Whatever your list, force them to turn.

The best defender pilots still cap at 8 PS in general, well flown aces can arc dodge them, just don't let yourself be caught in their K-turn web.

Rebel swarm or Rebel regen can weather the storm and turn the heat back on the defenders.

Place asteroids to block straight flight paths (So if you want to fly a ship across the middle of the table it will need to turn at least once to avoid an asteroid), keep the flight blocking asteroids roughly 3 move range appart from the others (basically try to make a W shaped asteroid formation).

Quoted for the truth.

Back to the original topic - a pal of mine has a 100% record against triple defenders with Whisper, Echo and an academy tie. Something like 15-0 and at decent tournament level. Phantoms are uniquely placed to hit through the token stacks and get into positions defenders find awkward.

Can we get that list?

I was able to fit Whisper, Echo, and a Black Crack Tie into a list, with a 3-point bid but I've never played it. I'd like to see your friend's tested list.

I think party bus and Rau lists will be very strong against Defenders. I would think this list would fare pretty well.

Fenn Rau (34)
Protectorate Starfighter (28), Push the Limit (3), Concord Dawn Protector (1), Autothrusters (2)

Palob Godalhi (26)
HWK-290 (20), Adaptability (0), Twin Laser Turret (6)

Bossk (40)
YV-666 (35), Adaptability (0), 4-LOM (1), Zuckuss (1), Dengar (3)

Rau should be able to punish anyone trying to sneak up behind Bossk. Palob is an annoyance. Bossk hits like a truck. Rau is a closer. I even like that point scarcity requires adaptability. Allows for some finessing of pilot skill depending on match-up.

TLT spam is actually rough on defenders, they only have greens and an evade, no thrusters, so if 4 tlt ywings shoot them in one turn it stands a good chance of killing a defender fully. Defenders also can struggle with range control so try to engage at the ranges best for you.

Sure but like...I just did the math, the average damage here should be like 4.5. The first TLT strips tokens and expected damage is way down, and the other Y-Wings average like, 1.3 damage each.

That said, if the Defenders come in hot (land in R1 or R2 of initial engagement), they can also roll hot dice and take out a Y-Wing before it ever fires, which will in turn make for a pretty one sided match.

Also, don't the Defenders have more range control than the Y-Wings in this match-up? Or is that false since like, the obligatory 4-K is predictable?

Your analysis seems a little one sided. Why would you average the hits for a Y wing with tlt and then compare that to the possibility of the defenders coming in with hot dice to wipe a y wing on the initial engagement? Either compare average for both or hot dice for both. Also, I don't know if they specified rebel vs scum y wings but syndicate thugs with unhinged astromech could have amazing range control in this type of match up

bombs ...... and stress

sabine bombs do shred the poor guys

2 health isn't a whole lot more over the inquisitor, and they really don't like conners

sabine bombs do shred the poor guys

2 health isn't a whole lot more over the inquisitor, and they really don't like conners

This is all true, and everything, but the main issue with three Defenders is that it's easy to kill one with your various expendables, like Bombs, Crack Shot, or Missiles, but it gets progressively harder to kill the remaining ones after the expendables have been used.

Easier to murder a defender post 2 damage net, though, esp since you probably have a TLT around somewhere (Kwings and all)

Even the poor x7 cant evade off an ion move

Your analysis seems a little one sided. Why would you average the hits for a Y wing with tlt and then compare that to the possibility of the defenders coming in with hot dice to wipe a y wing on the initial engagement? Either compare average for both or hot dice for both. Also, I don't know if they specified rebel vs scum y wings but syndicate thugs with unhinged astromech could have amazing range control in this type of match up

My conclusion is not that the Defenders would win. I was mostly just posting the fact that Defenders can kill a TLT Y-Wing before it fires to contrast your assertion that TLT Y-Wings have a "good chance" of killing a TIE Defender in one round of firing (which they do not).

The real likelihood is that there will be no ship explosions in Round 1 (though the Defenders stand a better chance of accomplishing this than the Y-Wings do, especially if they're triple Crackshot Defenders, which is a thing), but that the weakened Y-Wing will blow up first in Round 2 of combat followed by the weakened Defender, after which I think the Defenders have most of the range control, since they move after the Y-Wings and can barrel roll.

I don't think this is a terrible match-up for the TLTs, but I'm pretty sure that the Defenders have the edge, which is why I found it odd that you'd posit this as an optimal solution for dealing with Trip Defenders.

Just my two cents.

Interestingly enough I posted the initial statement of 4 tlt being rough on defenders (note the dinosaur profile picture compared to greedo). I never mention 4 tlt being optimal, just a rough matchup for defenders. Sure there are chances of defenders killing a ywing in 1 round of combat but that would require rolls to go approximately perfectly in their favor since they can, assuming range 2-3, do a maximum of 9 damage to an 8 health ship. The y wings in return mostly just drown the defenders in rolls as 3v3 favors red dice. Ywings should then attempt to send the wounded of their number to either block if possible or turn off and let the other wings cover the defender's chase. The ability to shoot at range 3 out of arc shouldn't be underestimated as it will be more difficult for the defenders to consistently avoid shots while the y wings can turn with little care for facing. It's likely to be a close fight and piloting errors or lucky dice will punish the y wings more heavily but the longevity in my mind definitely goes to the tlt list as it can just throw massive numbers of dice and abuse the power of a turret.

I have a league match this weekend against three Defenders so this discussion is super important. Please keep posting.

I'm really torn between running a PS-dominant list or (pre-nerf) TLT Kanan+Ezra with Biggs.

Thoughts?

Kanan Biggs is solid just be careful that with Biggs because Kanan vs. 3 defenders will be bad for you. If you go the ace route I'd suggest a Carnor Jax based palp aces list as likely to be solid.

Kanan Biggs is solid just be careful that with Biggs because Kanan vs. 3 defenders will be bad for you. If you go the ace route I'd suggest a Carnor Jax based palp aces list as likely to be solid.

I worry about that, too. Kanan can probably get focused down in a matter of 3-4 rounds once Biggs is gone and Kanan struggles to proc his ability.

I wonder what the math is for 4 TLT shots against a single Defender with one evade?

I wonder what the math is for 4 TLT shots against a single Defender with one evade?

I feel like I did really comparable math earlier in this thread already...

Either way, as for your Kanan + Biggs list, rather than docked Shuttle + TLT on Kanan, don't you think you'd be better off just putting an autoblaster Turret on Kanan and flying a TLT Y-Wing, so you can get that extra set of TLT shots but still have the super sweet autoblaster turret, which is a known beating to Imperials?

..while we're at it, can't we just add a stressbot to that TLT Y-Wing to add yet another Imperial inhibitor, who's especially vexing to autothruster aces and Countess?

If you forgo the title, the Y-Wing can't double stress, but the single stress is still plenty threatening, and your Y-Wing can still shoot behind himself after the initial pass. The single stress can also help Kanan to catch people in his ABT zone. You could also pull the Flechette Torpedo to make this Stress Y-Wings a Stressmule (ARC) instead. Pew, pew!

I'll echo the Homing Missiles. Stopping their free evade is huge. My first foray into Defenders I lost a lot of enthusiasm for them as my friend ran Miranda with Homers further boosted by Jan. 6 Dice Homing Missile kind of broke my spirit.

Is Chopper on Kanan to guarantee focus?

How do you feel about the double-edged sword that is Zeb?

How do you feel about the double-edged sword that is Zeb?

Zeb might have a place on a Chopper build where you deliberately set out to ram opposing ships. On the whole though I am against Zeb for 2 reasons:

1. The Ghost is normally outnumbered (especially if you are keeping the shuttle docked to fire the turret). This means that a bumping Ghost is more likely to still have targets to shoot at than the ship it is bumping (especially with the turret and rear arc in play). This means you are more likely to deny an enemy a turn of shooting with a ship while the Ghost still has plenty of fish in the sea to shoot at. Your opponent usually loses more from the bump than you do meaning Zeb is actually an hindrance rather than a help. This is not a hard-and-fast rule and there are exceptions but more often than not, it is better to deny your opponent a shot at the Ghost.

2. There are so many other great crew that work well on the Ghost. With only 2 crew slots, space on the Ghost is at a premium and I can almost always find someone who works better than Zeb. Hera on the Lothal rebel, Rec Spec and Lando on Kanan, Navigator and Nien on Hera. The one exception is Chopper where Zeb may have a place.

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Run Super Dash and Miranda and auto win vs defenders.

Run Super Dash and Miranda and auto win vs defenders.

Haha, explain.

This is going to sound dumb but just focus fire them. The free evade is very good but that only works on one attack. They don't have autothrusters or anything special on defense if there are 3 so just punch them. You should be careful on approach obviously since their plan will be similarly on focus fire.

TLT spam is actually rough on defenders, they only have greens and an evade, no thrusters, so if 4 tlt ywings shoot them in one turn it stands a good chance of killing a defender fully. Defenders also can struggle with range control so try to engage at the ranges best for you.

Hold on, 4 TLT Y-Wings is just gonna do four damage. That's still two hitpoints TIE Defenders can't lose in that attack.

This is going to sound dumb but just focus fire them. The free evade is very good but that only works on one attack. They don't have autothrusters or anything special on defense if there are 3 so just punch them. You should be careful on approach obviously since their plan will be similarly on focus fire.

TLT spam is actually rough on defenders, they only have greens and an evade, no thrusters, so if 4 tlt ywings shoot them in one turn it stands a good chance of killing a defender fully. Defenders also can struggle with range control so try to engage at the ranges best for you.

Hold on, 4 TLT Y-Wings is just gonna do four damage. That's still two hitpoints TIE Defenders can't lose in that attack.

The 4 TLT Y-wings can do up to 8 dmg combined (2 dmg/TLT turret upgrade)

I think party bus and Rau lists will be very strong against Defenders.

Have to 100% agree with this. I have tested a Trandoshan Slaver party bus + Bump master + PTL Fenn against Defenders with Omega Leader, and boy, was that a beat down.

These 3 ships work really very well together.

Bump master is the best blocker in the game, and blocking works wonders against Defenders.

And with Party bus being the huge threat, Fenn gets a free rein in the rear and delivers finishing blows left and right.

Same thought with Manaroo+Partybus+Fenn

This is going to sound dumb but just focus fire them. The free evade is very good but that only works on one attack. They don't have autothrusters or anything special on defense if there are 3 so just punch them. You should be careful on approach obviously since their plan will be similarly on focus fire.

TLT spam is actually rough on defenders, they only have greens and an evade, no thrusters, so if 4 tlt ywings shoot them in one turn it stands a good chance of killing a defender fully. Defenders also can struggle with range control so try to engage at the ranges best for you.

Hold on, 4 TLT Y-Wings is just gonna do four damage. That's still two hitpoints TIE Defenders can't lose in that attack.

The 4 TLT Y-wings can do up to 8 dmg combined (2 dmg/TLT turret upgrade)

QFT, and also as a way to edge in on the TLT v Defender debate.

I reckon it favours the defenders personally. 4 TLTs are capable of 8 damage a turn, but are unlikely to get it against defenders. Depending on the defenders ability to get within range 1 of one of the TLTs (which, contrary to the above quote, I'd argue they're not going to struggle to do against Y-wings), they're throwing anywhere between 9 and 12 modified dice at a 1 agility 8hp ship - might not melt it first turn of shooting, but almost certainly will 2nd turn and put a few wounds onto another.

Then you're down to 6 potential damage(more like 3-4 a turn. Maybe you manage to bump off a defender at that point, but you've still got 6-8 modded dice coming back at your already wounded TLT, probbably knocking that off.

Then you're down to 4 potential damage a turn. If you're lucky you've got a 2nd defender on its arse and ready to die, but 6-8 modded dice will cripple one of your remaining Y-wings, so even if you bump off that 2nd defender you've then got a Y-wing that'll be dead the following turn.

Then it's 1 TLT vs a Defender. I'll take the Defender in that fight all day long.

Now, this is obviously one big hypothetical hoo-hah, and individual player skill and the occasional rub-of-the-dice is critical either way (as it is in most games of X-wing), but I honestly think that, in a game of equal skill, 3 defenders have the edge over 4 TLTs.

That's my take on it anyway, I have done absolutely no proper maths to work out the likelihood of 4 TLTs killing a defender or 3 defenders killing a TLT, just a rough idea in my head of what 3-4 dice attacks do to 1 agility targets, vs what 3 dice attacks do to 3 agility targets with evade and possibly focus.

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