it's not always THAT simple to close the gap on 4xTLT lists, and well flown ones make it so you'll never be in range 1 of all 4 ships in a given turn.

That's because charging the donut is exactly what a 4xTLT player wants you to do. The way to beat 4xTLT is to "slice the pie" not eat it "whole." You want to be at Range 4 of at least (1) of the TLTs, maybe (2). You may want to disengage entirely on first pass, using misdirection and cunning dials to get them bumping each other. The key is taking his TLT(s) out of the conversation and you do this consistently at Range 4, not Range 1 (where you'll end up blocked or worse).

Hasn't Spanish nationals been won by quad TLT this year?

Considering it's representation, that it has won so few events of any size is exactly my point. It is a middle of the road list in terms of capability, no more. I was aware of the Spanish Nationals win when I made my comments, I stand by them. Triple defenders was more successful as an archetype than TLT spam, with a good deal less hand-wringing.

Hasn't Spanish nationals been won by quad TLT this year?

Considering it's representation, that it has won so few events of any size is exactly my point. It is a middle of the road list in terms of capability, no more. I was aware of the Spanish Nationals win when I made my comments, I stand by them. Triple defenders was more successful as an archetype than TLT spam, with a good deal less hand-wringing.

It's really not about event representation, though. It's about their inclusion knocking certain other list types out of the game before they hit the mat. Trip Jumps had the same issue, just with wider ripples.

Also, TLTs are generally NOT fun matches, as there is relatively little variance in one round from the next. ... Another issue they share with Trip Jumps, sort of.

I don't mind 'em, personally, but that's what the real issue is.

-- Rebel stress & regen are obviously coming back with a vengeance after operation nerfmaster

Not sold on that btw, LRS bombers are now unshackled from their problem of torp scouts killing them. And Rebel Regen has no Biggs to protect itself from those.

They don't have the maneuverability, the shields, or the PWT to close things out after they've spent their ordnance. Sure, they'll wipe the floor with some lists but they'll completely punt against others. Therefore they won't be heavily represented at tournaments and so while they'll cause problems in individual matches for rebel regen they won't tend to drive it completely out of the meta.

U-Boats had the advantage of being basically auto win in some matches just like the bombers but always had at least a decent chance against almost everything else.

I'm no expert (at anything really), and I even posted an inquiry about these very things on Y-Wings and K-Wings a few weeks ago because friends were bringing them and I was getting stressed out (literally) when I know I was going to face them. With most things, I do my homework and try to mitigate stress (on myself) so I can relax, set up a squad, have a pint in hand, and give 'em hell.

What I -the former ignorant one- has learned from the brilliance on this forum and a wee bit of experience is: First, TLT's really, really hate Sensor Jammer. Secondly, they don't particularly like trying to hit that nutty cannon Luke Skywalker, if they can help it. Thirdly, they're not big fans of Scum running Glitterstim. Fourth, if I were a TLT honk, I'd think Lone Wolf is a pain in the butt. Fifth, they obviously would rather not have to deal with Autothrusters and the ships that run them typically due to the fact they're either using it, or boosting into range one where, at least the close ship(s) can't TLT. But mostly, they hate alpha-strikes; and the TIE Bomber, I believe, is more than up to the challenge.

I never was too intimidated by TLT's. I like them in my squads, but no more than two Thugs

I never was too intimidated by TLT's. I like them in my squads, but no more than two Thugs

Hasn't Spanish nationals been won by quad TLT this year?

Yes, I think so; but the timing of the final game was during their usual siesta...so...

People don't hate OP. That's a myth. Everyone likes winning!

What people hate is stuff that newbies can beat them with. That's why people hate TLTs and U-Boats - they have a much gentler learning curve. And I think FFG nerfing the U-Boat is just proof that FFG has the same anti-newbie mentality. Not out of hostility, just because nobody will pay thousands of bucks to play a game if they can't get so good at it through insane amounts of practice that they easily squash all opposition!

I'm not saying this as a new player, because I've played since wave 1, and I probably wouldn't play either if there was no skill involved in gameplay... I just think people could be a little less flagrant in their arrogance and disrespect for newbies.

You know what's better than TLT spam? 2 TLTS and 2 warthogs.

TLTs are at least more fun to play against than PWT ships. Generally the ships they're on have low PS, low agility, and the thing at least has an obvious weakness in that it can't be used at range one. Certainly no more frustrating or boring than flying against palp aces or u boats.

If we go back in our X-Wing history books, Palp Aces have had a leg-up on TLT since Autothrusters and even 10 months ago, when Scum TLTs got hot, Acewing still had a grasp on the meta, right?

Now, a year later, we have not seen many buffs to the Y-WIng (save R4 and OC), only a few new vehicles for the TLT - but overall nothing that really jumps (RIP) out at me. What am I missing?

I need walked through how Defenders, Rebel regen monsters like Norra or PS 9 Poe, or any number of new hotness are going to be afraid of TLTs.

The current anti-TLT aces are Soontir, Carnor, Inquisitor, Fenn Rau, and Old Teroch. I think they will have a poor showing at worlds.

-- Defenders can win the damage race against them

-- Rebel stress & regen are obviously coming back with a vengeance after operation nerfmaster

-- The tools against low health aces are so numerous now: bombs & BMST for instance

With less auto-thruster aces to keep TLT's in check, they will flourish. I remember when the forums were happy because U-boats came in to counter 4x TLT. Quad TLT does take skill to extract peak performance, but U-boats take more skill and are generally a more interesting ship.

Going forward, I would presume the strongest TLT lists will only include 1 or 2. Just like Paul H's list last year. TLT on K-wing is strong. I'm still finding TLT with Vectored Thrusters to have great potential.

U-boats actually took less skill than the TLT Y's. Fly into range 3, take focus, spend focus, deal all the damage, clean up whatever's left. Now with deadeye gone, they'll take more skill to set up, but still be a strong list to contend with. They just don't get the free exchange of focus for target lock now.

I'm not even too sure what the original fuss was about. I faced quad TLT in 1 tournament and beat it with Miranda, 2 blues and a bandit. Yet the internet claims TLT spam killed b-wings then scouts buried the coffin.

TLT didn't kill B-wings per say, It just killed BBBBZ, which had no upgrades in it what so ever. BBBB (with 4 fcs) or something else of that nature would probably fare okay against TLT, because the re-rolls would most likely pay off. If you flew the B's right, It would come out to a really close game.

What really killed B-wings is the Plasma Torpedoes. A perfect roll, 1 plasma torp can take down all of your B-wings shields. If the torps hit, the minimum damage you will take is two anyway. Combined with the Fact B-wings only have one agility, most of the time your going to take 2-4 damage. There also one of the few rebel ships that can't take a regen option, and do not have the benefit of autothrusters. Notice how every tanky ship since wave 7 has more hull than shields, which mitigates them being critically affected by plasma torpedoes. But a range one TIE fighter can get a lucky roll in and kill a shieldless b-wing.

Collision detector may yet breath some life into them though. Being able to barrel roll through obstacles without Dash is a pretty neat trick.

Rebels are going to have a ship that can leisurely fly into point blank range of the formation, bomb them, block them, ionize them, and slice them with zero chance of being shot at until it is the last ship on the board.

Tractor beams allow you to push members of the TLT squad into asteroids to not only negate their attack, but possibly cause damage and break the formation. Stack that with TIE/D and Ruthlessness for unbridled Trolls and LOLs as you also deal at least 2 damage with your ship every turn without even rolling dice.

Rebels are going to have a ship that can leisurely fly into point blank range of the formation, bomb them, block them, ionize them, and slice them with zero chance of being shot at until it is the last ship on the board.

It's not quite as extreme as that. The Captured Tie cannot be targetted by enemies with a lower PS which means it cannot block them. If you go higher PS to provide more protection from shooting then you erode your blocking ability.

The EMP is one-use only and also ionizes the ship using it. Nasty but not entirely overpowering. If you are taking BMST then you need something in your list to stress targets or you rely on the enemy stressing themselves (something they can simply chose not to do while the BMST is around). If you want a bomb then you need Sabine which means you are not using her a pilot for the Tie or Attack Shuttle and she can only drop one bomb (no EMs).

The Captured Tie is a neat support unit that has a few tricks up its sleeve. But ultimately it is still just a bog-standard Tie fighter and sinking a quarter of your points into a ship that is not rolling any red dice is always going to be a risky tactic.

Don't know if a TLT can shot down this:

JumpMaster 5000: Contracted Scout (25)

Adaptability (Increase) (0)

Extra Munitions (2)

Plasma Torpedoes (3)

Guidance Chips (0)

K4 Security Droid (3)

JumpMaster 5000: Contracted Scout (25)

Adaptability (Increase) (0)

Extra Munitions (2)

Plasma Torpedoes (3)

Guidance Chips (0)

K4 Security Droid (3)

JumpMaster 5000: Contracted Scout (25)

Adaptability (Increase) (0)

Extra Munitions (2)

Proton Torpedoes (4)

Guidance Chips (0)

K4 Security Droid (3)

100/100

Contracted Scout X3

Trickshot

APL or Ion Projector

Feedback Array

K4 Droid

Unhinged Astromech

Little bit more skill involved than the usual triple scouts. One or two of these guys in a list as some filler could be cool.

Hasn't Spanish nationals been won by quad TLT this year?

Considering it's representation, that it has won so few events of any size is exactly my point. It is a middle of the road list in terms of capability, no more. I was aware of the Spanish Nationals win when I made my comments, I stand by them. Triple defenders was more successful as an archetype than TLT spam, with a good deal less hand-wringing.

4 tlt Ys never reached the numbers of Jumpmasters, yet they won Polish and Spanish Nationals last year while being runner up of the Italian one.

Jumpmasters rapresentation in tournaments since wave 8 was out was way more bigger than 4 tlts were during wave 7. I agree with you that they aren't an op boogeyman (like triple jumps weren't either), but saying that 4 tlts were over rapresenteted and won nothing is a lie or huge misinterpretation.

Triple defenders have also been way more represented in tournament than how 4 Ys were when they were being played.

4 tlt ys were way less played than think they were. Few players were intrigued enough by that list to commit so much money to fly it especially since the Heaver worlds's archetype was more effective than them and with Miranda instead of Poe, almost a direct counter of 4 ys

If you are taking BMST then you need something in your list to stress targets or you rely on the enemy stressing themselves (something they can simply chose not to do while the BMST is around).

Return of the Sresshog!!!!!

Rebels are going to have a ship that can leisurely fly into point blank range of the formation, bomb them, block them, ionize them, and slice them with zero chance of being shot at until it is the last ship on the board.

It's not quite as extreme as that. The Captured Tie cannot be targetted by enemies with a lower PS which means it cannot block them. If you go higher PS to provide more protection from shooting then you erode your blocking ability.

The EMP is one-use only and also ionizes the ship using it. Nasty but not entirely overpowering. If you are taking BMST then you need something in your list to stress targets or you rely on the enemy stressing themselves (something they can simply chose not to do while the BMST is around). If you want a bomb then you need Sabine which means you are not using her a pilot for the Tie or Attack Shuttle and she can only drop one bomb (no EMs).

The Captured Tie is a neat support unit that has a few tricks up its sleeve. But ultimately it is still just a bog-standard Tie fighter and sinking a quarter of your points into a ship that is not rolling any red dice is always going to be a risky tactic.

Again Karhedron, excellent analysis and understanding, thanks from all of us (especially amatures like me). FFG should hire you to do write ups to explain these new ships and functions.

I was thinking while digesting the threads on TLT's, would a ship like, let's say a Defender D with an Ion cannon, make a better opposing ship that simply damage/evade X7s? Or maybe something weird that has a tractor beam ability? If so, what could you fly with it to dovetail the actions. I read a similar though from flyboymb above....maybe this is a fun and useful option.

Return of the Sresshog!!!!!

32 Braylen (25), R3-A2 (2), Gunner (5), Alliance Overhaul (0)

Costs a bit more than a Stresshog but I would say he is definitely worth it. Much better dial, Auxiliary arc meaning you are much more likely to shoot him and a native ability to help clear the stress from the Stressbot. The interaction between the upgrades is useful as it means you the worst result you can get is either 2 stress or 1 stress and 1 damage (even against Soontir).

I tend to think that as long as you have a list that can smoke one of those y-wing kippers before breakfast, then you're off to a good start. After that they are no so scary.

My question is where does the crack swarm fit into all of this? (Besides being the most expensive (money wise) List for the Rebels. Empires version ain't cheap either.)

Return of the Sresshog!!!!!

Nah, Stresshog is dead. Long live Braylen, the Stressmule!

32 Braylen (25), R3-A2 (2), Gunner (5), Alliance Overhaul (0)

Costs a bit more than a Stresshog but I would say he is definitely worth it. Much better dial, Auxiliary arc meaning you are much more likely to shoot him and a native ability to help clear the stress from the Stressbot. The interaction between the upgrades is useful as it means you the worst result you can get is either 2 stress or 1 stress and 1 damage (even against Soontir).

tried it out and is great, but gunner I don't know is necessary. Double stress is awesome as its guaranteed no actions, but I am not sure its worth those points. So many amazing crew options you can get in there instead of it to buff your squad.

The mule having two Arcs to push stress out of is what tipped it for me. I will be able to keep stressing pretty much every turn, as I will be able to keep pretty much anything in arc with that dial. But I can't if am super stressed myself.

try Tail Gunner, Kanan, or even tactician and throw those extra points around in your squad.

My question is where does the crack swarm fit into all of this? (Besides being the most expensive (money wise) List for the Rebels. Empires version ain't cheap either.)

The rebel version (Chihuahuas) just got a lot cheaper as the five copies of Adaptability are no longer essential!

"Or is the concern that 4 TLT Y-Wings is going to return?"

I never left

Return of the Sresshog!!!!!

Nah, Stresshog is dead. Long live Braylen, the Stressmule!

32 Braylen (25), R3-A2 (2), Gunner (5), Alliance Overhaul (0)

Costs a bit more than a Stresshog but I would say he is definitely worth it. Much better dial, Auxiliary arc meaning you are much more likely to shoot him and a native ability to help clear the stress from the Stressbot. The interaction between the upgrades is useful as it means you the worst result you can get is either 2 stress or 1 stress and 1 damage (even against Soontir).

tried it out and is great, but gunner I don't know is necessary. Double stress is awesome as its guaranteed no actions, but I am not sure its worth those points. So many amazing crew options you can get in there instead of it to buff your squad.

The mule having two Arcs to push stress out of is what tipped it for me. I will be able to keep stressing pretty much every turn, as I will be able to keep pretty much anything in arc with that dial. But I can't if am super stressed myself.

try Tail Gunner, Kanan, or even tactician and throw those extra points around in your squad.

nah gunner is worth every point

as it actually allows you to hit things on occasion, even with the rear arc (after stressing the enemy of course), and gives you the ability to double stress at any range

besides when flying Biggs, Braylen and norra there's no need for additional points elsewhere in the squad. Hell, there's room for VTs on Braylen