I forget to list the added 1 Agi, that being said, the HWK is still only a 2A ship. Green die start to be better investments then health at the 3+ range or alternatively with larger pools of health. Are you telling me you honestly wouldn't trade the 1 A on the HWK for 2 shields and a hull if they added a free unique modification that did so? Also that primary does matter when you're using a weapon with a limited range band, like you know, every single turret we have.

As for support that obviously only applies to the unique pilots. Palob has IMO one of the best HWK abilities, but is he worth 1/5 of your points to run naked? I'd say most would say no on that, so how much does it cost to kit him out and make him a decent fighter? Just giving him a TLT makes him cost a point over 1/4th your list at 26, he can now shoot, but that's a 4th of your list in a ship that flies like a brick and can die fairly easily in 1 or 2 rounds of combat. Do you give him a Cloaking device & Stygium to try and keep him alive? How much do you invest to try and use his ability?

That's the issue, the HWK is even worse then your average ship naked, after the tax of making it not completely useless in a fight it's less of a support ship and more of a poor mans fighter. You simply cannot have a ship taking a third of your points be completely useless in a fight. This even more evident on Scum HWKs that need to be in the thick of the fight to use their abilities. It lacks the health to survive, or the maneuverability to avoid damage in the first place. If it was cheaper this wouldn't be a issue as it would be less fire on my more important ships, but once again, once equipped a HWK takes up a significant portion of your list in a very fragile package with only decent firepower.

As for Serissu you want cheap spam for one of the same reason Xizor wants cheap spam, to increase your odds of actually being in range 1 of one of your ships. Yes you can activate Serissu for as many times as the the enemy attacks the affected ship, but that still requires you to be in range. Fenn is a ace, even with the title you're better off avoiding arcs entirely if you're able. If you tie Serissu to Fenns hip you're telegraphing your moves and making it harder to avoid arc. It's only a single green die reroll, it's not the almost guaranteed block that is Biggs. Not even close.

I would rather have Serissu in a list where she will do something than in a swarm where she will do zero. As for HWKs, I see Palob in a lot of lists, suggesting he works just fine.

You obviously have your opinions. I believe them to be VERY wrong, but I'm not going to be able to persuade you. though most of the better players in this thread seem to agree with me.

Think about it this way, you have a swarm of 5 M3-A, they will ofc shoot Serissu first, because she doesn't get the bonus, so her ability will not trigger once in the fight. With Howlrunner, she will normally stay at the back so be in long range and will evade. as long as she survives, you get 1 reroll for every model in your list, so having more models means more re-rolls. However you put Serissu with a Heavy hitter they will either shoot her, so won't be shooting at your damage dealer, or the damage dealer in which case you get a reroll every shot against them. So in a swarm Serissu does nothing at all, in a small elite force she is useful.

Serissu is going on R3+evade exactly as Howlrunner. Most of all, you can put her into a Mangler swarm, so I have to choose if I want get down Serissu, or some firepower.

Seri can bring up Hullupgrade/Stealthdevice, when the other will bring cannons.

And if I lose Serissu, I don't cry so much. My firepower is safe. If I lost Howlrunner this improves A LOT my firepower. In this way Serissu works as a Biggs even into a cannon swarm.

I'm not set in my ways, I could be convinced if I was showed otherwise or if the math added up. Like I said, I love the look of the HWK and want to use it more. It's just hard not to notice the limitations when switching back and forth between ships. As for better players agreeing, who exactly? I just posted this and you're one of the few to respond as of yet. Lol, if you wanna take that tone well alright.

Proof is in the pudding, check the stats your self for how often the HWK is used over a Y. http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/or http://xwing.miniranker.com/ships.php?d=90&f=0

Obviously this won't apply for the Scyk for some time as it's a recent update, but I think if Serrs ability was that note worthy someone would of made good use of it, 1 hull or otherwise. This is clearly not the case.

Think about it this way, you have a swarm of 5 M3-A, they will ofc shoot Serissu first, because she doesn't get the bonus, so her ability will not trigger once in the fight. With Howlrunner, she will normally stay at the back so be in long range and will evade. as long as she survives, you get 1 reroll for every model in your list, so having more models means more re-rolls. However you put Serissu with a Heavy hitter they will either shoot her, so won't be shooting at your damage dealer, or the damage dealer in which case you get a reroll every shot against them. So in a swarm Serissu does nothing at all, in a small elite force she is useful.

Serissu is going on R3+evade exactly as Howlrunner. Most of all, you can put her into a Mangler swarm, so I have to choose if I want get down Serissu, or some firepower.

Seri can bring up Hullupgrade/Stealthdevice, when the other will bring cannons.

And if I lose Serissu, I don't cry so much. My firepower is safe. If I lost Howlrunner this improves A LOT my firepower. In this way Serissu works as a Biggs even into a cannon swarm.

Just bring another Mangler Scyk instead. It's got almost the same effect but you end up with more firepower.

Back to the Howlrunner and Serrisu comparison: In a swarm, as long as Howlrunner doesn't get burned down before the swarm shoots the each ship in range of her ability multiplies her effectiveness. The same isn't true for Serissu. If your opponent tries to burn her down first her ability does nothing other than influence target priority. It doesn't matter how many ships she has in range for her abilility because it doesn't trigger. If your opponent choses to shoot at something other than Serissu, it still doesn't matter how many ships she has in range of her ability as it will trigger as many times as the enemy attacks whether there is one ship or six ships that are able to benefit from Serissu's ability.

Well it seems to agree with me, Y-Wing is used a TLT filler, HWK-290 is used as a support ship. 1,166 lists to 2,500 lists. That doesn't say what you are saying that there is never a use for a HWK over a Y-Wing, Just that they are both being used, and being used for different things.

As for my comment of players agreeing with me, there are at least 3 pages of discussion about Serissu, which boils down to people saying they can't get her to work in a swarm, and people saying that she works best in a 3 ship build.

^^This

Love the mangled scyk, played them a load with latts razzi which was fun, if too much glass cannon

Think about it this way, you have a swarm of 5 M3-A, they will ofc shoot Serissu first, because she doesn't get the bonus, so her ability will not trigger once in the fight. With Howlrunner, she will normally stay at the back so be in long range and will evade. as long as she survives, you get 1 reroll for every model in your list, so having more models means more re-rolls. However you put Serissu with a Heavy hitter they will either shoot her, so won't be shooting at your damage dealer, or the damage dealer in which case you get a reroll every shot against them. So in a swarm Serissu does nothing at all, in a small elite force she is useful.

Serissu is going on R3+evade exactly as Howlrunner. Most of all, you can put her into a Mangler swarm, so I have to choose if I want get down Serissu, or some firepower.

Seri can bring up Hullupgrade/Stealthdevice, when the other will bring cannons.

And if I lose Serissu, I don't cry so much. My firepower is safe. If I lost Howlrunner this improves A LOT my firepower. In this way Serissu works as a Biggs even into a cannon swarm.

Just bring another Mangler Scyk instead. It's got almost the same effect but you end up with more firepower.

Back to the Howlrunner and Serrisu comparison: In a swarm, as long as Howlrunner doesn't get burned down before the swarm shoots the each ship in range of her ability multiplies her effectiveness. The same isn't true for Serissu. If your opponent tries to burn her down first her ability does nothing other than influence target priority. It doesn't matter how many ships she has in range for her abilility because it doesn't trigger. If your opponent choses to shoot at something other than Serissu, it still doesn't matter how many ships she has in range of her ability as it will trigger as many times as the enemy attacks whether there is one ship or six ships that are able to benefit from Serissu's ability.

Think about it this way, you have a swarm of 5 M3-A, they will ofc shoot Serissu first, because she doesn't get the bonus, so her ability will not trigger once in the fight. With Howlrunner, she will normally stay at the back so be in long range and will evade. as long as she survives, you get 1 reroll for every model in your list, so having more models means more re-rolls. However you put Serissu with a Heavy hitter they will either shoot her, so won't be shooting at your damage dealer, or the damage dealer in which case you get a reroll every shot against them. So in a swarm Serissu does nothing at all, in a small elite force she is useful.

Serissu is going on R3+evade exactly as Howlrunner. Most of all, you can put her into a Mangler swarm, so I have to choose if I want get down Serissu, or some firepower.

Seri can bring up Hullupgrade/Stealthdevice, when the other will bring cannons.

And if I lose Serissu, I don't cry so much. My firepower is safe. If I lost Howlrunner this improves A LOT my firepower. In this way Serissu works as a Biggs even into a cannon swarm.

Just bring another Mangler Scyk instead. It's got almost the same effect but you end up with more firepower.

Back to the Howlrunner and Serrisu comparison: In a swarm, as long as Howlrunner doesn't get burned down before the swarm shoots the each ship in range of her ability multiplies her effectiveness. The same isn't true for Serissu. If your opponent tries to burn her down first her ability does nothing other than influence target priority. It doesn't matter how many ships she has in range for her abilility because it doesn't trigger. If your opponent choses to shoot at something other than Serissu, it still doesn't matter how many ships she has in range of her ability as it will trigger as many times as the enemy attacks whether there is one ship or six ships that are able to benefit from Serissu's ability.

But that influence how much effort needs your enemy to take down a ship mate. So is worthing.

And no, another Mangler Scyk doesn't do the same. But I'm not talking about just 4*mangler scyks+Serissu

Well it seems to agree with me, Y-Wing is used a TLT filler, HWK-290 is used as a support ship. 1,166 lists to 2,500 lists. That doesn't say what you are saying that there is never a use for a HWK over a Y-Wing, Just that they are both being used, and being used for different things.

As for my comment of players agreeing with me, there are at least 3 pages of discussion about Serissu, which boils down to people saying they can't get her to work in a swarm, and people saying that she works best in a 3 ship build.

Yes, but you latched onto the wrong idea, my point was that the Scyk is still not "fixed" in any practical sense. The generics have competition in the exact same role that also don't see much use. The unique is of dubious value. My point wasn't that she works in a swarm, I even said in that very post that Scum currently lacks the kind of ship necessary to play this way. My point wasn't that she's better in a swarm of Zs or Scyks then a 3 ship list, it's that she's bad in both. I mentioned the idea of a swarm as a way to actually get constant use of her ability. In a 3 ship list I don't see the practicality of moving in formation just for the sake of her ability. This limits your firing coverage for a rather weak defensive boost, or worse, makes your aces movement predictable.

As for the HWK vs TLT debate. People do try non-meta list in tournaments, it's not unheard of, but how far do support HWKs generally make the cut vs TLT Thugs? If they're both present but one regularly makes it higher up the list then the other does that not imply that I'm correct in thinking the Y is a more competitive and efficient ship? Once again, I never said the HWK was useless, just that it's hard to justify a "support" ship that takes up a 3rd of your list. That and Y-wings make better TLT boats. Honestly I hope they eventually add cheap HWK specific upgrades that allow it to do a buff or debuff at the cost of it's attack like some of the recent ships we've seen. That way I can fit a true support ship in a list and not a half ass brawler with a cool effect.

Think about it this way, you have a swarm of 5 M3-A, they will ofc shoot Serissu first, because she doesn't get the bonus, so her ability will not trigger once in the fight. With Howlrunner, she will normally stay at the back so be in long range and will evade. as long as she survives, you get 1 reroll for every model in your list, so having more models means more re-rolls. However you put Serissu with a Heavy hitter they will either shoot her, so won't be shooting at your damage dealer, or the damage dealer in which case you get a reroll every shot against them. So in a swarm Serissu does nothing at all, in a small elite force she is useful.

Serissu is going on R3+evade exactly as Howlrunner. Most of all, you can put her into a Mangler swarm, so I have to choose if I want get down Serissu, or some firepower.

Seri can bring up Hullupgrade/Stealthdevice, when the other will bring cannons.

And if I lose Serissu, I don't cry so much. My firepower is safe. If I lost Howlrunner this improves A LOT my firepower. In this way Serissu works as a Biggs even into a cannon swarm.

Just bring another Mangler Scyk instead. It's got almost the same effect but you end up with more firepower.

Back to the Howlrunner and Serrisu comparison: In a swarm, as long as Howlrunner doesn't get burned down before the swarm shoots the each ship in range of her ability multiplies her effectiveness. The same isn't true for Serissu. If your opponent tries to burn her down first her ability does nothing other than influence target priority. It doesn't matter how many ships she has in range for her abilility because it doesn't trigger. If your opponent choses to shoot at something other than Serissu, it still doesn't matter how many ships she has in range of her ability as it will trigger as many times as the enemy attacks whether there is one ship or six ships that are able to benefit from Serissu's ability.

Think about it this way, you have a swarm of 5 M3-A, they will ofc shoot Serissu first, because she doesn't get the bonus, so her ability will not trigger once in the fight. With Howlrunner, she will normally stay at the back so be in long range and will evade. as long as she survives, you get 1 reroll for every model in your list, so having more models means more re-rolls. However you put Serissu with a Heavy hitter they will either shoot her, so won't be shooting at your damage dealer, or the damage dealer in which case you get a reroll every shot against them. So in a swarm Serissu does nothing at all, in a small elite force she is useful.

Serissu is going on R3+evade exactly as Howlrunner. Most of all, you can put her into a Mangler swarm, so I have to choose if I want get down Serissu, or some firepower.

Seri can bring up Hullupgrade/Stealthdevice, when the other will bring cannons.

And if I lose Serissu, I don't cry so much. My firepower is safe. If I lost Howlrunner this improves A LOT my firepower. In this way Serissu works as a Biggs even into a cannon swarm.

Just bring another Mangler Scyk instead. It's got almost the same effect but you end up with more firepower.

Back to the Howlrunner and Serrisu comparison: In a swarm, as long as Howlrunner doesn't get burned down before the swarm shoots the each ship in range of her ability multiplies her effectiveness. The same isn't true for Serissu. If your opponent tries to burn her down first her ability does nothing other than influence target priority. It doesn't matter how many ships she has in range for her abilility because it doesn't trigger. If your opponent choses to shoot at something other than Serissu, it still doesn't matter how many ships she has in range of her ability as it will trigger as many times as the enemy attacks whether there is one ship or six ships that are able to benefit from Serissu's ability.

But that influence how much effort needs your enemy to take down a ship mate. So is worthing.

And no, another Mangler Scyk doesn't do the same. But I'm not talking about just 4*mangler scyks+Serissu

It's the same extra effort whether she is with six other ships or just one. If what she's protecting is a big enough threat to shoot at in spite of her ability, her ability might make it slightly harder to take down. It might also not make a difference at all. Howlrunner gets also gets the benefit of each of her rerolls potentially being further augmented with a focus token. In most cases, only one reroll will have a focus token if Serrisu grants 4 rerolls in a round.

It doesn't matter what other ships she's with but if they are her cost or lower you might as well just take another one of them instead of Serissu. In the example of Serissu + 5 Scyks, I'm shooting at her first because she's your most expensive and highest PS ship. Her ability is just reinforcing my tatgetting choice.

Think about it this way, you have a swarm of 5 M3-A, they will ofc shoot Serissu first, because she doesn't get the bonus, so her ability will not trigger once in the fight. With Howlrunner, she will normally stay at the back so be in long range and will evade. as long as she survives, you get 1 reroll for every model in your list, so having more models means more re-rolls. However you put Serissu with a Heavy hitter they will either shoot her, so won't be shooting at your damage dealer, or the damage dealer in which case you get a reroll every shot against them. So in a swarm Serissu does nothing at all, in a small elite force she is useful.

Serissu is going on R3+evade exactly as Howlrunner. Most of all, you can put her into a Mangler swarm, so I have to choose if I want get down Serissu, or some firepower.

Seri can bring up Hullupgrade/Stealthdevice, when the other will bring cannons.

And if I lose Serissu, I don't cry so much. My firepower is safe. If I lost Howlrunner this improves A LOT my firepower. In this way Serissu works as a Biggs even into a cannon swarm.

Just bring another Mangler Scyk instead. It's got almost the same effect but you end up with more firepower.

Back to the Howlrunner and Serrisu comparison: In a swarm, as long as Howlrunner doesn't get burned down before the swarm shoots the each ship in range of her ability multiplies her effectiveness. The same isn't true for Serissu. If your opponent tries to burn her down first her ability does nothing other than influence target priority. It doesn't matter how many ships she has in range for her abilility because it doesn't trigger. If your opponent choses to shoot at something other than Serissu, it still doesn't matter how many ships she has in range of her ability as it will trigger as many times as the enemy attacks whether there is one ship or six ships that are able to benefit from Serissu's ability.

Think about it this way, you have a swarm of 5 M3-A, they will ofc shoot Serissu first, because she doesn't get the bonus, so her ability will not trigger once in the fight. With Howlrunner, she will normally stay at the back so be in long range and will evade. as long as she survives, you get 1 reroll for every model in your list, so having more models means more re-rolls. However you put Serissu with a Heavy hitter they will either shoot her, so won't be shooting at your damage dealer, or the damage dealer in which case you get a reroll every shot against them. So in a swarm Serissu does nothing at all, in a small elite force she is useful.

Serissu is going on R3+evade exactly as Howlrunner. Most of all, you can put her into a Mangler swarm, so I have to choose if I want get down Serissu, or some firepower.

Seri can bring up Hullupgrade/Stealthdevice, when the other will bring cannons.

And if I lose Serissu, I don't cry so much. My firepower is safe. If I lost Howlrunner this improves A LOT my firepower. In this way Serissu works as a Biggs even into a cannon swarm.

Just bring another Mangler Scyk instead. It's got almost the same effect but you end up with more firepower.

Back to the Howlrunner and Serrisu comparison: In a swarm, as long as Howlrunner doesn't get burned down before the swarm shoots the each ship in range of her ability multiplies her effectiveness. The same isn't true for Serissu. If your opponent tries to burn her down first her ability does nothing other than influence target priority. It doesn't matter how many ships she has in range for her abilility because it doesn't trigger. If your opponent choses to shoot at something other than Serissu, it still doesn't matter how many ships she has in range of her ability as it will trigger as many times as the enemy attacks whether there is one ship or six ships that are able to benefit from Serissu's ability.

But that influence how much effort needs your enemy to take down a ship mate. So is worthing.

And no, another Mangler Scyk doesn't do the same. But I'm not talking about just 4*mangler scyks+Serissu

It's the same extra effort whether she is with six other ships or just one. If what she's protecting is a big enough threat to shoot at in spite of her ability, her ability might make it slightly harder to take down. It might also not make a difference at all. Howlrunner gets also gets the benefit of each of her rerolls potentially being further augmented with a focus token. In most cases, only one reroll will have a focus token if Serrisu grants 4 rerolls in a round.

It doesn't matter what other ships she's with but if they are her cost or lower you might as well just take another one of them instead of Serissu. In the example of Serissu + 5 Scyks, I'm shooting at her first because she's your most expensive and highest PS ship. Her ability is just reinforcing my tatgetting choice.

And that's fine to me, is what I want. I'm not saying that she works better into a swarm, I'm just say that she works into a swarm as she works with any ace/other ships.

I.e. I consider 4 ships fleet as a swarm, to the purpose of the topic.

Which is blatantly not true, there is a big difference putting her with Aces and putting her with a swarm. We are not comparing Apples to Apples here.

I don't know, while jousters in general suffered at the hands of TLTs, I feel Scyks fare better than most - the Kithraxz got a raw deal, but against a TLT I'd happily trade that 1 HP for the extra agi and reliable crits.

Serissu is Biggs, not Howlrunner. Trying to fly her as anything else is a dangerous errand in futility.

Ok guys, you're right

What the scyck needs now is a PS3 generic with ept

I call it

In Yo Face Aces:

Fenn Rau (Fearlessness, Autothrusters, Concord Dawn, Seismic Torp)

Talonbane Cobra (Fearlessness, Vectored Thrusters, Glitterstim, Homing Missiles)

Serrisu (VI, Heavy Scyk, Vectored Thrusters, Ion Cannon)

OK, if you don't want Seri as the number one target (I'm doing an aces theme, so that's why VI) there are other 1 pt EPTs that will do.

Hit hard, die young. Have fun.

Vectored Thrusters are a waste of points on a Scyk. They've got the barrel-roll action even without it. I'd probably take those two points and swap Fearlessness out for PTL on Fenn Rau.

Absolutely right about the VTs, traded for the Mangler. I don't want to compromise the guaranteed hit of Fearlessness and stress Fenn with PTL although if there's anyone who can handle stress with all his great green turns it's Fenn.

In Yo Face Aces:

Fenn Rau (Fearlessness, Autothrusters, Concord Dawn, Seismic Torp)

Talonbane Cobra (Fearlessness, Vectored Thrusters, Glitterstim, Homing Missiles)

Serrisu (VI, Heavy Scyk, Mangler Cannon)

99pts

But people who actually know what they're doing, on the other hand...

Your childish 90's netlisting is evil and WAAC boo hoo rant aside, people who 'actually know what they're doing' have long ago realized that there are some ships/upgrades in this game that just aren't worth it from a purely mechanical standpoint, either because other ships do what they do better, or because what those ships do well is just not viable in game at a given point.

I don't understand the blind hatred towards net list, in any game with a luck based variable people are inevitably going to crunch the numbers to reduce that variable. Yes, they do occasionally miss something that would otherwise work due to herd mentality. I believe that's the exception, not the rule. Some things are just rendered inferior by something that full fills the same exact role, but better.

I don't really have a problem with "netlisting" people. What I dislike is the herd mentality that many people take. The idea that the "experts" out there have already tried out all the ships and it's "a clear fact" that no one uses certain ships at the high tables and they are therefore bad. My perfect example is the Tie Defender. Everyone ruled it out. Biophysical practiced at home on his own with them against all the meta lists. He "got gud". Biophysical took them to major events and did very well. He didn't outright win, but he was at the top tables. Oh, but that's just some freak of nature and just one guy. It took a while, but a few other people started to take Tie Defenders to major events and did well with them, too. I see it that maybe it wasn't as bad a ship as people said. That it took some time to learn it and practice with it against the meta. Once you figured it out, you could do well with it.

Part of being good is knowing your own list and how to fly it. I think learning how to fly ships in your list goes a long way to being good with a ship. Here's another example:

The Starviper was ruled out as well. I did practice with it and talked to some other guys who played with it. At the time, most of us die hards used Xizor and 5 Z-95's. There were a few guys in the UK that ended up placing in the Top 4 at major events with the Xizor. It wasn't the US and didn't get much attention, but it happened. I took it to Regionals and if my dice hadn't just gone so dang cold in the last game, I would've placed in Top 16. Even my opponent said he almost felt bad for me.

I believe that not enough people really try ships out enough before they decry it Dead On Arrival. I think there are enough examples of players out there that have done incredibly well with crazy ships. Aren't the guys at Spanish Nationals always doing odd stuff at the high tables? Sometimes a specific ship speaks to a player in a way that they can fly it better than others. They just get it. With practice against the big lists and good list building, they can make a ship shine well in their specific list. What I dislike is the idea that some ships are listed as bad and should never be taken. I think that sometimes it's just a matter of the right person using it in the right list (with a lot of practice).

Just as a side point, there are places for cheap, generic ships that fill a role in a list. Take a blocking Z-95. Look at a TLT Y-wing. These guys are no glamour or considered "amazing", but they fill a role in a list for other ships to flesh out. The Ion Heavy Scyk can easily fit into this role. It's 19 pts for a ship that isn't as horrible at the mathwing as it used to be. It fires late in the turn at R 1-3 with 3 red dice to Ionize someone. He's not the high priority target most of the time. He can really help out a list. It's a generic support ship. This type of a ship can be in a list that makes it to the top tables. I think people should consider this aspect when they say they will never see it at the top tables.

=============

OK...enough about debating that stuff.

As I said above, I think the 19 pt PS 2 Ion Cannon Heavy Scyk is a great ship to throw into many lists.

As for Serrisu, I do agree that she works the opposite of Howlrunner. Howlrunner works best with more allies near her shooting. Serrisu works when more enemy are shooting those around her. I want to consider her a support ship, to be honest. You don't really want to load her up with too much as she doesn't work on herself. She just becomes the target. Put her in a list with some high value targets that she wants to support. The free re-roll on green dice is pretty good as we know green dice suck. Also, if you have someone that abuses the action sequences and often has a Focus token to spend for defense, then it's a good deal. We all know the green die sucks. There aren't that many successes. There are too many blanks. Being able to re-roll a blank and hope you get a Evade or a Focus is good enough, though, as it's 5/8's of a die. THAT is worth it.

Personally, I would go with only enough stuff to make her cheap. I see:

All of this illustrates well the "dark side" of competitive play. Overall, competitive play is good for the game, but it has the unintended consequence of netlisting, "meta" think, etc. I also thinks it contributes significantly to power creep.

Look at the timing chart that has been released in the latest FAQ. It's getting a little nuts. this game used to be intuitive, fast, and easy to learn. I used to be able to go to a tournament and do alright. Now, I have not been to a tournament in a long time, so I'm really only speculating, but I have a feeling with all the different interactions, there is a much steeper learning curve to competitive play, which I think might make it much more daunting for a new player to break into.

I'm happy to stick to casual play for this reason, but I'm glad competitve play is still a thing.

In my gaming group lots of ships see the the table because people want to fly them. Are they uber optimized lists? usually not. But we fly and have fun anyway.

Just a random observation. I need to head to a tourney again to see what its like now.

As for Serrisu, I do agree that she works the opposite of Howlrunner. Howlrunner works best with more allies near her shooting. Serrisu works when more enemy are shooting those around her. I want to consider her a support ship, to be honest. You don't really want to load her up with too much as she doesn't work on herself. She just becomes the target. Put her in a list with some high value targets that she wants to support. The free re-roll on green dice is pretty good as we know green dice suck. Also, if you have someone that abuses the action sequences and often has a Focus token to spend for defense, then it's a good deal. We all know the green die sucks. There aren't that many successes. There are too many blanks. Being able to re-roll a blank and hope you get a Evade or a Focus is good enough, though, as it's 5/8's of a die. THAT is worth it.

Personally, I would go with only enough stuff to make her cheap. I see:

Serissu (20)

Tractor Beam (1)

"Heavy Scyk" Interceptor (Cannon) (2)

Total: 23

That's 23 pts for a ship that doesn't have too hard a time staying in R1 of a specific ship.

She has room for an EPT. Personally, I would either go with Attani Mindlink, VI, or Juke. Mindlink we all know about and it requires someone else with Mindlink, as well. Let me think about Juke, though. I think it works in this particular role very well.

Evade action is good on Serrisu all the time as she wants to be defensive, just in case someone is shooting at her instead of the high value target she is protecting. PS 8 is pretty good and there are only a few ships that are higher than her in the whole game. She fires before many ships. She can strip their tokens with 3 red dice and the thread of a Tractor Beam. Yes, Stealth Soontir will be able to avoid that, but what about other ships? They might have to spend that Focus token that they have. Even just forcing them to spend that token is worth it for her. If she does hit, she gives other ships a -1 green die for the target. Possibly even gets to move someone into a better position. She gets to keep her Evade token for defense.

Oh, but there are lot's of PS 9 aces or PS 8 that have initiative in the game! What about them? Well...maybe they already spent their Focus token already! It's quite possible that they just spent their juice to really put the hurt on someone.

Veteran Instincts is also a good option for Serrisu. She moves after everyone else. She won't bump or give away the position of the other ship she's trying to protect. She can try to maneuver around someone that is trying to arc dodge the person you are protecting. She fires before everyone. She can strip tokens or get that Tractor Beam token on someone before anyone fires.

That's how I run Serissu when I use her. The Tractor Beam gives her great utility in the squad. If the enemy wants to gun her down first, they're welcome to it because she's not the heavy-hitter in my squad. I just need her for her pilot skill so that my other ships can shoot at a crippled target (i.e. tractor beam token). For me, her ability is just gravy. If it triggers, that's great on my 1-agility YV-666 and G-1A, but if she's not in range, that's fine, too. I think she really needs to be supporting other types of ships, though; not just more M3-As.

The swarms where I find Serissu works, is the 4 kihraxz/fang fighter + adaptability Serissu swarm, or the quad proton rocket sycks with swarm tactics title serrisu. Having equal point worth, and lower offense coupled with lower pilot skills - makes serrisu a lot like Biggs. In these cases, the opponent targets the low offense ship, drawing fire from your higher offense ships so they can focus fire on the opening, or they push through her defense buff, ignoring her (which can lead to a surviving fang / kihraxz)

They'd normally never fire at just a plain Scyk here, dropping off a higher offense piece. The difference being, if you bring another p.s. 1 - 2 mook and have a higher offense overall, serrisu is likely to get her first contact shot off at high p.s. While a full 5x fang swarm loses one fang before it fires. You can drop to three ships w serrisu where one is a higher value target like fen Rau - which is more inline with rodent masterminds use.

The proton rocket version is even more sneaky, because with the hull bonus, a range three serrisu behind a rock, or proper joust ranging getting the outside range 3 to range 1 first combat jump leads to a hell of a targetting choice. That squad though is a one trick pony, that will fail if you can't eliminate the necessary targets to make the ship advantage p.s. Disadvantage someththing you can overcome. (Palp aces must Lose both aces before you attempt shuttle with this build, a tallllll order)

It doesn't make up for the fact that these swarm squads overall are just not efficient enough to cut it vs other competitive squads, but they work well enough in casual / store champ play. The mangler Scyk swarm really uses serrisu in the same way, but without that free hull upgrade, it was at an even larger disadvantage than the kihraxz swarm. Now, it too, might function, just never as well as in an ace protection build.

Try double firespray serrisu for funsies!

All of this illustrates well the "dark side" of competitive play. Overall, competitive play is good for the game, but it has the unintended consequence of netlisting, "meta" think, etc. I also thinks it contributes significantly to power creep.

That is not true IMO. People don't need a competitive game to number crunch. Look at Dungeons&Dragons for example. Pure cooperative game that's been number crunched to death almost every edition. As time goes by more and more people begin to realize the numbers behind the game and whether option A is better than option be. In this day and age due to Internet it's almost impossible to not be exposed to the number crunching side of any game, unless you deliberately avoid online communities related to that game.

All of this illustrates well the "dark side" of competitive play. Overall, competitive play is good for the game, but it has the unintended consequence of netlisting, "meta" think, etc. I also thinks it contributes significantly to power creep.

Look at the timing chart that has been released in the latest FAQ. It's getting a little nuts. this game used to be intuitive, fast, and easy to learn. I used to be able to go to a tournament and do alright. Now, I have not been to a tournament in a long time, so I'm really only speculating, but I have a feeling with all the different interactions, there is a much steeper learning curve to competitive play, which I think might make it much more daunting for a new player to break into.

I'm happy to stick to casual play for this reason, but I'm glad competitve play is still a thing.

In my gaming group lots of ships see the the table because people want to fly them. Are they uber optimized lists? usually not. But we fly and have fun anyway.

Just a random observation. I need to head to a tourney again to see what its like now.

Whats bad for the game is the group think that comes out of places like these forums. The M3A itself was completely dismissed as a ship here and i read repeatedly how nonviable and useless it was, yet somehow i won a tournament with one? (before the fix of course)

Do you know how many times i have needed to reference the timing chart? once and i was glad it was there because otherwise we would just have to guess at the interaction. The timing chart did not make things more complicated, it provided a quick way to get an answer when i timing issue came up, and that was pretty rare. Therefore making the game less complicated.

I don't think i have ever heard someone saying a simple chart to look up and clarify something as making something more complicated. Its still extremely fast and intuitive game and for the few times its not there is a nice little chart to keep it simple and organized instead of someone randomly guessing at what they think the interaction would be.

But people who actually know what they're doing, on the other hand...

Your childish 90's netlisting is evil and WAAC boo hoo rant aside, people who 'actually know what they're doing' have long ago realized that there are some ships/upgrades in this game that just aren't worth it from a purely mechanical standpoint, either because other ships do what they do better, or because what those ships do well is just not viable in game at a given point.

I don't understand the blind hatred towards net list, in any game with a luck based variable people are inevitably going to crunch the numbers to reduce that variable. Yes, they do occasionally miss something that would otherwise work due to herd mentality. I believe that's the exception, not the rule. Some things are just rendered inferior by something that full fills the same exact role, but better.

I don't really have a problem with "netlisting" people. What I dislike is the herd mentality that many people take. The idea that the "experts" out there have already tried out all the ships and it's "a clear fact" that no one uses certain ships at the high tables and they are therefore bad. My perfect example is the Tie Defender. Everyone ruled it out. Biophysical practiced at home on his own with them against all the meta lists. He "got gud". Biophysical took them to major events and did very well. He didn't outright win, but he was at the top tables. Oh, but that's just some freak of nature and just one guy. It took a while, but a few other people started to take Tie Defenders to major events and did well with them, too. I see it that maybe it wasn't as bad a ship as people said. That it took some time to learn it and practice with it against the meta. Once you figured it out, you could do well with it.

Part of being good is knowing your own list and how to fly it. I think learning how to fly ships in your list goes a long way to being good with a ship. Here's another example:

The Starviper was ruled out as well. I did practice with it and talked to some other guys who played with it. At the time, most of us die hards used Xizor and 5 Z-95's. There were a few guys in the UK that ended up placing in the Top 4 at major events with the Xizor. It wasn't the US and didn't get much attention, but it happened. I took it to Regionals and if my dice hadn't just gone so dang cold in the last game, I would've placed in Top 16. Even my opponent said he almost felt bad for me.

I believe that not enough people really try ships out enough before they decry it Dead On Arrival. I think there are enough examples of players out there that have done incredibly well with crazy ships. Aren't the guys at Spanish Nationals always doing odd stuff at the high tables? Sometimes a specific ship speaks to a player in a way that they can fly it better than others. They just get it. With practice against the big lists and good list building, they can make a ship shine well in their specific list. What I dislike is the idea that some ships are listed as bad and should never be taken. I think that sometimes it's just a matter of the right person using it in the right list (with a lot of practice).

Just as a side point, there are places for cheap, generic ships that fill a role in a list. Take a blocking Z-95. Look at a TLT Y-wing. These guys are no glamour or considered "amazing", but they fill a role in a list for other ships to flesh out. The Ion Heavy Scyk can easily fit into this role. It's 19 pts for a ship that isn't as horrible at the mathwing as it used to be. It fires late in the turn at R 1-3 with 3 red dice to Ionize someone. He's not the high priority target most of the time. He can really help out a list. It's a generic support ship. This type of a ship can be in a list that makes it to the top tables. I think people should consider this aspect when they say they will never see it at the top tables.

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OK...enough about debating that stuff.

As I said above, I think the 19 pt PS 2 Ion Cannon Heavy Scyk is a great ship to throw into many lists.

As for Serrisu, I do agree that she works the opposite of Howlrunner. Howlrunner works best with more allies near her shooting. Serrisu works when more enemy are shooting those around her. I want to consider her a support ship, to be honest. You don't really want to load her up with too much as she doesn't work on herself. She just becomes the target. Put her in a list with some high value targets that she wants to support. The free re-roll on green dice is pretty good as we know green dice suck. Also, if you have someone that abuses the action sequences and often has a Focus token to spend for defense, then it's a good deal. We all know the green die sucks. There aren't that many successes. There are too many blanks. Being able to re-roll a blank and hope you get a Evade or a Focus is good enough, though, as it's 5/8's of a die. THAT is worth it.

Personally, I would go with only enough stuff to make her cheap. I see:

Serissu (20)

Tractor Beam (1)

"Heavy Scyk" Interceptor (Cannon) (2)

Total: 23

That's 23 pts for a ship that doesn't have too hard a time staying in R1 of a specific ship.

She has room for an EPT. Personally, I would either go with Attani Mindlink, VI, or Juke. Mindlink we all know about and it requires someone else with Mindlink, as well. Let me think about Juke, though. I think it works in this particular role very well.

Evade action is good on Serrisu all the time as she wants to be defensive, just in case someone is shooting at her instead of the high value target she is protecting. PS 8 is pretty good and there are only a few ships that are higher than her in the whole game. She fires before many ships. She can strip their tokens with 3 red dice and the thread of a Tractor Beam. Yes, Stealth Soontir will be able to avoid that, but what about other ships? They might have to spend that Focus token that they have. Even just forcing them to spend that token is worth it for her. If she does hit, she gives other ships a -1 green die for the target. Possibly even gets to move someone into a better position. She gets to keep her Evade token for defense.

Oh, but there are lot's of PS 9 aces or PS 8 that have initiative in the game! What about them? Well...maybe they already spent their Focus token already! It's quite possible that they just spent their juice to really put the hurt on someone.

Veteran Instincts is also a good option for Serrisu. She moves after everyone else. She won't bump or give away the position of the other ship she's trying to protect. She can try to maneuver around someone that is trying to arc dodge the person you are protecting. She fires before everyone. She can strip tokens or get that Tractor Beam token on someone before anyone fires.

It is a crying shame that Laetin doesn't have an EPT. He would be freakin' amazing and we would've seen him on the tables. He probably would be in that "broken" category of the top tables.

That's a fair point, some people do just write a ship off completely because of common opinion. I think some of this is is because in any wargame no one wants to waste money on a dust collector. This ain't as bad in X-wing seeing as it's rather cheap compared to alternate games, plus there's vassal, but it's still a factor. In the case of top tier competitive list I've noticed a trend of list with high predictability. Like your listed example of a Xizor list, it's not that it can't compete with against net list with just average rolls, it's that one string of badluck can doom it. Most competitive list are a bit less prone to this due to token stacking, ridiculous mobility, high health, or the ever present Palpatine. TLT has outstanding damage because it's consistent. You're not gonna get any crazy 3-4 damage turns, but you'll rarely do less then 1 or 2 damage.

In my own case I just look at what I want the ship to do and what competition it has in the same price range. On a flip of the coin as you don't care for when someone blindly writes off a ship I think there is also a case for not blindly falling in love with it either. As I broke down in a previous post the base Scyk compared to other options at the same price range is still rather lacking. For a Scyk to be useful in a list over other options you need it to really be able to capitalize on the special effects of the cannons. This is not improbable, we have ships and upgrades that capitalize on this such as Ketsu and Dace. But if you're not using these options then how useful is the effect on its own merit? How often would you rather have the tractor effect then a hit or crit? I'm sure it has its moments but how often does it come up?

Obviously this would also boil down to what your regular opposition looks like, but to me this just makes it a little too niche. We don't have side boards in X-wing so IMO you need something that will reliably be useful for every match. By this logic the unique pilots would need to have powerful enough effects to make up for the deficiency of the platform. Laetin would be a great little ship if we could put a EPT on it to gain some action efficiency, but without that option the ship is still prone to fickle green dice and thus you may end up paying a tax for something that never gets used. My argument against Serissu remains the same, what are you giving up to use her? She's a 3 point tax over a generic model, that means you should be comparing her effect to what else you could be getting for that 3 points. Will you use her ability more then something like Dengar or Predator?

That's the crutch of it. If i put her with 2 wing mates how often will she activate in an average game? She can't keep up with a Ace like Fenn, so no promises she'll ever proc on him. You could roll her with a YV-666 or G1-A, but she lacks the health to survive a joust so you're likely to lose her in the initial engagement thus not gaining any value on the tax you payed for her ability. Saying she is comparable to Biggs is being disingenuous. Biggs will survive multiple shots even with the worse of luck, Serissu is reliant on luck. Biggs also dosen't allow your opponent a choice, that's a rather key difference. At the end of the day what you're paying for is the possibility of rerolling a single green die, the root of the argument is if that's worth 3 points and a inefficient ship.

As I said before it might be worth it if you're planning to run cheap independent ships and making the center of the map a furball. Under such a situation the opponent may have a difficult time focusing any one ship down at a time maximizing your chances to use the ability. Obviously you wouldn't run it in formation, but swarms don't all need to be ran the same way as a Howlrunner block. Even then I'm not sure if the ship would be worth bothering with over another ship with better stats and/or dial.

If FFG is still feeling FAQ happy can we at least agree that Serissu should be effected by her own ability and Laetin should get a EPT?

Serissu is fine as is now, might even be a little OP if you allowed her to affect herself? But yeah Laetin should definitely get an EPT.

In the list presented before, HLC Serissu + Manaroo + Fenn Rau mindlinked. Here serissu is a threat on her own but she can also babysit manaroo (if the enemy pick on manaroo serissu can easily keep up) but on the other hand if she's keeping up with fenn and fenn tries to take on the world, that re-roll is very handy.

I find with Serissu she's best used as a PS8 HLC shot first. Her ability is invaluable on the merge - after that, if it triggers, great, but I won't pass up a HLC shot to get her in range 1. She's just the right level of annoying - with stealth device, a focus and evade she's pretty hard to hit especially at range. Manaroo is tempting to clear off the board first to stop the support but with serissu in range is a bit harder to kill. Fenn is the real damage dealer but if you don't get rid of serissu is near unkillable with stealth device even (or especially) at range 1. If serissu gets hammered first, oh well. She'll get some licks in with her HLC and she'll take some killing.