I keep hearing everyone whining about the game going back to TLT spam now that the Jumpmaster can no longer take Deadeye.

Remind me again why we're worried about TLT? Is it because the **** thing can be used 4x/turn on the Ghost'd VCX? Or is the concern that 4 TLT Y-Wings is going to return?

If we go back in our X-Wing history books, Palp Aces have had a leg-up on TLT since Autothrusters and even 10 months ago, when Scum TLTs got hot, Acewing still had a grasp on the meta, right?

Now, a year later, we have not seen many buffs to the Y-WIng (save R4 and OC), only a few new vehicles for the TLT - but overall nothing that really jumps (RIP) out at me. What am I missing?

I need walked through how Defenders, Rebel regen monsters like Norra or PS 9 Poe, or any number of new hotness are going to be afraid of TLTs.

The day that people stop complaining about "something" on the forum... will be the day that the forum is down for maintenance

I mostly meant it as a Joke.. I expect to see TLT y-wing return but I think that the Thug Life list was proven not to be over powered last year.

-M

TLT Y-wings were enough shots to burn through a tokened up Soontir Fel. So, 4 x TLT's could defeat Imperial Aces. Oh...not every game and not with good players vs bad ones, but you know.

Also, TLT's killed the Fat Turrets that ruled the land since the time of the Dinosaurs.

Then there was the whole "It takes no skill to fly TLT's! You just fly around and roll dice at people all day long. It doesn't matter where you fly, as long as it's not off the board."

I need walked through how Defenders, Rebel regen monsters like Norra or PS 9 Poe, or any number of new hotness are going to be afraid of TLTs.

Defenders and Poe don't really care. Defenders can usually kill TLTs faster than they can be killed, and Poe has Autothrusters and his near infinite Focus ability. Corran is a little nervous, because he has no autothrusters and he's not actually that maneuverable in regen mode, so TLTs can avoid him being at Range 1 and grind him down. Norra cares because AGI 1 is basically food for TLTs. She can't avoid enough damage for her regen to stick. Obviously everybody in this list has friends, though, so if you have friends good against TLTs, you're probably okay, even with a poorer matchup like Norra.

norra does indeed have friends, including ps 5 biggs

the trick with her is to punch TLTs harder and before they shoot, using her ability offensively along with the time Biggs can buy you

http://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Rebel%20Alliance&d=v4!s!204:18,-1,184,3:41:26:;4:-1,77:-1:20:;206:1,61,69:41:25:&sn=in%20case%20of%20TLTs%20break%20glass

I keep making the "TLT's will ruin the game" comment facetiously against all the whiners. I personally don't like flying again them but don't believe they will see a resurgence in popularity.

Even x7 Defenders don't like being shot at 8 times, Palp or no Palp. Despite what some folks may think, it's not always THAT simple to close the gap on 4xTLT lists, and well flown ones make it so you'll never be in range 1 of all 4 ships in a given turn.

Autothusters are a decent counter, but Defenders are relying on 3 dice, maybe two tokens (assuming they don't use focus offensively), and maybe one Palp. It's certainly not an auto-win situation, but it is an extremely hairy situation, until the Defenders start chewing through the Ys. Initial engagements become clutch.

They might even be popular due to their ability to do 50% damage to Ghosts, almost without fail, in a single round of shooting.

... But, even when they were the boogeyman, they weren't THAT popular. It's just no something that folks have to be cognizant of again when list building. And even bad matchups can win against TLTs... more regularly than they could Triple Scouts, anyway.

Don't know if a TLT can shot down this:

JumpMaster 5000: Contracted Scout (25)

Adaptability (Increase) (0)

Extra Munitions (2)

Plasma Torpedoes (3)

Guidance Chips (0)

K4 Security Droid (3)

JumpMaster 5000: Contracted Scout (25)

Adaptability (Increase) (0)

Extra Munitions (2)

Plasma Torpedoes (3)

Guidance Chips (0)

K4 Security Droid (3)

JumpMaster 5000: Contracted Scout (25)

Adaptability (Increase) (0)

Extra Munitions (2)

Proton Torpedoes (4)

Guidance Chips (0)

K4 Security Droid (3)

100/100

I have played Defenders vs TLTs and they can wear down the Ties over time. /x7s are a lot more durable for sure but then you only have 3 x 3 red dice (typically) to burn through 32 health.

/D Defenders kill the Y-wings faster but also suffer attrition to the TLTs faster too. Anything without Autothrusters is potentially vulnerable to being nibbled to death in this way. However it is slow and Y-wings themselves are prone to being burned down by concentrated fire.

Don't know if a TLT can shot down this:

JumpMaster 5000: Contracted Scout (25)

Adaptability (Increase) (0)

Extra Munitions (2)

Plasma Torpedoes (3)

Guidance Chips (0)

K4 Security Droid (3)

JumpMaster 5000: Contracted Scout (25)

Adaptability (Increase) (0)

Extra Munitions (2)

Plasma Torpedoes (3)

Guidance Chips (0)

K4 Security Droid (3)

JumpMaster 5000: Contracted Scout (25)

Adaptability (Increase) (0)

Extra Munitions (2)

Proton Torpedoes (4)

Guidance Chips (0)

K4 Security Droid (3)

100/100

Probably not, but it dies to every other popular list on the mat...

I keep hearing everyone whining about the game going back to TLT spam now that the Jumpmaster can no longer take Deadeye.

Remind me again why we're worried about TLT? Is it because the **** thing can be used 4x/turn on the Ghost'd VCX? Or is the concern that 4 TLT Y-Wings is going to return?

If we go back in our X-Wing history books, Palp Aces have had a leg-up on TLT since Autothrusters and even 10 months ago, when Scum TLTs got hot, Acewing still had a grasp on the meta, right?

Now, a year later, we have not seen many buffs to the Y-WIng (save R4 and OC), only a few new vehicles for the TLT - but overall nothing that really jumps (RIP) out at me. What am I missing?

I need walked through how Defenders, Rebel regen monsters like Norra or PS 9 Poe, or any number of new hotness are going to be afraid of TLTs.

Watch out, HWKs! They get to have BMSTs which are effective versus most Autothruster users. And Zuckuss, who works pretty well on TLTs.

Spice Runner (16)

Twin Laser Turret (6)

Black Market Slicer Tools (1)

Spice Runner (16)

Twin Laser Turret (6)

Dengar (3)

Black Market Slicer Tools (1)

Torkil Mux (19)

Twin Laser Turret (6)

Zuckuss (1)

Syndicate Thug (18)

Twin Laser Turret (6)

Unhinged Astromech (1)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

It remains to be seen if the bs can outweigh the loss of durability and PS.

Also, TLT's killed the Fat Turrets that ruled the land since the time of the Dinosaurs.

This is kind of a myth that was true because people either bought into it or nobody knew how to fly fat turrets. I always flew a super fat Decimator and Vader Pilot (you know, that Imperial Ace without autothrusters?) and I was told many times that Quad TLT was an unwinnable match for me, but I always found that it was like a 60/40 match in my favor.

It was tricky, but I could usually win, and that was on my ship with 0 agility. Kill some before they shoot, bump others, learn to land in dead spots. Range 1 is your friend. It's really not as bad as people always pretended.

Norra (and other Arcs) definitely care about TLTs. Your only option is to really burn them down as quickly as possible, as they will steadily chew through your defenses otherwise. Especially if there are more than two of them.

Despite what i said earlier about not enjoying flying against them, I think I actually DO enjoy flying against them because they are always a challenge (if flown right) and I guess that's what i'm looking for in a game. Either of the lists in my signature have worked beautifully against TLT's but they have also crumpled like a flan in a closet when I fly badly (or my opponent flies really well).

I'm probably lucky in that it never dominated my local meta any more than triple scouts did so when I see those lists I have a certain moment of "Hello darkness, my old friend - I've come to talk to you again" rather than wanting to flip a table and rage quit.

Don't know if a TLT can shot down this:

JumpMaster 5000: Contracted Scout (25)

Adaptability (Increase) (0)

Extra Munitions (2)

Plasma Torpedoes (3)

Guidance Chips (0)

K4 Security Droid (3)

JumpMaster 5000: Contracted Scout (25)

Adaptability (Increase) (0)

Extra Munitions (2)

Plasma Torpedoes (3)

Guidance Chips (0)

K4 Security Droid (3)

JumpMaster 5000: Contracted Scout (25)

Adaptability (Increase) (0)

Extra Munitions (2)

Proton Torpedoes (4)

Guidance Chips (0)

K4 Security Droid (3)

100/100

Yeah, 3x jumps are not disappearing, that's what I was thinking this morning. The difference is they will not be insanity, just strong.

Last time I flew Defenders against TLT Y-wings was before the fix, but I found the key to winning was having a higher PS. Killing one tlt off before it could attack in that turn made the difference. When I used Deltas the tlt won.

Though now with the title they are either gonna tank more shots from the tlt, or deal more damage and potentially ion them and get in range 1 next turn. It will be interesting to see how the meta shapes going forward.

It's not that they are overpowered per se, it that 4x TLT lists are just insufferably boring exercises in dice rolling. There are specific builds that are either auto-win or auto-lose, which restricts the meta and creates a stale environment. That is bad for the game.

If we go back in our X-Wing history books, Palp Aces have had a leg-up on TLT since Autothrusters and even 10 months ago, when Scum TLTs got hot, Acewing still had a grasp on the meta, right?

Now, a year later, we have not seen many buffs to the Y-WIng (save R4 and OC), only a few new vehicles for the TLT - but overall nothing that really jumps (RIP) out at me. What am I missing?

I need walked through how Defenders, Rebel regen monsters like Norra or PS 9 Poe, or any number of new hotness are going to be afraid of TLTs.

The current anti-TLT aces are Soontir, Carnor, Inquisitor, Fenn Rau, and Old Teroch. I think they will have a poor showing at worlds.

-- Defenders can win the damage race against them

-- Rebel stress & regen are obviously coming back with a vengeance after operation nerfmaster

-- The tools against low health aces are so numerous now: bombs & BMST for instance

With less auto-thruster aces to keep TLT's in check, they will flourish. I remember when the forums were happy because U-boats came in to counter 4x TLT. Quad TLT does take skill to extract peak performance, but U-boats take more skill and are generally a more interesting ship.

Going forward, I would presume the strongest TLT lists will only include 1 or 2. Just like Paul H's list last year. TLT on K-wing is strong. I'm still finding TLT with Vectored Thrusters to have great potential.

I'm not even too sure what the original fuss was about. I faced quad TLT in 1 tournament and beat it with Miranda, 2 blues and a bandit. Yet the internet claims TLT spam killed b-wings then scouts buried the coffin.

I don't think ordnance builds are gone though. That Pandora's box is open now. We have guidance chips, LRS, vet. Gamma bombers (which can take deadeye) and other platforms now. There are a lot more ways to alpha a TLT build now. I think low agility ships are still gonna suffer under whatever new meta develops.

-- Rebel stress & regen are obviously coming back with a vengeance after operation nerfmaster

Not sold on that btw, LRS bombers are now unshackled from their problem of torp scouts killing them. And Rebel Regen has no Biggs to protect itself from those.

There really isn't a fuss. Quad TLT was a non-starter from the beginning.

Q: How did the playtesters miss it?

A: They didn't. It wasn't very good.

There are always lists that people enjoy or don't enjoy playing against, but if the great boogeyman list you are worked up about wins approximately zero tournaments despite good representation then it doesn't need a nerf. If you insist on building lists that don't account for a popular list and get beat by it, then that is on you.

In the beginning there was TIE Swarm, and any list that did not account for facing one could comfortably expect to be eliminated. Swarm was far more effective, winning consistently and accounting for a very large percentage of lists played. Then Fat turrets became a thing, and the same was true. Aces, rebel regen, triple scouts, dengaroo, all of these have some measure of that effectiveness and popularity. Quad TLT may have been fairly common, but it never at any point managed even a fraction of the success of these other lists.

In short the fuss about TLT spam was just that, fuss, and no substance.

Hasn't Spanish nationals been won by quad TLT this year?

i doubt we'll see the 4y return. Theres a plethora of new ways to shank them good, including a lot of ways to just explode them outside torpscouts.

But

We will probably see the random 1-2 gold ywings with tlts and perhaps VTs appear as a backliner support for some tanky front ship (poe? ghost?). 2 TLTs wont murder a fat ship very quickly but they rarely miss even against soontir when theres 4 attempts on the same **** ship, eventually one gets through and thats all you need.

Plus, its a really....really boring list to both face and play. Same reason i hated torpscouts, it wasnt their sheer power it was the insanely stale gameplay they caused.