Raider-I, CF, VADER, APT.

Quite the flotilla popper.

I've found that if you dedicate one of the corvettes (either Imperial or Rebel) to killing a corvette, it will die. It seems to average about 2 turns to kill with a TRC90 or an APT Raider. Generally, you squeak through a few damage and then ram it.

IMO opinion it's a bit of a misnomer to think it's a waste to send a 50 point ship after an 18-30 point ship. At it's most basic level, the argument is flawed because since there's nothing stopping you from sending the 50 point ship on afterward to try and help kill something bigger (way easier to do if you start at speed 4 and do nav commands at the right time to get you turned around quickly). More importantly, if it has the commander on it or it's used mainly to push squadrons it's definitely worth it to hunt it actively since it's destruction has a more widespread effect than just losing points.

Yep it's sort of irrelevant how many points worth of ship you send against another ship as long as the target dies and you don't. If your 60 point raider kills a 30 point ship and survives the game your ahead, as long as the rest of you fleet perform as well and you don't fluff the mission you will be up there for a good win.

What about using the Raider as both a Anti-fighter platform and to hunt down 'lifeboat' or Carrier flotillas?

Raider 1: Instigator, Kallus, Sensor Teams, APT = 61 points

Raider 2: Instigator, Kallus, Sensor Teams, SW7 = 65 points

Has the speed to run them down, and blues to bypass Scatter. Thoughts?

In my experience instigator really only works well against fighters as part of a team approach ( then he's brilliant), he needs at least a couple ( four is best) of fighters as escorts (ties will do). This allows you to drive him strait into a bomber ball. Your main aim is to pin the Intel ship in place, this will facilitate you moving your ties in to lock his bombers into a shooting at ties and not instigator, if you don't get this right and lock down his Intel and the majority of his bombers insti can't survive inside a bomber ball and his main impact is lost. Pair him up with a second AAA ship raider ( other title and kallus) and you can then bring in that ship as well. Next round the enemy fighters are going to take the pain. Activate the Second raider and a coupe of ties first next activate instigator and the last of the ties ( if they are alive) at this point you are likely to have an un functioning bomber/ fighter force. You can decide if it's safe to keep it pinned and finish it or bug out.....

What about using the Raider as both a Anti-fighter platform and to hunt down 'lifeboat' or Carrier flotillas?

Raider 1: Instigator, Kallus, Sensor Teams, APT = 61 points

Raider 2: Instigator, Kallus, Sensor Teams, SW7 = 65 points

Has the speed to run them down, and blues to bypass Scatter. Thoughts?

You're spending 60 points to run down ships that cost 30.

And if that was the only thing it could do, it would be a garbage investment. Fortunately, it can also kill squadrons extremely effectively, delay activations, augment attacks against other ships, and kill more than one flotilla in a game.

I use MC30's for this, and they cost way more. That doesn't make them a bad investment--my local opponents hate seeing then across the table. The price of the killing ship vs price of the killed ship isn't really a great measure of effectiveness unless you're actually trading them--which raider vs flotilla you're probably not, all other things being equal.

You'd be right if raider's could last that long or effectively kill floatillas. They can't. (or kill squadrons, because they're capped at two dice. If you choose the wrong raider, they can't even stop the Scatter)

A two blue two black attack has less than a fifty percent chance of getting the accuracy needed to actually hit a floatilla, to say nothing of the four damage required beyond that. If you add a blue (or reroll) to try and get that accuracy the odds go up to about sixty percent but then require you to roll better than average on the dice for the lethal damage. (Rolling four damage on four dice expecting 3.5 damage). If you go for the black, you're still stuck with the sub fifty percent chance at an accuracy, but you get to compensate with expected damage of 3.75. You will notice that this is still less than four.

Just to be clear, I don't disagree with you that the Raider isn't a great flotilla hunter--I don't think it's very efficient at the job without a way to guarantee that accuracy. I was just addressing your reasoning. I think just comparing the costs is only a small part of evaluating a ship for a given role.

@PT106: I roll 5 dice, I get one crit, one hit, one accuracy, and two blanks. VG forces me to re-roll all of it. Not efficient. Screed lets me get another crit (possibly a hit/crit) out of the deal. Vader lets me trade a token to get just the two blanks re-rolled. So not sure VG is the end all be all.

You can spend the acc before rerolling the rest

Modify dice comes before spend accuracy, so I don't think you get to spend the acc before you re-roll it.....

No.

There is no separate "modify" step followed by a "spend accuracy step".

It's all part of the same modify step, and you decide the order.

Roll.

Spend Acc.

Reroll w/ Vet Gunners

Acc doesn't get rerolled - it's been spent, so is no longer in the pool.

Where does it say spending accuracy removes them from the pool?

In the rules :-D

On a more serious note, a dice is gone after it's been spent. Not just accs. Any kind of spend.

Can you specify the page? It says you spend the icon, but as we know with cards like Screed and Warlord, icons are not dice.

Should only need 3.

There's no excuse not to ram it to death afterwards, since, y'know, it doesn't hurt you.

What are the odds you chose the correct speed and they maneuvered themselves into the correct position?

@PT106: I roll 5 dice, I get one crit, one hit, one accuracy, and two blanks. VG forces me to re-roll all of it. Not efficient. Screed lets me get another crit (possibly a hit/crit) out of the deal. Vader lets me trade a token to get just the two blanks re-rolled. So not sure VG is the end all be all.

You can spend the acc before rerolling the rest

Modify dice comes before spend accuracy, so I don't think you get to spend the acc before you re-roll it.....

No.

There is no separate "modify" step followed by a "spend accuracy step".

It's all part of the same modify step, and you decide the order.

Roll.

Spend Acc.

Reroll w/ Vet Gunners

Acc doesn't get rerolled - it's been spent, so is no longer in the pool.

Where does it say spending accuracy removes them from the pool?

In the rules :-D

On a more serious note, a dice is gone after it's been spent. Not just accs. Any kind of spend.

Can you specify the page? It says you spend the icon, but as we know with cards like Screed and Warlord, icons are not dice.

Page 2, Resolve Attack Effects

Page 5, Dice Icons

Page 6, Modifying Dice

That last one says if you spend an icon you spend the die. Which is a good thing, as otherwise we'd have to cut up our dice much too often to spend just an icon

Should only need 3.

There's no excuse not to ram it to death afterwards, since, y'know, it doesn't hurt you.

What are the odds you chose the correct speed and they maneuvered themselves into the correct position?

Pretty **** good, usually, since the Raider is kind of maneuverable.

I suck with Rolling Dice. But Maneuver, that **** I can plan.

With a Concentrate Fire (adding a blue dice), you've got a 58% chance of an Accuracy on a Raider-I's front arc. With any kind of reroll ability in there, your odds get even better (Concentrate Fire token, Vader). Even if you're a bit light on the total damage after that (which shouldn't be a big problem), a ram can finish off the flotilla.

If you really want to go flotilla hunting, Raider-IIs are better due to the higher odds of rolling an Accuracy result (68.5% chance of getting 1+ Accuracy results on 4 blue dice). They may struggle a bit to get as much damage, but again, ramming can help.

​At the moment, the Empire doesn't really have better solutions for the cost. A Rhymer Ball can overheat the Scatter/Evade, but it's a lot of fire for a single flotilla and Bright Hope will mostly just laugh it off.

So quick recap:

Raider 2's are good Flotilla killers, but only 58% of a front arc shot. Sending a 60 point ship after a 30 point ship is silly. Raiders suck, and are a waste of points. OE is the ****, but Sensor Teams is just bad. Fighters have an easy time with flotillas except Bright Hope. Needs TIEs to lock down fighter swarms, or else it pops.

I feel people are trying to be too specific. Perhaps something like... Raiders are a hard to use ship that can contribute in a wider variety of ways than expected.

With the new choice in Wave 5 it will be interesting to see if the Raider fades further (even though the Arquetens isn't a direct replacement) or finds that niche that has so far eluded it.

@PT106: I roll 5 dice, I get one crit, one hit, one accuracy, and two blanks. VG forces me to re-roll all of it. Not efficient. Screed lets me get another crit (possibly a hit/crit) out of the deal. Vader lets me trade a token to get just the two blanks re-rolled. So not sure VG is the end all be all.

You can spend the acc before rerolling the rest

Modify dice comes before spend accuracy, so I don't think you get to spend the acc before you re-roll it.....

No.

There is no separate "modify" step followed by a "spend accuracy step".

It's all part of the same modify step, and you decide the order.

Roll.

Spend Acc.

Reroll w/ Vet Gunners

Acc doesn't get rerolled - it's been spent, so is no longer in the pool.

Where does it say spending accuracy removes them from the pool?

In the rules :-D

On a more serious note, a dice is gone after it's been spent. Not just accs. Any kind of spend.

Can you specify the page? It says you spend the icon, but as we know with cards like Screed and Warlord, icons are not dice.

Page 2, Resolve Attack Effects

Page 5, Dice Icons

Page 6, Modifying Dice

That last one says if you spend an icon you spend the die. Which is a good thing, as otherwise we'd have to cut up our dice much too often to spend just an icon

After Reading this gunnery teams have become so much better in my opinion. I was playing as if you lose the accuracy and chose to spend the reroll

A naked Raider-I should do the trick.

@PT106: I roll 5 dice, I get one crit, one hit, one accuracy, and two blanks. VG forces me to re-roll all of it. Not efficient. Screed lets me get another crit (possibly a hit/crit) out of the deal. Vader lets me trade a token to get just the two blanks re-rolled. So not sure VG is the end all be all.

You can spend the acc before rerolling the rest

Modify dice comes before spend accuracy, so I don't think you get to spend the acc before you re-roll it.....

No.

There is no separate "modify" step followed by a "spend accuracy step".

It's all part of the same modify step, and you decide the order.

Roll.

Spend Acc.

Reroll w/ Vet Gunners

Acc doesn't get rerolled - it's been spent, so is no longer in the pool.

Where does it say spending accuracy removes them from the pool?

In the rules :-D

On a more serious note, a dice is gone after it's been spent. Not just accs. Any kind of spend.

Can you specify the page? It says you spend the icon, but as we know with cards like Screed and Warlord, icons are not dice.

Page 2, Resolve Attack Effects

Page 5, Dice Icons

Page 6, Modifying Dice

That last one says if you spend an icon you spend the die. Which is a good thing, as otherwise we'd have to cut up our dice much too often to spend just an icon

After Reading this gunnery teams have become so much better in my opinion. I was playing as if you lose the accuracy and chose to spend the reroll

learn something everyday!

my approach has been to include insurances that ships i already take can deal with flotillas, ie adding intel officer to demo, h9 to isd, etc. etc. specializing too much in this game can really hurt ya. and remember, that raider really wants 1st player, ISD2 doesn't care either way really, neither does GSD2 demo for that matter... i think there are better ways to deal with flotillas, up to and including just ignoring them

I like the idea, but by sacrificing OE for sensor teams you risk not doing enough damage to kill the flotilla with the shot you have lined up

what do you mean "shot" ? what are you people talking about shooting?

*crashes into flotilla*

i guess I understand how people want sensor team to get rid of scatter.

Ive tried this a lot and always seem to miss the accuracy at the crucial moment.... seen it happen to may others.

Its a good option but sensor teams or maybe intel officer if you think you will get a second shot.

I'll repeat:

Raider-I, CF, Vader, APT

You're not guaranteed to kill a flotilla, but the Force is strong with Vader, so your changes are very good

Yeah Vader makes Raiders substantially more reliable at killing flotillas. Vader+Raiders has always been a swell combination, the problem is populating your fleet with other ships that want Vader's ability and making it cost-effective.

Yeah Vader makes Raiders substantially more reliable at killing flotillas. Vader+Raiders has always been a swell combination, the problem is populating your fleet with other ships that want Vader's ability and making it cost-effective.

Kinda wanna try this out. No squads, but four sources of double black AA should be able to handle most squads

Kinda wanna try this out. No squads, but four sources of double black AA should be able to handle most squads

Fleet Summary Page (396 of 400 pts)

Faction: The Empire

Commander: Darth Vader (36 pts)

Flagship: (82 pts)

Victory I-class Star Destroyer (73 pts)

Spinal Armament (9 pts)

Fleet Ship 1: (82 pts)

Victory I-class Star Destroyer (73 pts)

Spinal Armament (9 pts)

Fleet Ship 2: (49 pts)

Raider I-class Corvette (44 pts)

Assault Proton Torpedoes (5 pts)

Fleet Ship 3: (49 pts)

Raider I-class Corvette (44 pts)

Assault Proton Torpedoes (5 pts)

Fleet Ship 4: (49 pts)

Raider I-class Corvette (44 pts)

Assault Proton Torpedoes (5 pts)

Fleet Ship 5: (49 pts)

Raider I-class Corvette (44 pts)

Assault Proton Torpedoes (5 pts)

Squadrons (0 of 134 pts):

Objectives: Most Wanted , Fire Lanes , Intel Sweep

I would drop 1 Raider to Assault Gozanti with Comms Net and use the points to add Gunnery Teams and Defence Liasons on both Victories.

Kinda wanna try this out. No squads, but four sources of double black AA should be able to handle most squads

Fleet Summary Page (396 of 400 pts)

Faction: The Empire

Commander: Darth Vader (36 pts)

Flagship: (82 pts)

Victory I-class Star Destroyer (73 pts)

Spinal Armament (9 pts)

Fleet Ship 1: (82 pts)

Victory I-class Star Destroyer (73 pts)

Spinal Armament (9 pts)

Fleet Ship 2: (49 pts)

Raider I-class Corvette (44 pts)

Assault Proton Torpedoes (5 pts)

Fleet Ship 3: (49 pts)

Raider I-class Corvette (44 pts)

Assault Proton Torpedoes (5 pts)

Fleet Ship 4: (49 pts)

Raider I-class Corvette (44 pts)

Assault Proton Torpedoes (5 pts)

Fleet Ship 5: (49 pts)

Raider I-class Corvette (44 pts)

Assault Proton Torpedoes (5 pts)

Squadrons (0 of 134 pts):

Objectives: Most Wanted , Fire Lanes , Intel Sweep

I would drop 1 Raider to Assault Gozanti with Comms Net and use the points to add Gunnery Teams and Defence Liasons on both Victories.

Good call, thank you. I'm usually pretty solid with my dials though so I think I'll throw chart officer on both of them to avoid the obstacle crit that is bound to happen to a Vic without MJ

I learned from the last Vassal tourney that a Raider-I with Sensor teams+APT with Screed as your commander can take down a flotilla in one shot:

CF shot on a flotilla: 2 blues, 2 blacks (I was told to add a black die for CF, but it works with blue as well, if not better.)

Doesn't matter if you roll an acc or not with the 3 blue dice, use sensor teams to get one if you didn't. You will end up with at worst an acc+1 damage.

Doesn't matter what your black dice roll. Use Screed to turn one into a hit/crit if they both come up blank or both have single hits on them.

APT triggers for one face up damage card.

You now have at minimum 3 damage for the flotilla to deal with and this is the worst roll you can get. If you are shooting at Bright Hope or a Motti flotilla, then you just ram the flotilla.

Flotilla dead from one shot....

I learned from the last Vassal tourney that a Raider-I with Sensor teams+APT with Screed as your commander can take down a flotilla in one shot:

CF shot on a flotilla: 2 blues, 2 blacks (I was told to add a black die for CF, but it works with blue as well, if not better.)

Doesn't matter if you roll an acc or not with the 3 blue dice, use sensor teams to get one if you didn't. You will end up with at worst an acc+1 damage.

Doesn't matter what your black dice roll. Use Screed to turn one into a hit/crit if they both come up blank or both have single hits on them.

APT triggers for one face up damage card.

You now have at minimum 3 damage for the flotilla to deal with and this is the worst roll you can get. If you are shooting at Bright Hope or a Motti flotilla, then you just ram the flotilla.

Flotilla dead from one shot....

While I'm definitely impressed with such a reliable outcome vs. flotillas, I find it's a really hard sell giving up the Ordnance Experts on Raider-Is (it makes the flak absolutely nuts). With Raider-IIs I feel like this is a pretty legit use if you want them to be specialized flotilla hunters, though.

I learned from the last Vassal tourney that a Raider-I with Sensor teams+APT with Screed as your commander can take down a flotilla in one shot:

CF shot on a flotilla: 2 blues, 2 blacks (I was told to add a black die for CF, but it works with blue as well, if not better.)

Doesn't matter if you roll an acc or not with the 3 blue dice, use sensor teams to get one if you didn't. You will end up with at worst an acc+1 damage.

Doesn't matter what your black dice roll. Use Screed to turn one into a hit/crit if they both come up blank or both have single hits on them.

APT triggers for one face up damage card.

You now have at minimum 3 damage for the flotilla to deal with and this is the worst roll you can get. If you are shooting at Bright Hope or a Motti flotilla, then you just ram the flotilla.

Flotilla dead from one shot....

While I'm definitely impressed with such a reliable outcome vs. flotillas, I find it's a really hard sell giving up the Ordnance Experts on Raider-Is (it makes the flak absolutely nuts). With Raider-IIs I feel like this is a pretty legit use if you want them to be specialized flotilla hunters, though.

But then you don't get the APT...

I learned from the last Vassal tourney that a Raider-I with Sensor teams+APT with Screed as your commander can take down a flotilla in one shot:

CF shot on a flotilla: 2 blues, 2 blacks (I was told to add a black die for CF, but it works with blue as well, if not better.)

Doesn't matter if you roll an acc or not with the 3 blue dice, use sensor teams to get one if you didn't. You will end up with at worst an acc+1 damage.

Doesn't matter what your black dice roll. Use Screed to turn one into a hit/crit if they both come up blank or both have single hits on them.

APT triggers for one face up damage card.

You now have at minimum 3 damage for the flotilla to deal with and this is the worst roll you can get. If you are shooting at Bright Hope or a Motti flotilla, then you just ram the flotilla.

Flotilla dead from one shot....

While I'm definitely impressed with such a reliable outcome vs. flotillas, I find it's a really hard sell giving up the Ordnance Experts on Raider-Is (it makes the flak absolutely nuts). With Raider-IIs I feel like this is a pretty legit use if you want them to be specialized flotilla hunters, though.

But then you don't get the APT...

That is true, and sad. You can, however, get Ion Cannon Batteries, which do basically the same thing provided you're shooting at a shielded hull zone (which is common with flotillas, they tend to go from "feelin' just fine" to "OMIGOD EVERYTHING IS ON FIRE" in one attack).