I'd love for that list to work, but good luck getting those TLs versus the dominating PS7+ lists.

Can't say I've ever had problems acquiring Target Locks on ships. What you no longer have is the easymode "just focus and see if they come into arc" approach. You have to work for your targets. You'll have to setup multiple overlapping arcs after acquiring your targets. But it still hits like a truck and Manaroo gives you some flexibility on target switching in the combat phase.

2 months ago, I too was skeptical of the long term effectiveness of TIE/D's vs. x7's. But I started trying them in various builds at various venues.

I have determined that a TIE/D list is much more skill dependent than an x7 list. The x7 is numerically superior to the TIE/D, the only way for the TIE/D to outperform the x7 is to maximize the control from the cannon shots. This means that the approach must be managed carefully for TIE/D's to shine whereas x7's can afford to just rush right in.

Furthermore, there are only 2 or 3 really worthwhile TIE/D builds (small variations ignored) that are worthwhile. I have settled on the one I like and have achieved a 90% win rate at tournaments with it so far having racked up 3 1st place finishes and 2 second place finishes at OP kit events in the last 2 months (out of 5 attended). I'm still testing the limits of the squad, so I'm not sure if it's what I'm taking to regionals yet, but my investigation so far clearly indicates that to dismiss TIE/D's without taking a second look is a mistake.

It's not really surprising that TIE/D's would be utterly neglected in a given area even if they can be good. Like I said, there seems to be a very narrow selection of really good lists for them. And on top of that, you can't just pick up one of those good lists and go. You have to play it the right way or it won't work.

What was the list you were flying?

I'd love for that list to work, but good luck getting those TLs versus the dominating PS7+ lists.

Can't say I've ever had problems acquiring Target Locks on ships. What you no longer have is the easymode "just focus and see if they come into arc" approach. You have to work for your targets. You'll have to setup multiple overlapping arcs after acquiring your targets. But it still hits like a truck and Manaroo gives you some flexibility on target switching in the combat phase.

What you're describing is the whole point Triple Jumps were used to begin with!

Yes, the ship is still viable. No, the U-Boat list no longer is.

Sure, you can fly the same list, swapping Deadeye, of course, but the fundamental nature of the list has changed, and it is no longer open to all skill levels, as it was previously. And, honestly, even for higher skilled players, it has lost ALL of its auto-win scenarios, which is extremely important to consider. Out flying a low PS list dependent on target locks is not that high of a skill barrier.

... And for the TIE/D discussion... There is no magical combination of unheard of cards that prevents the "swing" of the ship. All the dice mods in the world don't gaurantee a thing. And the x7 title doesn't have any similar weakness -- even if you can block the somewhat predictable nature of their moves (which, honestly, don't need to be predictable at all), they still get the evade, which is guaranteed. And the users in this thread hardly make a compelling argument, in terms of hard data, even if my earlier sarcasm was misunderstood.

I don't want them to change the X7 title but if they did it could be that the evade token is only awarded if they don't bump as well as performing the 3+ speed mounuver.

.

I'm mostly worried about Lothal Ghosts. It's a lot of health to chew through and the uboats were one of its biggest weaknesses.

Not really, super biggs was sufficient protection against uboats, you can't kill him a 2 dice pwt and you waste a lot of torps on him if you go for him, leaving the ghost with its 4 TLT shots or 4/5 dice primary + TLT to rather safe to decimate the scouts slowly. Once biggs is dead you see a scout explode as well. ;-)

Other variant without the title is a warden instead of the phantom, which kill the scouts too.

I really like the scout removal from the game as it will show how healthy the meta was with them in it. Worlds and regionals gonna be fun.

Brobots will return!!!....maybe. Well, they have more chances than before.

I'll confess to not having read the whole thread, but I'd like to pipe up on behalf of the TIE/D, because I think it's great. Yes, x/7 is the more consistent title, since it's guaranteed, but the ability to shoot twice should never be underestimated, especially when one of those shots threatens ion or tractor tokens. Even if those attacks don't hit, they have the potential to remove token defences as a result, and if there is enough else in the list with a shot on the target, they can capitalise on it.

In my experience, x/7's risk becoming very predictable (and easily blockable) if they go for the evade token every turn, whereas the TIE/D has the whole dial available without losing out on the title ability.

It's dice dependent, sure. But then so is most everything else in the game, and while I wouldn't say TIE/D is better then x/7, or even comparable in ruthless efficiency, it shouldn't be so readily dismissed either.

Anecdotally, you might be surprised how well TIE/D does against Dengaroo - all the focus tokens or rerolls in the world don't help you if you have 2 defence dice against 3 ion hits...

I'd like to reiterate, that before I inadvertently started this x7 vs D discussion got started, that I was specifically addressing the problem of Rebel Regen when I brought up the utility of the TIE/D title. I wasn't trying to say that x7 was terrible, or anything, or that TIE/Ds would come to dominate, but merely that some of the lists "discouraged" by Uboats were some of the prime prey for TIE/D. When the titles were spoiled, Fat Turrets, Rebel Regen, TLTs, and PalpAces were the order of the day, although PalpAces hadn't been augmented by the Inquisitor yet. Fat Turrets, AGI 2 Rebels, and TLTs were all very susceptible to getting hit by the TIE/D's control cannons, and while Aces could dodge them, they often had to spend tokens to do it, leaving them more vulnernable to the follow up shot.

Basically, TIE/Ds didn't have a bad matchup against anything in the Wave 7 meta and I can't see anything that gives them a terrible matchup in a Wave 9/HOTR meta. The real effect of the Jumpmaster reduction is that while Uboats were not an optimal matchup, against TIE/Ds, they kept out powerful lists, like Rebel Regen, that were favorable matchups for TIE/Ds. So the net advantage of TIE/Ds goes up, and it is specifically powerful against one of the more annoying lists out there, Rebel Regen.

I'll agree with what others have said that a TIE/D doesn't slot into a list like an x7 does. The TIE/D defines the list. The best results I've had have been with two TIE/Ds plus a blocker, otherwise you end up with a ship that sticks out like a sore thumb and is targeted first. Having a pair of them in a list helps reinforce the massive offense and it helps one make it to the end-game where the control cannon is even more powerful.

2 months ago, I too was skeptical of the long term effectiveness of TIE/D's vs. x7's. But I started trying them in various builds at various venues.

I have determined that a TIE/D list is much more skill dependent than an x7 list. The x7 is numerically superior to the TIE/D, the only way for the TIE/D to outperform the x7 is to maximize the control from the cannon shots. This means that the approach must be managed carefully for TIE/D's to shine whereas x7's can afford to just rush right in.

Furthermore, there are only 2 or 3 really worthwhile TIE/D builds (small variations ignored) that are worthwhile. I have settled on the one I like and have achieved a 90% win rate at tournaments with it so far having racked up 3 1st place finishes and 2 second place finishes at OP kit events in the last 2 months (out of 5 attended). I'm still testing the limits of the squad, so I'm not sure if it's what I'm taking to regionals yet, but my investigation so far clearly indicates that to dismiss TIE/D's without taking a second look is a mistake.

It's not really surprising that TIE/D's would be utterly neglected in a given area even if they can be good. Like I said, there seems to be a very narrow selection of really good lists for them. And on top of that, you can't just pick up one of those good lists and go. You have to play it the right way or it won't work.

What was the list you were flying?

I'm currently flying the same list that Biophysical wrote about taking to GenCon this year:

Rexlar+TIE/D+Predator+Hull Upgrade+Tractor Beam

Maarek+TIE/D+Predator+Hull Upgrade+Ion Cannon

Academy TIE

I keep trying to tweak it, but there just doesn't seem to be a better configuration for two heavily loaded TIE/D's.

2 months ago, I too was skeptical of the long term effectiveness of TIE/D's vs. x7's. But I started trying them in various builds at various venues.

I have determined that a TIE/D list is much more skill dependent than an x7 list. The x7 is numerically superior to the TIE/D, the only way for the TIE/D to outperform the x7 is to maximize the control from the cannon shots. This means that the approach must be managed carefully for TIE/D's to shine whereas x7's can afford to just rush right in.

Furthermore, there are only 2 or 3 really worthwhile TIE/D builds (small variations ignored) that are worthwhile. I have settled on the one I like and have achieved a 90% win rate at tournaments with it so far having racked up 3 1st place finishes and 2 second place finishes at OP kit events in the last 2 months (out of 5 attended). I'm still testing the limits of the squad, so I'm not sure if it's what I'm taking to regionals yet, but my investigation so far clearly indicates that to dismiss TIE/D's without taking a second look is a mistake.

It's not really surprising that TIE/D's would be utterly neglected in a given area even if they can be good. Like I said, there seems to be a very narrow selection of really good lists for them. And on top of that, you can't just pick up one of those good lists and go. You have to play it the right way or it won't work.

What was the list you were flying?

I'm currently flying the same list that Biophysical wrote about taking to GenCon this year:

Rexlar+TIE/D+Predator+Hull Upgrade+Tractor Beam

Maarek+TIE/D+Predator+Hull Upgrade+Ion Cannon

Academy TIE

I keep trying to tweak it, but there just doesn't seem to be a better configuration for two heavily loaded TIE/D's.

I'm pretty happy with that list. Every time I convince myself to drop something to get an Ion Cannon on Rexler, I miss what I lost. Tractor Beam either hits and something mean to (making up for a lack of 2nd Ion Cannon), or it strips tokens or misses, making it the same effect as an Ion Cannon in that position. If the meta shifted to be full of Ghosts and YV-666s and Decimators, I'd probably find a way to make the switch, but with everything else in play, the Tractor is good enough.

Why Rexlar and Maarek specifically though? Sounds like a really interesting list...

Why Rexlar and Maarek specifically though? Sounds like a really interesting list...

I would wager mostly for PS reasons and because Vessery actually has bad synergy with Rexler. I guess Riad could be considered, but the high PS just seems really usefull.

Ryad is monstrous though despite the low PSand I'm not hugely fond of Rexlar. I want to try it out, but might try swapping in Ryad too. I loves her.

Ryad is monstrous though despite the low PSand I'm not hugely fond of Rexlar. I want to try it out, but might try swapping in Ryad too. I loves her.

It's mostly about PS, getting PS-kills and having a little arc-dodging possibilities against stuff like Bossk, Brobots, and Dash. You could certainly try Ryad, it doesn't dramatically change the list and you'd have the points for an Ion Cannon instead of Tractor Beam.

Thanks man I want to give your version a go first I think, definitely makes sense to try and PS kill where possible. I've enjoyed reading your previous posts about using Defenders before the titles were released too

Thanks man I want to give your version a go first I think, definitely makes sense to try and PS kill where possible. I've enjoyed reading your previous posts about using Defenders before the titles were released too

Thanks! I always say try things yourself. Even if you think Rex makes sense, try Ryad if you like her. There's probably plenty of ways her ability adds its own strength to the list that I haven't considered because I'm playing the way that I play. If you have a lot of reps with Ryad, you're probably seeing more opportunities than I am, so you should give it a shot.

No worries, I think I read a post by you shortly before buying a Defender that I found really useful. I played them a lot before the titles and thought they were great even then.

Ryad is easily my most played Defender, I've tried her with multiple builds and have really come to love her and will definitely try her in this build.

Brobots will return!!!....maybe. Well, they have more chances than before.

I didn't think that Brobots had problems with Triple U-Boats. I thought Palp Aces was their tough match-up.

Welcome your quad tie bomber overlords.

I'm hoping this happens. I know a lot of people just haven't flown Tie Bombers....or flown them effectively. I have and I think they are awesome. Once you get used to them, they can cause some serious damage. Four Tie Bombers with Homing Missiles are just so much nastier than U-boats. The first Vet puts the LRS TL on the one Ace that you want to scare away. He alone has a 98% of getting through a fully tokened up Soontir. You hope you telegraph your thoughts and that Soontir bugs out for a turn. The rest of your list can beat up on the rest of his list. It's a 27 pt ship scaring a 35 pt ship out of the game for a turn.

If I were going to a big event, I'd fly:

Brobots will return!!!....maybe. Well, they have more chances than before.

I didn't think that Brobots had problems with Triple U-Boats. I thought Palp Aces was their tough match-up.

yeah i was always under the impression palpaces killed them.

Large base ships with high speeds can close the distance on the scouts so fast they will never get a torp off reliably unless they snuck an adv in there and somehow pulled it off. Which case then the brobots would just play the evasive game and win on that merit too since they can *gasp* turn right!

Triple x7s wasn't suppressed by triple Uboats, so I'm betting you'll see them just as much as before.

Also, I still favor two x7s and an Ace. Threw that against one of the better players in my group and he just said afterwards "Those things are impossible to lay damage on."

But now that triple scouts is WAY less effective (gasp, they actually have to deal with target locking torps at PS3...), I think you'll see a lot more ships of lower agility come back into use since they can't just be insta-killed by a scout with chips and protons.

Also, I foresee a LOT of Rebel players trotting out Sabine's TIE and loading it up with lots of points only to realize after a game or two what everyone who's ever flown the Empire has known: you don't sink a bunch of points into a ship with 3 hull and no shield. There's a good reason you don't see experienced Imperial players putting 20+ point TIE Fighters into their lists, outside of Howlrunner. I saw some people proposing 26 point versions of Sabine and I just shook my head thinking "Just wait until you roll 3 blanks on your greens and lose a quarter of your squad points in one shot, then you'll learn."

So once the "Oh God, look at all my upgrade options!" period dies down, the Rebel TIEs have some decent abilities and you'll see them naked or with one upgrade tops.

I would predict that we see better variety of ships in the tournaments, maybe more TLT's, Brobots...

I didn't think that Brobots had problems with Triple U-Boats. I thought Palp Aces was their tough match-up.

Yeah, glitter thrusters and an evade meant aggressors would take little (sometimes no) damage in the first engagement. Meanwhile the scout with Boba works be lucky to have three hull remaining and would be ps killed before getting a proton through to hull.

The palp aces match is hard...but it's hard for both players, because fcs gunner crackshot gives inquisitor or omega or whisper nightmares.

Also, I foresee a LOT of Rebel players trotting out Sabine's TIE and loading it up with lots of points only to realize after a game or two what everyone who's ever flown the Empire has known: you don't sink a bunch of points into a ship with 3 hull and no shield. There's a good reason you don't see experienced Imperial players putting 20+ point TIE Fighters into their lists, outside of Howlrunner. I saw some people proposing 26 point versions of Sabine and I just shook my head thinking "Just wait until you roll 3 blanks on your greens and lose a quarter of your squad points in one shot, then you'll learn."

I expect that some 20+ point Ashokas with Captured TIE are likely to stick around as a support ship even after the shiny newness wears off.