I like Asajj Ventress with Latts Razzi a lot for the exact reason where green dice matter less, because you can spend that stress you just gave out for the enemy to add evade and with my experience the skill of Latts Razzi crew excecutes pretty often.

also the idea that the torp scouts were somehow gatekeeping Tie/Ds is laughable

it's got Biggs health with +1 agility and no r4-d6 (and more crit vulnerability due to lack of integrated), you don't need to be a torpscout to kill one

if anything, I'd say palp + anything would be gatekeeping the /Ds, as there's not a hint of a prayer of hitting anything through him and an evade token

But it's been done. Like I keep saying, duel TIE/D's are dominating in my area. The reason it's not catching on everywhere is because it takes more skill to use properly then an x7 and you have to build around it, not just toss it in like you would an x7. The good TIE/D teams I've seen aren't using naked dice. They have upgrades and/or abilities to get through the enemy's defenses. I would have thought you of all people would understand that a good double tap has the advantage going up against green dice.

Ficklegreendice likes things that make green dice matter less.

A free evade token every turn makes the green dice matter a whole lot less.

Living significantly longer because you effectively have Imperial Regen means you more than make up for the lack of cannon shot because you're probably getting 1, 2, maybe 3 additional turns of combat over a TIE/D. And you cost less, too. Up to 5 points less than a TIE/D.

problem with the "kill them first" mentality is you're just making dice matter more

i.e your opponent's green dice

one lucky streak and you're up **** creek without an evade token

which obviously isn't to say it'll never work, but the reliability becomes suspect over a x rounds and against the several likely match-ups

it's just a sad thing I've noticed playing games with high offense glass cannons such as Ds or bombers (or even swarms back in the dark ages of the fat PWT), sometimes your opponent's green dice just flip you the bird and you enter impossible to win scenarios simply because you can't hope to match guaranteed defenses with what's left of your forces

the more games you play, the more you tempt that kind of thing happening to you

also the idea that the torp scouts were somehow gatekeeping Tie/Ds is laughable

it's got Biggs health with +1 agility and no r4-d6 (and more crit vulnerability due to lack of integrated), you don't need to be a torpscout to kill one


if anything, I'd say palp + anything would be gatekeeping the /Ds, as there's not a hint of a prayer of hitting anything through him and an evade token

But it's been done. Like I keep saying, duel TIE/D's are dominating in my area. The reason it's not catching on everywhere is because it takes more skill to use properly then an x7 and you have to build around it, not just toss it in like you would an x7. The good TIE/D teams I've seen aren't using naked dice. They have upgrades and/or abilities to get through the enemy's defenses. I would have thought you of all people would understand that a good double tap has the advantage going up against green dice.

it doesn't, though, not to a reliable enough degree

even Vessery with crackshot gets one good "crack" at it and they're we're back to playing yahtzee with different color dice

that's been my experience anyway, but maybe I'm cursed relative to everyone else

But if Vessery is in the right team, he should be getting two modded shots. Yeah, that goes down if he's left alone, but by that point, he's potentially already done a lot of damage.
Other TIE/D's benefit from stuff like Predator to keep some dice modding for each shot, and from what I've seen, it can be enough, with proper flying.
I understand that this doesn't work in your experience, but it does in others, including mine.

oh trust me, I tried with plenty of TL enabling from omega L and PTL x7 ryad; getting full mods (ish, only 1 focus) isn't always enough

that's just the world we live in when palp (or just dice) is involved

no, the only way to get rid of dice is to...get rid of dice, which is why regen and x7s are so powerful (or to be torp scouts level s of busted)

which, to be clear, isn't to imply that the D is somehow "bad", but it's a lot more dice driven than its control elements can lead one to believe

and when dice take the wheel, no amount of skill will save you. Best you can do is endure and hope they decide to give it back.

Given that Torp Scouts never really appeared in our meta here (although there was a **** load of Denagroo); I don't expect to see much change in this neck of the woods.

via Imgflip Meme Generator

With Dengaroo still running around? Good luck with that.

Yeah, Manny will have a ball trying to dodge unhinged tlt thugs before dropping in round 3-4.

Have you tried the matchup? It's surprisingly easy to kite TLTs with a PtL Boost + BR ship that moves after them... and meanwhile Dengar just eats them alive at close range.

I thought you spam Dengar with the TLTs first. He has only 2 agility dice. (3 for 1 turn)

problem with the "kill them first" mentality is you're just making dice matter more

i.e your opponent's green dice

one lucky streak and you're up **** creek without an evade token

which obviously isn't to say it'll never work, but the reliability becomes suspect over a x rounds and against the several likely match-ups

it's just a sad thing I've noticed playing games with high offense glass cannons such as Ds or bombers, sometimes your opponent's green dice just flip you the bird and you enter impossible to win scenarios simply because you can't hope to match guaranteed defenses with what's left of your forces

also the idea that the torp scouts were somehow gatekeeping Tie/Ds is laughable

it's got Biggs health with +1 agility and no r4-d6 (and more crit vulnerability due to lack of integrated), you don't need to be a torpscout to kill one

if anything, I'd say palp + anything would be gatekeeping the /Ds, as there's not a hint of a prayer of hitting anything through him and an evade token

But it's been done. Like I keep saying, duel TIE/D's are dominating in my area. The reason it's not catching on everywhere is because it takes more skill to use properly then an x7 and you have to build around it, not just toss it in like you would an x7. The good TIE/D teams I've seen aren't using naked dice. They have upgrades and/or abilities to get through the enemy's defenses. I would have thought you of all people would understand that a good double tap has the advantage going up against green dice.

it doesn't, though, not to a reliable enough degree

even Vessery with crackshot gets one good "crack" at it and they're we're back to playing yahtzee with different color dice

that's been my experience anyway, but maybe I'm cursed relative to everyone else

But if Vessery is in the right team, he should be getting two modded shots. Yeah, that goes down if he's left alone, but by that point, he's potentially already done a lot of damage.

Other TIE/D's benefit from stuff like Predator to keep some dice modding for each shot, and from what I've seen, it can be enough, with proper flying.

I understand that this doesn't work in your experience, but it does in others, including mine.

oh trust me, I tried with plenty of TL enabling from omega L and PTL x7 ryad; getting full mods (ish, only 1 focus) isn't always enough

that's just the world we live in when palp (or just dice) is involved

In some cases, you're right. TIE/D's aren't getting perfect double taps every round and winning against everything brought before them. But considering they're winning tournaments, doing well at regionals, and have several people this dedicated to them to be willing to argue the point over and over again should tell you there is more to this title then the droll nickname of "TIE/Don't".

I can understand if this type of ship might not be your cup of tea, but don't assume because you don't like it that it is useless.

problem with the "kill them first" mentality is you're just making dice matter more

i.e your opponent's green dice

one lucky streak and you're up **** creek without an evade token

which obviously isn't to say it'll never work, but the reliability becomes suspect over a x rounds and against the several likely match-ups

it's just a sad thing I've noticed playing games with high offense glass cannons such as Ds or bombers (or even swarms back in the dark ages of the fat PWT), sometimes your opponent's green dice just flip you the bird and you enter impossible to win scenarios simply because you can't hope to match guaranteed defenses with what's left of your forces

the more games you play, the more you tempt that kind of thing happening to you

also the idea that the torp scouts were somehow gatekeeping Tie/Ds is laughable

it's got Biggs health with +1 agility and no r4-d6 (and more crit vulnerability due to lack of integrated), you don't need to be a torpscout to kill one

if anything, I'd say palp + anything would be gatekeeping the /Ds, as there's not a hint of a prayer of hitting anything through him and an evade token

But it's been done. Like I keep saying, duel TIE/D's are dominating in my area. The reason it's not catching on everywhere is because it takes more skill to use properly then an x7 and you have to build around it, not just toss it in like you would an x7. The good TIE/D teams I've seen aren't using naked dice. They have upgrades and/or abilities to get through the enemy's defenses. I would have thought you of all people would understand that a good double tap has the advantage going up against green dice.

it doesn't, though, not to a reliable enough degree

even Vessery with crackshot gets one good "crack" at it and they're we're back to playing yahtzee with different color dice

that's been my experience anyway, but maybe I'm cursed relative to everyone else

But if Vessery is in the right team, he should be getting two modded shots. Yeah, that goes down if he's left alone, but by that point, he's potentially already done a lot of damage.

Other TIE/D's benefit from stuff like Predator to keep some dice modding for each shot, and from what I've seen, it can be enough, with proper flying.

I understand that this doesn't work in your experience, but it does in others, including mine.

oh trust me, I tried with plenty of TL enabling from omega L and PTL x7 ryad; getting full mods (ish, only 1 focus) isn't always enough

that's just the world we live in when palp (or just dice) is involved

The problem with TIE/D is that the best builds still arent guaranteed.

Vessery is very, very close but not guaranteed. I still remember fondly when i was playing Vessery/Inqy/Omega Lead and had the target of my choice right there at range 2. Had him TL'd with Omega, had a focus, rolled for Ion.... blank blank focus. Rolled for TL.... Blank blank. Didn't even bother spending focus. Rolled attack..... triple blank. TL Reroll.... double blank focus.

Didn't even bother spending focus. Again.

But X/7? That evade is guaranteed. You're guaranteed to dodge a damage a turn.

TIE/D is a ship that relies on control and alpha, but can't really alpha. TIE/X7 works easiest because it's just simpler to take the shots you can and keep yourself safe with the actionless evade you just GOT FOR FREE that turn so you can 4k next turn and do it again, whereas TIE/D relies on not only your dice, but your opponents dice, and if your dice fail or theirs succeed, you have nothing to protect yourself and nothing to show for your efforts. If a TIE/D loses a dice trade, you're that much closer to losing the game. TIE/X7 doesnt entirely mind if it doesn't do damage that turn, as long as it dodges incoming damage, which is easier to do.

TIE/D can work, but anything can go wrong for it at any moment, and all of a sudden it's not working. The meta isn't really big on taking chances, which is why Palp Aces, Dengaroo, and trip jumps were so huge because there's so little chance you're taking in using them, so little commitment. TIE/D is a huge commitment, and i respect and love TIE/D builds for that reason, but it's not nor will it ever be a better choice than TIE/X7. It's why Norra, Biggs, and Poe are/were so used because it significantly reduces the chance in the equation. TIE/D doesn't do that, all it does is give you an additional attack.

problem with the "kill them first" mentality is you're just making dice matter more

i.e your opponent's green dice

one lucky streak and you're up **** creek without an evade token

which obviously isn't to say it'll never work, but the reliability becomes suspect over a x rounds and against the several likely match-ups

it's just a sad thing I've noticed playing games with high offense glass cannons such as Ds or bombers, sometimes your opponent's green dice just flip you the bird and you enter impossible to win scenarios simply because you can't hope to match guaranteed defenses with what's left of your forces

also the idea that the torp scouts were somehow gatekeeping Tie/Ds is laughable

it's got Biggs health with +1 agility and no r4-d6 (and more crit vulnerability due to lack of integrated), you don't need to be a torpscout to kill one

if anything, I'd say palp + anything would be gatekeeping the /Ds, as there's not a hint of a prayer of hitting anything through him and an evade token

But it's been done. Like I keep saying, duel TIE/D's are dominating in my area. The reason it's not catching on everywhere is because it takes more skill to use properly then an x7 and you have to build around it, not just toss it in like you would an x7. The good TIE/D teams I've seen aren't using naked dice. They have upgrades and/or abilities to get through the enemy's defenses. I would have thought you of all people would understand that a good double tap has the advantage going up against green dice.

it doesn't, though, not to a reliable enough degree

even Vessery with crackshot gets one good "crack" at it and they're we're back to playing yahtzee with different color dice

that's been my experience anyway, but maybe I'm cursed relative to everyone else

But if Vessery is in the right team, he should be getting two modded shots. Yeah, that goes down if he's left alone, but by that point, he's potentially already done a lot of damage.

Other TIE/D's benefit from stuff like Predator to keep some dice modding for each shot, and from what I've seen, it can be enough, with proper flying.

I understand that this doesn't work in your experience, but it does in others, including mine.

oh trust me, I tried with plenty of TL enabling from omega L and PTL x7 ryad; getting full mods (ish, only 1 focus) isn't always enough

that's just the world we live in when palp (or just dice) is involved

And yet, as some people keep telling you, it works. That world you mentioned is big enough for someone with the right skills and team to make good use of TIE/Ds, even with dice (which are planned for, as stated multiple times above).

In some cases, you're right. TIE/D's aren't getting perfect double taps every round and winning against everything brought before them. But considering they're winning tournaments, doing well at regionals, and have several people this dedicated to them to be willing to argue the point over and over again should tell you there is more to this title then the droll nickname of "TIE/Don't".

I can understand if this type of ship might not be your cup of tea, but don't assume because you don't like it that it is useless.

no one said it's useless, it's not the B-wing

seems you're fixating too hard on the title

in which case, we can change it from the TIE/Don't to the TIE/Dice

Tie/Depends

Wait...

Tie/Depends

Wait...

depends on what you mean by depends

...palpatine?

problem with the "kill them first" mentality is you're just making dice matter more

i.e your opponent's green dice

one lucky streak and you're up **** creek without an evade token

which obviously isn't to say it'll never work, but the reliability becomes suspect over a x rounds and against the several likely match-ups

it's just a sad thing I've noticed playing games with high offense glass cannons such as Ds or bombers (or even swarms back in the dark ages of the fat PWT), sometimes your opponent's green dice just flip you the bird and you enter impossible to win scenarios simply because you can't hope to match guaranteed defenses with what's left of your forces

the more games you play, the more you tempt that kind of thing happening to you

also the idea that the torp scouts were somehow gatekeeping Tie/Ds is laughable

it's got Biggs health with +1 agility and no r4-d6 (and more crit vulnerability due to lack of integrated), you don't need to be a torpscout to kill one

if anything, I'd say palp + anything would be gatekeeping the /Ds, as there's not a hint of a prayer of hitting anything through him and an evade token

But it's been done. Like I keep saying, duel TIE/D's are dominating in my area. The reason it's not catching on everywhere is because it takes more skill to use properly then an x7 and you have to build around it, not just toss it in like you would an x7. The good TIE/D teams I've seen aren't using naked dice. They have upgrades and/or abilities to get through the enemy's defenses. I would have thought you of all people would understand that a good double tap has the advantage going up against green dice.

it doesn't, though, not to a reliable enough degree

even Vessery with crackshot gets one good "crack" at it and they're we're back to playing yahtzee with different color dice

that's been my experience anyway, but maybe I'm cursed relative to everyone else

But if Vessery is in the right team, he should be getting two modded shots. Yeah, that goes down if he's left alone, but by that point, he's potentially already done a lot of damage.

Other TIE/D's benefit from stuff like Predator to keep some dice modding for each shot, and from what I've seen, it can be enough, with proper flying.

I understand that this doesn't work in your experience, but it does in others, including mine.

oh trust me, I tried with plenty of TL enabling from omega L and PTL x7 ryad; getting full mods (ish, only 1 focus) isn't always enough

that's just the world we live in when palp (or just dice) is involved

The problem with TIE/D is that the best builds still arent guaranteed.

Vessery is very, very close but not guaranteed. I still remember fondly when i was playing Vessery/Inqy/Omega Lead and had the target of my choice right there at range 2. Had him TL'd with Omega, had a focus, rolled for Ion.... blank blank focus. Rolled for TL.... Blank blank. Didn't even bother spending focus. Rolled attack..... triple blank. TL Reroll.... double blank focus.

Didn't even bother spending focus. Again.

But X/7? That evade is guaranteed. You're guaranteed to dodge a damage a turn.

TIE/D is a ship that relies on control and alpha, but can't really alpha. TIE/X7 works easiest because it's just simpler to take the shots you can and keep yourself safe with the actionless evade you just GOT FOR FREE that turn so you can 4k next turn and do it again, whereas TIE/D relies on not only your dice, but your opponents dice, and if your dice fail or theirs succeed, you have nothing to protect yourself and nothing to show for your efforts. If a TIE/D loses a dice trade, you're that much closer to losing the game. TIE/X7 doesnt entirely mind if it doesn't do damage that turn, as long as it dodges incoming damage, which is easier to do.

TIE/D can work, but anything can go wrong for it at any moment, and all of a sudden it's not working. The meta isn't really big on taking chances, which is why Palp Aces, Dengaroo, and trip jumps were so huge because there's so little chance you're taking in using them, so little commitment. TIE/D is a huge commitment, and i respect and love TIE/D builds for that reason, but it's not nor will it ever be a better choice than TIE/X7. It's why Norra, Biggs, and Poe are/were so used because it significantly reduces the chance in the equation. TIE/D doesn't do that, all it does is give you an additional attack.

i'll admit, x7s are my preferred title to fly, but not because it is obviously superior to the TIE/D. I do it because it's easier and I get to go fast. I'm not discounting the value of the x7. I'm trying to show people that there is value, albeit different, in the TIE/D, which exceeds the x7 in some cases.

I can't wait to try out ARCs, the Ghost, and other vessels freely.

no one said it's useless, it's not the B-wing

seems you're fixating too hard on the title

in which case, we can change it from the TIE/Don't to the TIE/Dice

TIE/Dice is an acceptable compromise.

problem with the "kill them first" mentality is you're just making dice matter more

i.e your opponent's green dice

one lucky streak and you're up **** creek without an evade token

which obviously isn't to say it'll never work, but the reliability becomes suspect over a x rounds and against the several likely match-ups

it's just a sad thing I've noticed playing games with high offense glass cannons such as Ds or bombers (or even swarms back in the dark ages of the fat PWT), sometimes your opponent's green dice just flip you the bird and you enter impossible to win scenarios simply because you can't hope to match guaranteed defenses with what's left of your forces

the more games you play, the more you tempt that kind of thing happening to you

also the idea that the torp scouts were somehow gatekeeping Tie/Ds is laughable

it's got Biggs health with +1 agility and no r4-d6 (and more crit vulnerability due to lack of integrated), you don't need to be a torpscout to kill one

if anything, I'd say palp + anything would be gatekeeping the /Ds, as there's not a hint of a prayer of hitting anything through him and an evade token

But it's been done. Like I keep saying, duel TIE/D's are dominating in my area. The reason it's not catching on everywhere is because it takes more skill to use properly then an x7 and you have to build around it, not just toss it in like you would an x7. The good TIE/D teams I've seen aren't using naked dice. They have upgrades and/or abilities to get through the enemy's defenses. I would have thought you of all people would understand that a good double tap has the advantage going up against green dice.

it doesn't, though, not to a reliable enough degree

even Vessery with crackshot gets one good "crack" at it and they're we're back to playing yahtzee with different color dice

that's been my experience anyway, but maybe I'm cursed relative to everyone else

But if Vessery is in the right team, he should be getting two modded shots. Yeah, that goes down if he's left alone, but by that point, he's potentially already done a lot of damage.

Other TIE/D's benefit from stuff like Predator to keep some dice modding for each shot, and from what I've seen, it can be enough, with proper flying.

I understand that this doesn't work in your experience, but it does in others, including mine.

oh trust me, I tried with plenty of TL enabling from omega L and PTL x7 ryad; getting full mods (ish, only 1 focus) isn't always enough

that's just the world we live in when palp (or just dice) is involved

The problem with TIE/D is that the best builds still arent guaranteed.

Vessery is very, very close but not guaranteed. I still remember fondly when i was playing Vessery/Inqy/Omega Lead and had the target of my choice right there at range 2. Had him TL'd with Omega, had a focus, rolled for Ion.... blank blank focus. Rolled for TL.... Blank blank. Didn't even bother spending focus. Rolled attack..... triple blank. TL Reroll.... double blank focus.

Didn't even bother spending focus. Again.

But X/7? That evade is guaranteed. You're guaranteed to dodge a damage a turn.

TIE/D is a ship that relies on control and alpha, but can't really alpha. TIE/X7 works easiest because it's just simpler to take the shots you can and keep yourself safe with the actionless evade you just GOT FOR FREE that turn so you can 4k next turn and do it again, whereas TIE/D relies on not only your dice, but your opponents dice, and if your dice fail or theirs succeed, you have nothing to protect yourself and nothing to show for your efforts. If a TIE/D loses a dice trade, you're that much closer to losing the game. TIE/X7 doesnt entirely mind if it doesn't do damage that turn, as long as it dodges incoming damage, which is easier to do.

TIE/D can work, but anything can go wrong for it at any moment, and all of a sudden it's not working. The meta isn't really big on taking chances, which is why Palp Aces, Dengaroo, and trip jumps were so huge because there's so little chance you're taking in using them, so little commitment. TIE/D is a huge commitment, and i respect and love TIE/D builds for that reason, but it's not nor will it ever be a better choice than TIE/X7. It's why Norra, Biggs, and Poe are/were so used because it significantly reduces the chance in the equation. TIE/D doesn't do that, all it does is give you an additional attack.

*Sigh*, and I suppose me mentioning that a TIE/D list beat out a list consisting of a Palp Shuttle and two x7s in a previous post in this thread doesn't factor to this equation? That match was played by two of the best players I know, and what you label inferior won. In fact, I'd say most of the time I've seen x7s and /Ds go up against each other, the /Ds won.

i'll admit, x7s are my preferred title to fly, but not because it is obviously superior to the TIE/D. I do it because it's easier and I get to go fast. I'm not discounting the value of the x7. I'm trying to show people that there is value, albeit different, in the TIE/D, which exceeds the x7 in some cases.

I mean, just because they won, doesn't disprove FGD's (and other's) argument that they're swingy. That's the problem. Some games you'll lose horribly. Some you'll blow them out of the water so hard it's not even funny. They're swingy because they rely on luck of the dice more than other meta lists. One game does not an argument make. My Zeta Leader has one-shot a Vader before. That doesn't make Zeta Leader a better pilot than Vader. It just means my dice were better than his that day.

problem with the "kill them first" mentality is you're just making dice matter more

i.e your opponent's green dice

one lucky streak and you're up **** creek without an evade token

which obviously isn't to say it'll never work, but the reliability becomes suspect over a x rounds and against the several likely match-ups

it's just a sad thing I've noticed playing games with high offense glass cannons such as Ds or bombers (or even swarms back in the dark ages of the fat PWT), sometimes your opponent's green dice just flip you the bird and you enter impossible to win scenarios simply because you can't hope to match guaranteed defenses with what's left of your forces

the more games you play, the more you tempt that kind of thing happening to you

also the idea that the torp scouts were somehow gatekeeping Tie/Ds is laughable

it's got Biggs health with +1 agility and no r4-d6 (and more crit vulnerability due to lack of integrated), you don't need to be a torpscout to kill one

if anything, I'd say palp + anything would be gatekeeping the /Ds, as there's not a hint of a prayer of hitting anything through him and an evade token

But it's been done. Like I keep saying, duel TIE/D's are dominating in my area. The reason it's not catching on everywhere is because it takes more skill to use properly then an x7 and you have to build around it, not just toss it in like you would an x7. The good TIE/D teams I've seen aren't using naked dice. They have upgrades and/or abilities to get through the enemy's defenses. I would have thought you of all people would understand that a good double tap has the advantage going up against green dice.

it doesn't, though, not to a reliable enough degree

even Vessery with crackshot gets one good "crack" at it and they're we're back to playing yahtzee with different color dice

that's been my experience anyway, but maybe I'm cursed relative to everyone else

But if Vessery is in the right team, he should be getting two modded shots. Yeah, that goes down if he's left alone, but by that point, he's potentially already done a lot of damage.

Other TIE/D's benefit from stuff like Predator to keep some dice modding for each shot, and from what I've seen, it can be enough, with proper flying.

I understand that this doesn't work in your experience, but it does in others, including mine.

oh trust me, I tried with plenty of TL enabling from omega L and PTL x7 ryad; getting full mods (ish, only 1 focus) isn't always enough

that's just the world we live in when palp (or just dice) is involved

The problem with TIE/D is that the best builds still arent guaranteed.

Vessery is very, very close but not guaranteed. I still remember fondly when i was playing Vessery/Inqy/Omega Lead and had the target of my choice right there at range 2. Had him TL'd with Omega, had a focus, rolled for Ion.... blank blank focus. Rolled for TL.... Blank blank. Didn't even bother spending focus. Rolled attack..... triple blank. TL Reroll.... double blank focus.

Didn't even bother spending focus. Again.

But X/7? That evade is guaranteed. You're guaranteed to dodge a damage a turn.

TIE/D is a ship that relies on control and alpha, but can't really alpha. TIE/X7 works easiest because it's just simpler to take the shots you can and keep yourself safe with the actionless evade you just GOT FOR FREE that turn so you can 4k next turn and do it again, whereas TIE/D relies on not only your dice, but your opponents dice, and if your dice fail or theirs succeed, you have nothing to protect yourself and nothing to show for your efforts. If a TIE/D loses a dice trade, you're that much closer to losing the game. TIE/X7 doesnt entirely mind if it doesn't do damage that turn, as long as it dodges incoming damage, which is easier to do.

TIE/D can work, but anything can go wrong for it at any moment, and all of a sudden it's not working. The meta isn't really big on taking chances, which is why Palp Aces, Dengaroo, and trip jumps were so huge because there's so little chance you're taking in using them, so little commitment. TIE/D is a huge commitment, and i respect and love TIE/D builds for that reason, but it's not nor will it ever be a better choice than TIE/X7. It's why Norra, Biggs, and Poe are/were so used because it significantly reduces the chance in the equation. TIE/D doesn't do that, all it does is give you an additional attack.

*Sigh*, and I suppose me mentioning that a TIE/D list beat out a list consisting of a Palp Shuttle and two x7s in a previous post in this thread doesn't factor to this equation? That match was played by two of the best players I know, and what you label inferior won. In fact, I'd say most of the time I've seen x7s and /Ds go up against each other, the /Ds won.

i'll admit, x7s are my preferred title to fly, but not because it is obviously superior to the TIE/D. I do it because it's easier and I get to go fast. I'm not discounting the value of the x7. I'm trying to show people that there is value, albeit different, in the TIE/D, which exceeds the x7 in some cases.

Good to know your singular experience is enough actionable data for us to jump on the new, unheard of TIE/D bandwagon.

Everyone, we can junk that other silly title, and might as well trash those evade tokens, too, we won't be needing them anymore!

okay, this is getting more polarizing than it needs to be

and I thought it was nice that the defender was getting two fix titles. never thought it'd lead to this

I mean, just because they won, doesn't disprove FGD's (and other's) argument that they're swingy. That's the problem. Some games you'll lose horribly. Some you'll blow them out of the water so hard it's not even funny. They're swingy because they rely on luck of the dice more than other meta lists. One game does not an argument make. My Zeta Leader has one-shot a Vader before. That doesn't make Zeta Leader a better pilot than Vader. It just means my dice were better than his that day.

Good to know your singular experience is enough actionable data for us to jump on the new, unheard of TIE/D bandwagon.

Everyone, we can junk that other silly title, and might as well trash those evade tokens, too, we won't be needing them anymore!

problem with the "kill them first" mentality is you're just making dice matter more

i.e your opponent's green dice

one lucky streak and you're up **** creek without an evade token

which obviously isn't to say it'll never work, but the reliability becomes suspect over a x rounds and against the several likely match-ups

it's just a sad thing I've noticed playing games with high offense glass cannons such as Ds or bombers (or even swarms back in the dark ages of the fat PWT), sometimes your opponent's green dice just flip you the bird and you enter impossible to win scenarios simply because you can't hope to match guaranteed defenses with what's left of your forces

the more games you play, the more you tempt that kind of thing happening to you

also the idea that the torp scouts were somehow gatekeeping Tie/Ds is laughable

it's got Biggs health with +1 agility and no r4-d6 (and more crit vulnerability due to lack of integrated), you don't need to be a torpscout to kill one

if anything, I'd say palp + anything would be gatekeeping the /Ds, as there's not a hint of a prayer of hitting anything through him and an evade token

But it's been done. Like I keep saying, duel TIE/D's are dominating in my area. The reason it's not catching on everywhere is because it takes more skill to use properly then an x7 and you have to build around it, not just toss it in like you would an x7. The good TIE/D teams I've seen aren't using naked dice. They have upgrades and/or abilities to get through the enemy's defenses. I would have thought you of all people would understand that a good double tap has the advantage going up against green dice.

it doesn't, though, not to a reliable enough degree

even Vessery with crackshot gets one good "crack" at it and they're we're back to playing yahtzee with different color dice

that's been my experience anyway, but maybe I'm cursed relative to everyone else

But if Vessery is in the right team, he should be getting two modded shots. Yeah, that goes down if he's left alone, but by that point, he's potentially already done a lot of damage.

Other TIE/D's benefit from stuff like Predator to keep some dice modding for each shot, and from what I've seen, it can be enough, with proper flying.

I understand that this doesn't work in your experience, but it does in others, including mine.

oh trust me, I tried with plenty of TL enabling from omega L and PTL x7 ryad; getting full mods (ish, only 1 focus) isn't always enough

that's just the world we live in when palp (or just dice) is involved

The problem with TIE/D is that the best builds still arent guaranteed.

Vessery is very, very close but not guaranteed. I still remember fondly when i was playing Vessery/Inqy/Omega Lead and had the target of my choice right there at range 2. Had him TL'd with Omega, had a focus, rolled for Ion.... blank blank focus. Rolled for TL.... Blank blank. Didn't even bother spending focus. Rolled attack..... triple blank. TL Reroll.... double blank focus.

Didn't even bother spending focus. Again.

But X/7? That evade is guaranteed. You're guaranteed to dodge a damage a turn.

TIE/D is a ship that relies on control and alpha, but can't really alpha. TIE/X7 works easiest because it's just simpler to take the shots you can and keep yourself safe with the actionless evade you just GOT FOR FREE that turn so you can 4k next turn and do it again, whereas TIE/D relies on not only your dice, but your opponents dice, and if your dice fail or theirs succeed, you have nothing to protect yourself and nothing to show for your efforts. If a TIE/D loses a dice trade, you're that much closer to losing the game. TIE/X7 doesnt entirely mind if it doesn't do damage that turn, as long as it dodges incoming damage, which is easier to do.

TIE/D can work, but anything can go wrong for it at any moment, and all of a sudden it's not working. The meta isn't really big on taking chances, which is why Palp Aces, Dengaroo, and trip jumps were so huge because there's so little chance you're taking in using them, so little commitment. TIE/D is a huge commitment, and i respect and love TIE/D builds for that reason, but it's not nor will it ever be a better choice than TIE/X7. It's why Norra, Biggs, and Poe are/were so used because it significantly reduces the chance in the equation. TIE/D doesn't do that, all it does is give you an additional attack.

*Sigh*, and I suppose me mentioning that a TIE/D list beat out a list consisting of a Palp Shuttle and two x7s in a previous post in this thread doesn't factor to this equation? That match was played by two of the best players I know, and what you label inferior won. In fact, I'd say most of the time I've seen x7s and /Ds go up against each other, the /Ds won.

i'll admit, x7s are my preferred title to fly, but not because it is obviously superior to the TIE/D. I do it because it's easier and I get to go fast. I'm not discounting the value of the x7. I'm trying to show people that there is value, albeit different, in the TIE/D, which exceeds the x7 in some cases.

One game is meaningless. I can just as easily point out that I've smashed an opponent's TIE/D list with my /x7 list. You need a lot more than a couple games to say whether one is better than the other (when played against each other).

One game is meaningless. I can just as easily point out that I've smashed an opponent's TIE/D list with my /x7 list. You need a lot more than a couple games to say whether one is better than the other (when played against each other).

I'll admit that in my zeal to defend the TIE/D, I have done the x7 a disservice. Like I've said before, I personally prefer flying x7s. The consistent dismissal of TIE/Ds despite the efforts of its supporters played upon my nerves in a way I should have better controlled.

I guess my view point boils down to both titles have strengths and weaknesses, and that it is up to each player to decide which they can use better.

via Imgflip Meme Generator

I too have a sad feeling that we are entering circa 2015 meta once again

For the record, the R4 Agromech nerf was elegant and precise.

This new Jumpmaster Deadeye nerf is..... disturbing

I prefer Tie/D over X7 so yall go ahead and fly X7. I want to be a special snowflake. Ion counters regen. If X7 is pseudo regen, it will get beat down by the pure untarnished regen that Rebels have.

Going out on a limb, I'd say the new TLT hotness will be 4x TLT Y-wing, two of them with Vectored Thrusters.

It doesn't matter if you fly X7 or Tie/D, they both die hard to almighty TLT.

Tlt isn't that scary. Unhinged gives them movement but not punch. Over clocked gives them punch but not movement. Either way x7 is a problem for them, and they will struggle to win a damage race.

More Palp Aces and Dengaroo...why weren't these fixed, both are undercosted. I understand triple torpedo boats was strong, but I bet Palp Aces has won more tourneys lately.

PalpAces existed before TorpScouts and was a competitive thing but not a dominant thing, like TIE swarms post Wave 4. It only got out of control when TorpScouts killed off anything based on solid statlines. Now the TorpScout combo has been broken those lists can compete again which is bad news for PalpAces.

As for Quad TLT, even in its heyday it wasn't a Worlds winning list: it's a new player stomper but it has no true viability at a high level. It's far more of a threat for turning the game into a snorefest than it is for winning.

Well, Palpaces also got a whole bunch of new options since then. wave 7 you could chose from Soontir, Jax, Vader. Now you can use the Inquisitor, Whisper, Omega Leader, Vessery, Riad, other Defenders, Wampa.

Especially Vessery and the Inquisitor are extremely good together, as the Inquisitor lols at TLTs which Vessery doesn't like too much and both ships can attack with TL/Focus, giving them reasonable damage to contest regen ships. As I expect Rebels to include stress elements Yorr seems like smart tech to keep the Inquisitor doing his thing.

Palpaces of old didn't have much of a bite since they either used Interceptors whos offense sucks or Vader who was rather vulnerable to TLTs. They have gained a lot in power through the last few waves.

The Torp Boats will still exist, but will just look a little different.

Umm... no, they won't.

Manaroo (27)

Adaptability (0)

Plasma Torpedoes (3)

K4 Security Droid (3)

Unhinged Astromech (1)

Guidance Chips (0)

Contracted Scout (25)

Crack Shot (1)

Proton Torpedoes (4)

Extra Munitions (2)

4-LOM (1)

Guidance Chips (0)

Contracted Scout (25)

Crack Shot (1)

Proton Torpedoes (4)

Extra Munitions (2)

Boba Fett (1)

Guidance Chips (0)

Total: 100

I'd love for that list to work, but good luck getting those TLs versus the dominating PS7+ lists.

Not a problem. Because Manaroo can hoon into close range, lock someone she doesn't have a shot on, and pass the shot at the start of the combat phase to whoever does.

Getting a target lock on a higher PS pilot isn't the problem. It's getting a lock on somone and still being in range 2-3 to torpedo them in the combat phase after they've moved.

It's a nice list. What you won't be able to to is peg three modified torpedoes at someone. But one guidance chip/crack shot/zuckuss proton torpedo is enough to make your average ace involuntarily soil themselves.