This thread is hilarious. CS is still only 25 points. Still has an EPT. Still has S-Loops. Still has hard 1 turns.

The only real point is the timing of the update relating to tournaments. Other than that, boo-hoo.

And still has a 2 dice primary. WoW a 25 points ueber-tie ^_°

Scout is only useful as a bumpmaster now, I'd actually use Kavil for the torpedo boat due to bringing ABT to counter aces.

And still has a 2 dice primary. WoW a 25 points ueber-tie ^_°

2 points cheaper than an ORS, 5 points cheaper than a WSF. Same primary attacks. Better upgrades and dial.

And still has a 2 dice primary. WoW a 25 points ueber-tie ^_°

2 points cheaper than an ORS, 5 points cheaper than a WSF. Same primary attacks. Better upgrades and dial.

Yeah! It's cheaper than... the other ships nobody ever uses.

Put together a list that includes a CS and makes sense competitively and we'll talk. Until you can do that, I'm afraid last FAQ changed pretty much everything about the way low-PS jumpmasters are used. Claiming otherwise is a tad ludicrous.

And still has a 2 dice primary. WoW a 25 points ueber-tie ^_°

2 points cheaper than an ORS, 5 points cheaper than a WSF. Same primary attacks. Better upgrades and dial.

It's.. pretty well known that those two ships are overcosted.

And still has a 2 dice primary. WoW a 25 points ueber-tie ^_°

2 points cheaper than an ORS, 5 points cheaper than a WSF. Same primary attacks. Better upgrades and dial.

2 and respectively 5 piints cheaper than ships that never see competitive play. Neither ORS or WSF are benchmarks for large ship generics. Both are failures.

And still has a 2 dice primary. WoW a 25 points ueber-tie ^_°

2 points cheaper than an ORS, 5 points cheaper than a WSF. Same primary attacks. Better upgrades and dial.

It's.. pretty well known that those two ships are overcosted.

If you add the title and compare it the new YT-1300 generic ... they are literally even

Yeah! It's cheaper than... the other ships nobody ever uses.

Put together a list that includes a CS and makes sense competitively and we'll talk. Until you can do that, I'm afraid last FAQ changed pretty much everything about the way low-PS jumpmasters are used. Claiming otherwise is a tad ludicrous.

Ships nobody ever uses because they're pricey and have limited upgrade access.

There's no need to put together any list with CS to try and prove anything. It's still a cheap, large base ship that has a slew of available upgrades and a great dial.

It's.. pretty well known that those two ships are overcosted.

Still a reasonable comparison, it show's the JM is staill a fantastic investment, financially and list wise.

Yeah! It's cheaper than... the other ships nobody ever uses.

Put together a list that includes a CS and makes sense competitively and we'll talk. Until you can do that, I'm afraid last FAQ changed pretty much everything about the way low-PS jumpmasters are used. Claiming otherwise is a tad ludicrous.

Ships nobody ever uses because they're pricey and have limited upgrade access.

There's no need to put together any list with CS to try and prove anything. It's still a cheap, large base ship that has a slew of available upgrades and a great dial.

It's.. pretty well known that those two ships are overcosted.

Still a reasonable comparison, it show's the JM is staill a fantastic investment, financially and list wise.

No, it is not a reasonable comparison. A reasonable comparison is made with ships that are in use, like Soontir Fel, Black Squadron/Crackshot TIEs (who come the closest in similarity) etc. Because that is the powerlevel at which this game is played in reality.

No, it is not a reasonable comparison. A reasonable comparison is made with ships that are in use, like Soontir Fel, Black Squadron/Crackshot TIEs (who come the closest in similarity) etc. Because that is the powerlevel at which this game is played in reality.

So by that logic we compare generic low PS ships to aces? Or ships that can be flown as a swarm? Large bases to small?

I don't see it personally. Regardless of meta or powerlevel (Is this an episode of Dragonball Z?).

Whatever anyones taste in this game is, I still maintain the JM is a great ship to buy, play and experiment with.

As pointed out in an excellent scum and villainy podcast recently, the complexity of the game is ratcheting up with every product release. Every new wave means thousands of interactions that need to be tested. The conclusion is the game designers are unable to accurately QA and playtest their product to avoid a critical error. The stat line on the jumpmaster being the first, with potentially more critical errors introduced with each new wave.

You wouldn't need a lot of QA to figure out the Scouts are completely broken. A ship that cheap, with 2 defense, 10 hitpoints, good dial and all sort of upgrades is indeed a critical error. Instead of FAQ'ing every card that works with the ship (that was ugly business), they should have just released reprinted Jumpmaster pilot cards (with fixed price and without that elite upgrade)...

But I agree the game is escalating in both complexity and the constant need of every release to add something new or to "break the meta". That's not good for the game at all - and will not end very well...

No, it is not a reasonable comparison. A reasonable comparison is made with ships that are in use, like Soontir Fel, Black Squadron/Crackshot TIEs (who come the closest in similarity) etc. Because that is the powerlevel at which this game is played in reality.

So by that logic we compare generic low PS ships to aces? Or ships that can be flown as a swarm? Large bases to small?

I don't see it personally. Regardless of meta or powerlevel (Is this an episode of Dragonball Z?).

Whatever anyones taste in this game is, I still maintain the JM is a great ship to buy, play and experiment with.

We don't compare them directly, we compare their efficiency and percentage of use.

I agree that the expansion is still a good buy without torpedo Scouts. They have an excellent price/hitpoint ratio which makes them great as Feedback Array blockers, Xizor escort and of course Dengaroo remains very competetive.

However saying the generic is good because it beats ships that are clearly not isn't a statement with much value. It is good because of the Elite upgrade, great dial and great price/hitpoint ration, not because the ORS is an overcosted abomination.

There's no need to put together any list with CS to try and prove anything.

Of course there is. The very point of this game is... you know... to put ships on the table and win with them. Either you can do that or you can't. It makes absolutely no difference whatsoever whether or not CS is objectively better or worse than the worst large ships in the game because it won't face the worst large ships in the game. It will face the best ships in the game (large and small) and if you can find some good way in which you could use it against them and emerge victorious then you might argue last FAQ indeed changed little. Otherwise you're plain wrong.

And still has a 2 dice primary. WoW a 25 points ueber-tie ^_°

2 points cheaper than an ORS, 5 points cheaper than a WSF. Same primary attacks. Better upgrades and dial.

Jesus, people still compare the cost of Jumpmaster to utterly useless, overcosted ships? I wonder if you compared the TIE/fo to the pre-buff Scyk, and the T-70 to the Starviper when they came out. Do you think those ships are OP, too?

And still has a 2 dice primary. WoW a 25 points ueber-tie ^_°

2 points cheaper than an ORS, 5 points cheaper than a WSF. Same primary attacks. Better upgrades and dial.

Jesus, people still compare the cost of Jumpmaster to utterly useless, overcosted ships? I wonder if you compared the TIE/fo to the pre-buff Scyk, and the T-70 to the Starviper when they came out. Do you think those ships are OP, too?

And still has a 2 dice primary. WoW a 25 points ueber-tie ^_°

2 points cheaper than an ORS, 5 points cheaper than a WSF. Same primary attacks. Better upgrades and dial.

Jesus, people still compare the cost of Jumpmaster to utterly useless, overcosted ships? I wonder if you compared the TIE/fo to the pre-buff Scyk, and the T-70 to the Starviper when they came out. Do you think those ships are OP, too?

Well, the T-70 doesn't compare that well (or well at all) with the Star Viper.

I agree that Fantasy Flight Games aren't taking into account the biggest problems. I can't tell about Uboats since I never played with or against them, only heard they were really strong as meta game, which is why they nerfed Deadeye. But... what about Palpatine? For me, that card breaks the whole game, if it can't suffer any kind of nerf like be limited to a range instead of taking effect in the whole map, then it should be banned in tournaments at least. That upgrade alone is so strong that doesn't have anything that can counter it directly, unless you can activate Boba Fett crew early in a match. Also, another biggest problem that I see are the turrets and the cannons being overpowered while the missiles and torpedoes aren't. You won't see Y-Wings and B-Wings loaded with torpedoes, you will see them with turrets or cannons. Missiles and torpedoes are almost totally ignored on X-Wing Miniatures and they deserve a better fix and a better utility, specialy for small ships that don't have more than one slot for those weapons.

Of course there is. The very point of this game is... you know... to put ships on the table and win with them. Either you can do that or you can't. It makes absolutely no difference whatsoever whether or not CS is objectively better or worse than the worst large ships in the game because it won't face the worst large ships in the game. It will face the best ships in the game (large and small) and if you can find some good way in which you could use it against them and emerge victorious then you might argue last FAQ indeed changed little. Otherwise you're plain wrong.

It doesn't really matter about it facing the ships I mentioned, it matters because for less points you get more ship and more options than you would otherwise. Therefore, they have more than enough justification to play and come up against the best ships in the game. For a generic PS3, that's excellent. You don't have to put together a list in full because any player can see that a verstaile, tough ship for 30pts is better than a below average ship for 40pts.

So no, I'm not plain wrong at all. Perhaps misinformed, maybe ignorant to top level tournament play, but not outright wrong.

Jesus, people still compare the cost of Jumpmaster to utterly useless, overcosted ships? I wonder if you compared the TIE/fo to the pre-buff Scyk, and the T-70 to the Starviper when they came out. Do you think those ships are OP, too?

Wow. Who pissed in your chips? For the record, I would compare the TIE/fo to a standard TIE, and T-70 to T-65 for all that it matters. So many people angry and teary-eyed about the meta and power balance, completely overlooking the practicality of a **** good ship.

EDIT: Censored "d-amn" and not "pissed"?

But... what about Palpatine? For me, that card breaks the whole game, if it can't suffer any kind of nerf like be limited to a range instead of taking effect in the whole map, then it should be banned in tournaments at least. That upgrade alone is so strong that doesn't have anything that can counter it directly, unless you can activate Boba Fett crew early in a match.

The simplest way to deal with Palp is probably simply to trash his ride. He can only go on the Lambda or the Decimator, neither of which are exatly meta-breaking on their own and can be burned down fairly quickly due to their low agility and limited dials. The trick is to minimise the damage you suffer from the accompanying Aces while you do so.

But... what about Palpatine? For me, that card breaks the whole game, if it can't suffer any kind of nerf like be limited to a range instead of taking effect in the whole map, then it should be banned in tournaments at least. That upgrade alone is so strong that doesn't have anything that can counter it directly, unless you can activate Boba Fett crew early in a match.

The simplest way to deal with Palp is probably simply to trash his ride. He can only go on the Lambda or the Decimator, neither of which are exatly meta-breaking on their own and can be burned down fairly quickly due to their low agility and limited dials. The trick is to minimise the damage you suffer from the accompanying Aces while you do so.

Lambda Shuttle? Yes. PS10 boosting Decimator? No.And even with the Lambda Shuttle you need some time during which you will be teared up by aces.

There is no cookie-cutter way to deal with Palpaces, thats why it is a top meta list. Ideally you want to burn the Shuttle, but often thats not possible so you need to take another opportunity and try to punch through an ace. There you are at the mercy of dice. You must not fail the reds and then require the highly fixed dice of the ace to fail, not an atractive perspective.

I agree that Fantasy Flight Games aren't taking into account the biggest problems. I can't tell about Uboats since I never played with or against them, only heard they were really strong as meta game, which is why they nerfed Deadeye. But... what about Palpatine? For me, that card breaks the whole game, if it can't suffer any kind of nerf like be limited to a range instead of taking effect in the whole map, then it should be banned in tournaments at least. That upgrade alone is so strong that doesn't have anything that can counter it directly

So many incorrect statements here.

1. They are taking it into account, as the rebel regen and stress lists were what kept Palpatine in check, before the arrival of the Nerfmasters. Now those lists can be used again.

2. If Palpatine breaks the entire game for you, I'd hazard a guess and say that you've never played competitively at a high level/or simply don't know how to handle a Palp Aces list. The default kill order is weakest ace -> Shuttle -> toughest ace. If you can bum-rush with fast Attack 3+ ships it is Shuttle-> weakest ace -> toughest ace.

3. "That upgrade alone is so strong that doesn't have anything that can counter it directly" but that is the thing, it isn't strong alone, it takes the right combination of those remaining 71 points in order to click - how often do you see it in a TIE Swarm, with Bombers?. And the die mod is ONCE per turn, often forcing the Palp player to save it for defense, in which case it mechanically becomes an instant regenerating shield/hull (that, granted; can also deny certain triggers). Rebels have had regen in spades for ages AS WELL as strong control options and Turret ships. Now they're back again.

The devs will likely wait and see how the return of the Rebels will influence the game, before moving on to Palpatine/something else.

There is no cookie-cutter way to deal with Palpaces,

But there is, and it works.

X-Wing is a game of resources, invest and spend them wisely.

i.e. if you expect to see lots of Palp Ace lists at an event, build and play around that.

Now that there are no/few loo-boats around to trash Rebel players that just became a whole lot easier to do.

Why are people still so sour about Palpatine? It's once a turn and requires a minimum 29pt investment. It's powerful, but has to be used carefully and at the right time, and does not remotely compare with triple JumpMasters or the old Phantom in terms of effect on the overall game.

The 'counter' is to kill him, or to focus fire on one of his non-Fel friends such that he can't save them from all of the damage.

Agromech was nerfed for a reason. I remember that early on during the u-boat surge I cooked up a list with Wes, Biggs and Lothal Rebel that made it very hard for u-boats to use their torpedoes effectively. I played against a really good player and managed to deny his alpha almost entirely. He fired 2 torpedoes during the entire match. One at the very start and the other in the last round. I still lost. U-boats' primaries were so stupidly strong that he simply didn't have to use torpedoes at all to defeat me. His ships' fantastic mobility coupled with agromech-boosted accuracy did the trick just fine.

OC4 makes u-boats more durable... for a round. But a stressed u-boat can neither fire it's torpedoes (so you don't have to take that into account while planning your moves) nor use barrel roll (which significantly reduces the number of blocking positions it can take in the following round). That's why OC4 u-boats are more manageable. The number of sensible combinations of maneuvers they can make shrink rapidly when they get stressed and they actually have to use their torpedoes to be effective. If you deny them their alpha strike or at least force them to stagger torpedo salvos, they lose.

Loss of Deadeye is far worse for them than the loss of agromech though. Firstly, during the first round of shooting they won't get to fire their torpedoes at all. They might get them off in round 2 but due to their low PS they'll take full focus fire from the entire enemy list for 2 rounds before the can bring any serious firepower to bear. That's enough for one u-boat to go down before it accomplishes anything meaningful. Furthermore, since they can't bank focus, the torpedo salvo will only be modified by guidance chips unless they take Dengar or Secdroid on board. But if they do, not only will the cost of the u-boats rise, but they won't be able to take 4-LOM, Zuckuss or Boba.

If you can make u-boats work after the FAQ - kudos to you. But unless someone proves otherwise in a large tournament, I'm fairly convinced u-boat packs are dead and buried competitively.

Jesus, people still compare the cost of Jumpmaster to utterly useless, overcosted ships? I wonder if you compared the TIE/fo to the pre-buff Scyk, and the T-70 to the Starviper when they came out. Do you think those ships are OP, too?

Wow. Who pissed in your chips? For the record, I would compare the TIE/fo to a standard TIE, and T-70 to T-65 for all that it matters. So many people angry and teary-eyed about the meta and power balance, completely overlooking the practicality of a **** good ship.

EDIT: Censored "d-amn" and not "pissed"?

Noone pissed in my chips. I was trying make a point that you are using double standard. The comparison between the cost of the Jumpmaster and ORS comes up again and again and again. It has been pointed out several times that it is a bad baseline. If you compare JM5K to a notoriously bad ship, than you should do the same with other ships. Compare EVERY ship in the game to a really bad one, or compare JM5K to a good one. Otherwise your argument cannot be taken seriously.

Edit: FYI, I agree that the Jumpmaster is a very good ship, despite the nerf. But it has nothing to do with the ORS or WSF.

How about just comparing it to a ship that was seen competitively before it came out? It's two points more than a Kwing. For those two points you get an extra hull and agility as well as a far superior dial, not to mention much better upgrade options.

That's a much better comparison, however you forgot the large base, the turret slot and SLAM of K-wing and the JM5K barrel roll.