could a large monster move up to a dotted line stop and expand over the line... ? even if there room to expand on his side of the dotted line?
if i was forced to expand over a dotted line.. with my next move can I move from the other side of the dotted line?
think it was tile 80.. wooden platform on a sludge river... that made me ask this..
Yes you can. However you can only expand a large monster when interrupting their movement action to perform another action that is valid from the original space.
So you can not arbitrarily expand the monster across the elevation line, and then finish your move from the new space, and then attack. Nor can you interrupt the movement to attack a hero across the elevation line unless you are able to attack them from the original space.
(although I think if the attack is valid from the original space, you can expand across the line, and then as long as the attack is still valid from the expanded space, avoid having the hero roll the additional black defence)
According to FAQ 1.6 move actions can be interrupted with other move action. Move actions can also be interrupted with other actions. I can hardly imagine any difficulty for large monsters with elevations. They can pass elevations whenever they interrupt a movement on it, extend on the other side, do an action (move, attack, anything else) then shrink and continuing the movement on the other side. I don't know if this was the intention for large monsters and elevations originally but this is what it is according to rules, FAQ and BGG non official FAQ.
That's correct. The only limiting factors really are:
- the monster must have a valid reason to expand (you cannot interrupt movement without an interfering trigger)
- there must be room for the monster to expand (if the monster's base doesn't fit on the map, it may not interrupt or end its movement.)
Edited by Zaltyre
This has always been a bit odd for me, since this explanation seems to assert that you can only spend movement points during a move action, which (in the case of heroes at least) we know is not true (movement points gained from fatigue or from other sources can be spent at any point during the turn, even if no movement action was taken that turn).
However in the case of large monsters, it appears they may 'interrupt' a movement action to perform another action, but may not 'end' a movement action, and then spend any leftover movement points.
If they 'could' spend unspent points, then they could certainly move up to the elevation line, end their movement (to expand), attack (only valid after expanding), then spend the unspent movement.
(again this is not allowed)
The alternative here is that you must perform a movement action in order to SPEND any movement points, and points must be used during that action, but (of course) that movement action may be interrupted in order to perform another action. Applying the same rule to the heroes, would mean that a hero could only spend fatigue to gain movement points in order to EXTEND a movement action, rather than moving without one..... (again, they are not restricted like that).... sigh, rules...
10 minutes ago, Silidus said:If they 'could' spend unspent points, then they could certainly move up to the elevation line, end their movement (to expand), attack (only valid after expanding), then spend the unspent movement.
(again this is not allowed)
What you are describing is allowed.
Say for example a large monster has a speed of 3. It may spend a single movement point, then expand and Attack a hero, then spend its remaining 2 movement points to move, then expand again.
The only restriction is that in order to expand the monster must either finish their activation or perform another action (it can even be another move action!). The movement points gained from their move action remains in their movement pool until the end of their activation (just as with heroes).
Edited by CharmyOn 9/1/2017 at 2:56 PM, Charmy said:What you are describing is allowed.
Say for example a large monster has a speed of 3. It may spend a single movement point, then expand and Attack a hero, then spend its remaining 2 movement points to move, then expand again.
The only restriction is that in order to expand the monster must either finish their activation or perform another action (it can even be another move action!). The movement points gained from their move action remains in their movement pool until the end of their activation (just as with heroes).
It is actually not allowed. When interrupting a movement action to perform another action, the new action **must be valid from the un-expanded space**, so in the example used, you could not interrupt the monsters action to perform an attack, since the attack is not valid (no range) from the other side of the elevation line.
The monster may **end** its movement, then attack, but then would not be allowed to use its remaining movement points to move again after the attack.
Just my 2 cents :
I think your are not talking of the same monster !
I'm ready to bet that Charmy is talking about a Ranged attack Monster
And you Silidus are taking about a Melee attack Monster
For a Ranger Monster he can stop where it wants it just needs to have LOS, of course for a Melee one it must be adjacent to the target to declare it's attack.
19 minutes ago, Felin said:Just my 2 cents :
I think your are not talking of the same monster !
I'm ready to bet that Charmy is talking about a Ranged attack Monster
And you Silidus are taking about a Melee attack Monster
For a Ranger Monster he can stop where it wants it just needs to have LOS, of course for a Melee one it must be adjacent to the target to declare it's attack.
Actually
@Charmy hit on the right idea in his response. When a large monster spends its first movement point, it shrinks, and CAN NOT expand unless it is interrupting its movement to perform an action, or is ending its entire activation.
This somewhat fixes my issue with the use of movement points, since if the monster can only expand when performing an action, or ending its activation, you cant end up with that intermediate state where it ends its "movement" (expanding) but still has extra movement points.
1 hour ago, Silidus said:This somewhat fixes my issue with the use of movement points, since if the monster can only expand when performing an action, or ending its activation, you cant end up with that intermediate state where it ends its "movement" (expanding) but still has extra movement points.
Just to be sure everyone understand the same thing : let's put aside the case of the dotted line from the OP question and take a 1x2 Ranged Monster as a Valid example
Starting position
MMeeeeHee
(123456789 for simplicity I will use the corresponding space numbers M:Monster - H:Hero - e:empty )
Monster declares a move action
schrink to 2
Monster moves 1 space (to 3)
Monster declares an action attack on the Hero (7) and interrupts it's mouvement as it's a Ranged Monster it's valid he can expand
Monster expands to 3-4
Current position
eeMMeeHee
the attack kill the hero
Current position
eeMMeeeee
Monster as yet 2 Mouvements Points and decides to keep it's moving
schrinks to 4
Moves 2 spaces (to 6)
as he has no more points he must stop
He then expands to 6-7
Ending position
eeeeeMMee
Yes with a ranged monster, you can interrupt the movement with an attack action (expand) then continue movement, as long as the attack was valid from the original (unexpanded) square.
What is not allowed is the following (melee monster);
MM e e e H a
MM e e e e b
1 2 3 4 5 6
e = empty space
M = monster
H = Hero
Monster begins move action and shrinks to a2.
Monster moves to a3
Monster moves to a4
Monster 'ends' its movement, expanding to a4, a5, b4, b5
e e e MM H a
e e e MM e b
1 2 3 4 5 6
Monster attacks H.
Monster has 1 remaining movement point, shrinks to a4, and moves to a3, expanding a2, a3, b2, b3;
e MM e e H a
e MM e e e b
1 2 3 4 5 6
Again, this is not allowed because a monster can not expand unless it is ending its entire activation, or, is expanding to perform an action which is valid from its un-expanded location.
Thanks for the explanations Silidus amd Felin, and for confirming to me that I really should get to work finishing a guide to movement.
15 minutes ago, Zaltyre said:Thanks for the explanations Silidus amd Felin, and for confirming to me that I really should get to work finishing a guide to movement.
Well, unless we got it totally wrong, I think its pretty clear from the current CRRG.
The issue is that if you think of moving models, the rules are inconsistent between large and small monsters in terms of when they are allowed to spend movement points.
If a large monster 'shrinks' during a movement (action or otherwise) then it would be able to end its 'movement action' (and expand) at any time and still have left over movement points... which it should be able to still spend later in the turn. --- of course this would mean it could 'double move' by expanding after every square.
If a large monster 'shrinks' at the beginning of its activation, and can not expand until the END of its activation, or to perform an action, then things are slightly more consistent... except that then a large monster would be able to 'shrink' to a single square, then expand in a different direction, without actually performing a movement action.
Ohh here is an example for your guide.
MMM e e e a
MMM H e e b
e e e e e e c
e e e e e e d
e e e H e e e
1 2 3 4 5 6
Monster performs a movement action, shrinking to b3 and gaining 3 movement points.
Monster interrupts movement at b3 (no movement points used), to attack H, expanding to b2, b3, c2, c3, d2, d3
e e e e e e a
e MM H e e b
e MM e e e c
e MM e e e d
e e e H e e e
1 2 3 4 5 6
Monster then continues movement, shrinking down to d3, and continuing movement to e3, f3, f4
Ends activation, expands to f4, f5, g4, g5, h4, h5.
(now if a frenzy card was played, Monster could shrink, expand to attack H at b4, shrink again to d3, expand d2,3, f2,3, attack H at e4, then shrink to f3, then move 3 MORE spaces, then expand.)
The CRRG is great. Sadgit has done a wonderful job putting it together. I'm thinking of a basic example guide more like my range and LOS one.
On 5. 9. 2017 at 4:51 PM, Silidus said:What is not allowed is the following (melee monster);
MM e e e H a
MM e e e e b
1 2 3 4 5 6
e = empty space
M = monster
H = HeroMonster begins move action and shrinks to a2.
Monster moves to a3
Monster moves to a4
Monster 'ends' its movement, expanding to a4, a5, b4, b5
e e e MM H a
e e e MM e b
1 2 3 4 5 6
Monster attacks H.
Monster has 1 remaining movement point, shrinks to a4, and moves to a3, expanding a2, a3, b2, b3;
e MM e e H a
e MM e e e b
1 2 3 4 5 6
Again, this is not allowed because a monster can not expand unless it is ending its entire activation, or, is expanding to perform an action which is valid from its un-expanded location.
But how about this reply from https://rpggeek.com/wiki/page/Descent_Second_Edition_Unofficial_FAQ#toc4
Q: How does interrupting movement to attack interact with large monster movement?
If I understand it correctly, this is a reply just the case you described as not allowed, but here it say it could result in additinal spaces moved. Am I overlooking something?
the problem is not the additional spaces the problem is more linked to which have been specified in the FAQ :
Page 16, “Large Monsters”: Add, “When interrupting a large monster’s
movement to perform an action, the overlord must be able to declare the
action that the large monster will perform before placing the monster’s
figure on the map.”
this means you can't (like in Silidus example, with a melee monter) stop 1 space afar the Hero (with Mouvement Points left), expand to be adjacent, do the attack AND keep moving (with the Mouvement Point left)!
To do the melee attack you must be either adjacent to the target before expanding or having your mouvement action completely finished.
Edit
but even with melee attacks you can 'gain' spaces but it's more situational than with ranged attacks
let's change the Silidus example
MM e e e e e a
MM e e e e e b
e e e H e e e c
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Monster schrinks to b2
moves 1 space to b3
as it is adjacent he can expand to attack
it expands ab/34
e e MM e e e
e e MM e e e
e e e H e e e
After the attack he keeps moving
and schrinks to b4 to move his 2 last spaces
final position
e e e e e MM
e e e e e MM
e e e H e e e
effective spaces moved on the row b : 4
Edited by Felinoh I think I get it.. so you just cannot interrupt the movement until the very moment you are adjecent , right? (for a melee, no reach)
right !