, 7 1

Luke vs. Vader+auto evade: 1 91, 2 77, 3 55, 4 31, 5 13, 6 3 (I would never take Luke then)

Also don't forget his 2 abilities heroic and deflect. I'm having a really hard time thinking how much Vader should actually cost to be able to go head to head vs. Jedi Luke. Or give Vader extra abilities? Free targeting computers/rerolls? Give Vader heroic? Right now even with Vader costing 13 I think Jedi Luke is still better

Vader is exempt from deflect because he uses melee.

NewLuke's BGY average 3.3 dmg. He gets +1 automatically and 1.5 surges. Vader gets 3 blocks average. I would almost auto include Zillo Technique in your estimations as well, but maybe not.

My point is nothing is ever done in a vacuum and I doubt someone is going to let NewLuke pound on their Vader for several turns in a row without doing anything about it.

Did anyone figure out how much dmg NewLuke is taking back from Vader? RRY 5.2dmg and .8 surges Luke is blocking 1/2 the time and evading 1/2 the time

Depending on who hits first and what officers are around I would almost guarantee +2dmg and strain from Force Choke at least once in the equation. Pretty good chance that without an x-man NewLuke is dead as well.

I'm not saying that the earlier deployment cards are a little skewed, I don't think that has ever been questioned, but making Vader 13pts seems a little radical.

For the most part, I consider the new Luke not as good as the original- especially when you consider the figure cost.\

The trouble with Vader is not his toughness but lack of versatility. He only works if you can force opponents to come to him, or if they can't get away. Yes he can capture an objective, but then you are wasting 18 points of combat power on something a longer trooper could handle. This is especially a problem on maps with multiple objectives as you 18 point monster is defending an objective while the rest of your forces are facing the full might of your enemy at the objective on the other side of the map.

Vader is exempt from deflect because he uses melee.

Depends on what you mean. Vader's attack does not trigger the effect, but if a stormtrooper shoots Luke and Vader is in Luke's LOS, Luke can totally direct that damage on Vader.

Yet-to-be-tested adjustment: Make Vader cost 16, keep his foresight, and add "Defensible" from the repulsor tank (apply +1 block or +1 evade while blocking)

Vader is supposed to be stronger than Luke, hits like a truck, and is supposed to be extremely difficult to take down. Adding defensible means he's pretty much immune to 2-dice attacks and 3-dice attacks do about 3~4 dmg on him (lowest 0, highest 5, consistent 3~4)

I think the problem is that Vader is supposed to be better than Luke in every way, but with their stats right now it's very likely that Vader's going to be crushed like a bug by his son...looking at that pierce 3. Adding defensible means Vader now stands a chance to not receive a 6 damage hit from Luke

I'd be fine with Vader at 18 pts if he had like 24-26 hps.

I mean we all agree, 2 sets of eTroopers at 18 pts is 30 hps. So why can't Vader have the same?

~D

We all want the same thing ( the earlier figures to be balanced/better for skirmish play ) but frankly they just weren't designed that way. They were designed and priced (pointwise) for Campaign. This happens every time they try to shoehorn in a unit for both Campaign and Skirmish. You get a mish-mash mixture that sometimes isn't good for either game or works for one but not the other. It was rampant (basically every figure up until Hoth) in the beginning where skirmish was practically an add-on to the Campaign game. Every deployment is a little off except for maybe the Troopers. In Hoth, it got a little better. HK, echo base troopers, leia, etc are all pretty good, Wampas, not so good. Anything good from the Core was an accident (hence, Gideon/officers, Royal Guard being a little too good, etc.)

I think I understand why they're re-releasing new cards (although Luke didn't need it) as a strategy. I don't think they can balance Chewbacca, Darth Vader, etc. by just docking some points or any of the other 4000 ideas here on the boards, I think they plan to re-release new iterations of them like they are doing with Luke that makes them a bit more balanced for the skirmish and campaign (hopefully)

I look at HoodieDM's suggestion and I say - yeah, that seems reasonable, then I think of the time playing against an ATST or Vader where my normal guys can't get a single damage through or only 1 damage through, while Vader is killing 2 guys a turn, and I just don't think it's that easy. Yeah, for someone that uses up 1/2 your deployment points, he needs to be half an army unto himself, but you don't want hero hammer either, where 1-2 guys do everything and the rest of your army is junk.

NewLuke's BGY average 3.3 dmg. He gets +1 automatically and 1.5 surges. Vader gets 3 blocks average. I would almost auto include Zillo Technique in your estimations as well, but maybe not.

My point is nothing is ever done in a vacuum and I doubt someone is going to let NewLuke pound on their Vader for several turns in a row without doing anything about it.

Did anyone figure out how much dmg NewLuke is taking back from Vader? RRY 5.2dmg and .8 surges Luke is blocking 1/2 the time and evading 1/2 the time

Depending on who hits first and what officers are around I would almost guarantee +2dmg and strain from Force Choke at least once in the equation. Pretty good chance that without an x-man NewLuke is dead as well.

I'm not saying that the earlier deployment cards are a little skewed, I don't think that has ever been questioned, but making Vader 13pts seems a little radical.

My point is that with son of skywalker, if you activate Luke last, your opponent doesn't get a reply before Luke does 4 attacks. 6 if you have initiative.

It's those combos that do huge amounts of damage, like a full jungland, crush double activation bantha.

For the most part, I consider the new Luke not as good as the original- especially when you consider the figure cost.\

New Luke is HEAPS better than old Luke. You get so much stuff for just 2 extra points and the only thing you lose is rerolls for other people and recover. It's amazing.

Old Luke is a support hero that can do some damage and tank a bit. New Luke is a combat beast. Different roles, but I'll take the new one every day.

I'd be fine with Vader at 18 pts if he had like 24-26 hps.

I mean we all agree, 2 sets of eTroopers at 18 pts is 30 hps. So why can't Vader have the same?

~D

Troopers are only 1 black. You can't just do a straight health comparison.

For the most part, I consider the new Luke not as good as the original- especially when you consider the figure cost.\

Must admit I agree with this. It's not a huge difference of course but points are always tight and standard Luke combos so well with leia and does reliable damage with recover. He's a massive pain to deal with. New Luke seems expensive enough and powerful enough to be the absolute focus of everything the enemy has without the resilience to survive it. Wait and see I guess.

For the most part, I consider the new Luke not as good as the original- especially when you consider the figure cost.\

New Luke is HEAPS better than old Luke. You get so much stuff for just 2 extra points and the only thing you lose is rerolls for other people and recover. It's amazing.

Old Luke is a support hero that can do some damage and tank a bit. New Luke is a combat beast. Different roles, but I'll take the new one every day.

Melee vs Range- essentially the same attack (and oddly enough, old Luke's saber attack almost as good as the new one). Less movement- area buff reroll is very good. Old Luke can take way more than 16 damage and stay ticking. +1 block is better most of the time than +1 evade when rolling a white die. I reliably hit from 9 spaces away with old Luke- new Luke can't even double move and attack that. Greedo prays he's facing the new Luke and runs from the original.

I, too, am not sold on the new Luke. But one benefit is that when you move him into the fray, they had better devote a lot of attention to him. Two (and potentially four with SoS) attacks is not something to dismiss, whereas you could let old Luke take his shot and live with that if you were killing off everyone else. So new Luke forces the other player to make tougher decisions. Just make sure you make the opponent pay while he's taking Luke on (I envision a set of focused eSabs marching up behind him).

-ryanjamal

You get hurt shooting at him, I don't know with his movement if you can get 4+ spaces away and still shoot at him. With cards like deflect, parry, Camoflauge and some others I can't think of now, you take a risk trying to kill him too. Not saying it's better or worse, but it will happen more often than not

Just one more way all trooper lists are getting knocked down a bit

If Luke gets killed by a ranged attack, does Deflect still trigger?

If Luke gets killed by a ranged attack, does Deflect still trigger?

In reality no, because he didn't deflect it if it hit him in the mouth , but in gameplay, as the rules are written, I'd say it probably does.

Look below for the real answer.