so I was browsing armada warlords to see all the currently available upgrades and yeah, engineering teams go high on the list of cards that don't do much. I think FFG just lacked inspiration here. They could have done something similar to Nav teams, as in increasing the value of engineering points (say, 2 engie points repair 1 hull for example). Right now, 6 rounds don't warrant spending too many commands on repairs. Correlian conflict might change that though...

Slaved turrets, I think, would be better if you were only allowed to attacks ships once per round (can't think of critical damage effect name). Significantly. I think that would make a real difference, especially on a ship with wide broadsides for catching a lot of squadrons, like Salvation.

so I was browsing armada warlords to see all the currently available upgrades and yeah, engineering teams go high on the list of cards that don't do much. I think FFG just lacked inspiration here. They could have done something similar to Nav teams, as in increasing the value of engineering points (say, 2 engie points repair 1 hull for example). Right now, 6 rounds don't warrant much time spent on repairs. Correlian conflict might change that though...

Great point about the campaign application. However, engineering teams work very well with tokens on command 3+ ships. Veteran captains, comms net, Tantive, Garm/tarkin... granted those involve opportunity cost, but they offer great defensive flexibility.

Slaved turrets, I think, would be better if you were only allowed to attacks ships once per round (can't think of critical damage effect name). Significantly. I think that would make a real difference, especially on a ship with wide broadsides for catching a lot of squadrons, like Salvation.

you mean that slaved turrets would let you use your AA batteries?

slaved turrets on a vic 1 is great. I play a 3 vic/demo fleet where 2 of the vics have spinal and the third has slaved. Chances of getting double arcs with all 3 vics is typically slim and honestly spamming cf for 5 reds every shot with vader for rerolls and intel officer on all the vics is more fun than I thought it would be.

As for that turd of a card Cluster Bombs, its gonna be good for campaign, but I always thought it should be an actual cluster bomb. like it hits the target for whatever damage and then every squad in range 1 for 1 blue die of damage or something and then it becomes a very good card for bomber ball defense.

Woah! Slaved turrets combine well with Ackbar, Salvation and Vics. At least it doesnt cost you 2 pts in damage when you can no longer evade...

yes, but doesn't it feel a bit situational? A lot of upgrades are good anywhere anytime. For 6 points? I'd take Spinal Armaments for 9 anytime of the year.

Cool. I will flank you then.

Your intent is so blatantly signposted with spinal armaments which is the ultimate cost. And on top of that they are 9pts.

you say that, and I agree to an extent, but when is the last time you saw slaved turrets used? They're good on Salvation, sure, but SA kind of took its place. But, perhaps I was being too aggressive when I said ST are a good 2nd contender for cards with too many restrictions. Honestly, only a slight cost decrease to 5 points would make me consider taking it instead of SA.

And that is why the DTT will be the new turbo mod of choice

Seems ffg values red dice at a premium, and so think giving out one raw extra red dice to fire in any direction needs nerfing.

ST weakness is that it actually makes a ship more vulnerable to squadrons

Perhaps they should just limit it to attacks against a ship

"You cannot attack ships more than once per round"

This still lets it self-defend against fighters. I may not always be in arc to fire at two ships but I most certainly will make squadrons think twice if they know I can still shoot them.

After all, slaving my turbolaser turrets should not stop my anti-fighter guns from working

(Afterthought: Or maybe instead, "While attacking a ship, add 1 black die to your attack pool.")

slaved turrets on a vic 1 is great. I play a 3 vic/demo fleet where 2 of the vics have spinal and the third has slaved. Chances of getting double arcs with all 3 vics is typically slim and honestly spamming cf for 5 reds every shot with vader for rerolls and intel officer on all the vics is more fun than I thought it would be.

As for that turd of a card Cluster Bombs, its gonna be good for campaign, but I always thought it should be an actual cluster bomb. like it hits the target for whatever damage and then every squad in range 1 for 1 blue die of damage or something and then it becomes a very good card for bomber ball defense.

Don't forget that cluster bombs counts crits as damage also, unlike PDR or QLT. That's an average of 3 damage when it is used. 0.75 chance to hit on each blue die also means overall higher consistency than usual squadron blue die. As well as the fact that this card can react to squadrons bombing you via rhymer's ability. PDR and QLT are spread damage over time and over squadrons, whereas this card is spike damage to a single squadron. Works quite well on uniques as it goes through defense tokens, and you can choose when to activate it so you can wait for them to come.

One thing to note is that I should not expect this upgrade to protect my ships from squadrons. Using this in conjunction with my own squadrons is key. By the time the enemy squadrons reach my ships they should be hurt enough that a cluster bomb will likely finish them off.

I think this card works well on it's lore ship, the mc30c. AP is useless due to XI7 everywhere and ECM is not really needed because of token redundancy. CB can boost mc30c's poor anti-squadron armament and it's squadron self-defense. Cluster bombs really should be packaged in mc30c and redundant shields in mc80.

EDIT: It is an actual cluster bomb. Because we are using squadrons. The cluster bombs hit all the starfighters in that particular squadron, and some are destroyed some are damaged. This is represented by that single squadron wing on the board taking damage. But yes I agree that something along your idea might be nice to counter Area-Of-Effect units like Rhymer.

There's only one upgrade that is actually a downgrade.

Slaved Turrets. So bad.

Or you can attack a squadron for an extra die.

No. "While attacking a ship..."

I'm guessing you didn't read the FAQ, it is an either/or statement but it reads:

"

Slaved Turrets

If a ship with this card equipped attacks a

squadron, it can declare additional squadron

targets during its attack"

Slaved turrets, I think, would be better if you were only allowed to attacks ships once per round (can't think of critical damage effect name). Significantly. I think that would make a real difference, especially on a ship with wide broadsides for catching a lot of squadrons, like Salvation.

you mean that slaved turrets would let you use your AA batteries?

Yes, you can use slaved turrets to add an extra die to your AA attack, provided you haven't attacked that turn.

Slaved turrets, I think, would be better if you were only allowed to attacks ships once per round (can't think of critical damage effect name). Significantly. I think that would make a real difference, especially on a ship with wide broadsides for catching a lot of squadrons, like Salvation.

you mean that slaved turrets would let you use your AA batteries?

Yes, you can use slaved turrets to add an extra die to your AA attack, provided you haven't attacked that turn.

No it does not.

Slaved turrets adds 1 red dice "while attacking a ship"

It does not add red dice to anti squadron attacks.

Slaved turrets also prevents attacking from more than 1 hull zone per turn. (And no advanced gunnery)

You may attack squadrons from one hull zone as your attack that turn. You may attack all squadrons in one arc as per a normal single hull zone squadron attack. This is what the faq refers to.

Tactical experts

6pts to get a concentrate fire order on demand

Not all flexible order officer upgrades are created equal. Maybe if it was 2-3 points it wouldn't be utter garbage?

I'll see you and raise you the other 3 offices in that category.

6 points? For what???

To compensate for laziness is what.

Esp. now that we shave SFOs - for 1 point you can fish up a key command just when you need it.

so I was browsing armada warlords to see all the currently available upgrades and yeah, engineering teams go high on the list of cards that don't do much. I think FFG just lacked inspiration here. They could have done something similar to Nav teams, as in increasing the value of engineering points (say, 2 engie points repair 1 hull for example). Right now, 6 rounds don't warrant spending too many commands on repairs. Correlian conflict might change that though...

I use Engi teams in a couple of builds, and they will defanitly seen use in the campaign. I pair an MC80AC with a CR90 w/ Leia+Tantive IV. Means when I need it, the MC80 gets 7 (8 if I have Redpemtion up, which I do what my tank fleet) That's alot of repaire at once, and Leia lets me do it right when I need it. The one extra point has made a difference for me in more then one game.

Tactical experts

6pts to get a concentrate fire order on demand

Not all flexible order officer upgrades are created equal. Maybe if it was 2-3 points it wouldn't be utter garbage?

I'll see you and raise you the other 3 offices in that category.

6 points? For what???

To compensate for laziness is what.

Esp. now that we shave SFOs - for 1 point you can fish up a key command just when you need it.

Nope. Not once.

There's only one upgrade that is actually a downgrade.

Slaved Turrets. So bad.

Or you can attack a squadron for an extra die.

No. "While attacking a ship..."

I'm guessing you didn't read the FAQ,

The irony is delicious.

Yes, you can use slaved turrets to add an extra die to your AA attack, provided you haven't attacked that turn.

The FAQ in no way indicates that you may apply ST to an anti squadron attack. In fact, that would be an errata, as the card text explicitly specifies that it may be applied only to ships. The FAQ ONLY clarified that the one attack per round restriction still allows you to attack every squadron in arc if you choose to use AA instead of your battery armament.

Slaved turrets, I think, would be better if you were only allowed to attacks ships once per round (can't think of critical damage effect name). Significantly. I think that would make a real difference, especially on a ship with wide broadsides for catching a lot of squadrons, like Salvation.

you mean that slaved turrets would let you use your AA batteries?

Yes, you can use slaved turrets to add an extra die to your AA attack, provided you haven't attacked that turn.

For reference, here is the FAQ:

"If a ship with this card equipped attacks a squadron, it can declare additional squadron targets during its attack."

The card says:

Modification

"You cannot attack more than once per round. While attacking a ship, add 1 red die to your attack pool."

Ard is correct on this. You are wrong.

I completely understand how Cluster Bombs work. You will never convince me they are a good upgrade in tournament play.

If you can sit there with a straight face and tell me cluster bombs are better than taking ECM or EVEN Advanced Projectors remind me to not take investment advice from you.

It's a garbage upgrade that is over-costed, uses a precious upgrade slot and is discard on use! Add the upfront cost plus opportunity cost and compare to utility and it equals: a turd.

I'm with Ardaedhel here. Slaved Turrets is so bad that you'd be better off ripping up the card and just keeping the points for a bid in literally every situation (Salvation included!) where you can take it. The restriction on that card is so painful I'm not sure I'd put it on anything even if it were zero points.

I would disagree with you here. There are some builds (VSD1 with Vader is the one I envision) where slaved turrets are useful as a way to save on points compared to Spinal Armament.

I'm with Ardaedhel here. Slaved Turrets is so bad that you'd be better off ripping up the card and just keeping the points for a bid in literally every situation (Salvation included!) where you can take it. The restriction on that card is so painful I'm not sure I'd put it on anything even if it were zero points.

I would disagree with you here. There are some builds (VSD1 with Vader is the one I envision) where slaved turrets are useful as a way to save on points compared to Spinal Armament.

On the Vassal Team Tourney I was running a kitted ISD-II and two VSD-Is with Tactical Experts and Slaved Turrets. I almost beat GK, who was running a Rieekan build (I think...). I was using Tarkin as my commander, but Vader probably would have been better as my dice abandoned me by turn 3.

If you can sit there with a straight face and tell me cluster bombs are better than taking ECM or EVEN Advanced Projectors remind me to not take investment advice from you.

So we are looking for a ship with redundant defence tokens where advanced projectors isnt particularly beneficial:

Foresight

&

Assault MC80 (With Advanced Projectors already)

*Sits with straight face*

Dont get me wrong, I dont think that Cluster bombs is worth taking in either these situations, but they are better than both ECM and advanced projectors.

I intend to find the sweetspot where cluster bombs are genuinely worthwhile, but so far got nowhere with that endeavour.

Oooooh had a thought.

So we have Admontion and Bright Hope which already have a fair amount of resilience against squads. Now why not put Cluster bombs on their fleet comrades? Especially if you have an assault frigate sitting it out at long range....? Why would a long range Assault frigate need ECM or advanced projectors if there is an MC30 between it and the enemy....

CLUSTER BOMBS!

I'd just like to see Advanced Projectors re-erratad to work against XI7s like they did on the first FAQ. IMO with the amount of damage people can deal out now and the number of ways to get Accuracy, I feel it would put that difficult choice on AP vs ECM again, and increase the stock of Heavy Turbolaser Turrets.

ah! the mods listened to my demand and changed the title, sweet. Thank you mods.

Point Defense Reroute. Just change it to make crit results against squadrons be one damage instead. Turns a crappy card into something actually worthwhile for antisquadron (especially for monsters throwing black AS dice...).

Cluster Bombs needs a boost in it's capabilities, so it effects every squadron at range 1, or some such. And a point drop to maybe 2. It is situational, limited, and takes a slot that literally every other option is better.

I'd just like to see Advanced Projectors re-erratad to work against XI7s like they did on the first FAQ. IMO with the amount of damage people can deal out now and the number of ways to get Accuracy, I feel it would put that difficult choice on AP vs ECM again, and increase the stock of Heavy Turbolaser Turrets.

Eh, I have not been having issues with AP. It's still powerful, it still redirects a point elsewhere. Reaffirming the FAQ/errata would be nice, but that doesn't get away from it being a solid card. On MC30's I take it instead of ECM without hesitation; of course, I use Expanded Launchers on my MC30's, but that's besides the point... :-)