I wonder if MajorJuggler has the numbers on TIE/x7 and TIE/D. It's one of those situations where it's fairly easy to quantify.

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With Dengaroo still running around? Good luck with that.

Yeah, Manny will have a ball trying to dodge unhinged tlt thugs before dropping in round 3-4.

Have you tried the matchup? It's surprisingly easy to kite TLTs with a PtL Boost + BR ship that moves after them... and meanwhile Dengar just eats them alive at close range.

I wonder if MajorJuggler has the numbers on TIE/x7 and TIE/D. It's one of those situations where it's fairly easy to quantify.

It's actually not too easy to quantify, because the control element requires a lot of extra assumptions to be made.

Also people will burn tokens to avoid that one damage and ion. Making the primary more likely to go through.

More Palp Aces and Dengaroo...why weren't these fixed, both are undercosted. I understand triple torpedo boats was strong, but I bet Palp Aces has won more tourneys lately.

PalpAces existed before TorpScouts and was a competitive thing but not a dominant thing, like TIE swarms post Wave 4. It only got out of control when TorpScouts killed off anything based on solid statlines. Now the TorpScout combo has been broken those lists can compete again which is bad news for PalpAces.

As for Quad TLT, even in its heyday it wasn't a Worlds winning list: it's a new player stomper but it has no true viability at a high level. It's far more of a threat for turning the game into a snorefest than it is for winning.

While i dont think quad tlt is overpowered or anything, I do have to point out a counter to you saying itisnt

Biable at high level. Namely that its won Spanish nationals 2 years in a row

all you're getting out of the D is some control and a whole lot of fragility

Fickle, please stop talking about things you clearly don't understand. Because you really don't get /D, and you've made that abundantly clear.

I completely destroyed a Biggs+Norra list yesterday with a /D Ryad with Ion list. It wasn't even close. Once biggs dies Norra is garbage against Ion control. Completely shut her down and she never got to shoot again as I arch dodged until she died.

Corran is probably the only Rebel regen ship that isn't going to just get straight murdered by /D defenders. Any variant of them. Miranda giving you trouble? Park her on a rock. PA Poe being annoying? Ion him and make him stay put.

They only reason they haven't been doing better is because of stupid high agility and torp scouts. One of those things is now gone, and the other can be dealt with if you know how to fly and build your list.

and since the cannons only do 1 damage anyway, really an x7 with crackshot or juke can equal a D's output for far less while being far more durable

Please just stop. No, it's not the same. Not least of which when you take away their green dice and pull them into range one. Or just not take damage at all because they can no longer shoot you.

what kind of rigged dice or passive players are you using to be able to justify such false blanket statements?

the Tie/D is dead in my meta, and we're swimming in empire, because everyone's figured out that relying on dicey canons just aren't reliable and 6 health, 3 agility isn't terribly difficult to destroy unless you're really lucky

hoping to get really lucky != competitive material. you want to go for reliability

Cynically i recall that the phantom nerf was supposed to bring back the things that fat turrets were afraid of and instead only plunged us deeper into that nonsense. Not saying this will be the case but i'm still skeptical

all you're getting out of the D is some control and a whole lot of fragility

Fickle, please stop talking about things you clearly don't understand. Because you really don't get /D, and you've made that abundantly clear.

I completely destroyed a Biggs+Norra list yesterday with a /D Ryad with Ion list. It wasn't even close. Once biggs dies Norra is garbage against Ion control. Completely shut her down and she never got to shoot again as I arch dodged until she died.

Corran is probably the only Rebel regen ship that isn't going to just get straight murdered by /D defenders. Any variant of them. Miranda giving you trouble? Park her on a rock. PA Poe being annoying? Ion him and make him stay put.

They only reason they haven't been doing better is because of stupid high agility and torp scouts. One of those things is now gone, and the other can be dealt with if you know how to fly and build your list.

and since the cannons only do 1 damage anyway, really an x7 with crackshot or juke can equal a D's output for far less while being far more durable

Please just stop. No, it's not the same. Not least of which when you take away their green dice and pull them into range one. Or just not take damage at all because they can no longer shoot you.

what kind of rigged dice or passive players are you using to be able to justify such false blanket statements?

the Tie/D is dead in my meta, and we're swimming in empire, because everyone's figured out that relying on dicey canons just aren't reliable and 6 health, 3 agility isn't terribly difficult to destroy unless you're really lucky

hoping to get really lucky != competitive material. you want to go for reliability

and seriously, if someone is letting you somehow pull biggs out of range 1 with t-beams when range 1 is longer than two small ship bases, they're letting you win

Yeah sorry but Fickle is right, Empire is alive in my region and TIE/D isn't taken at all. I played against a TIE/D list with my Norra/Biggs/Braylen list and wiped the floor with it, 100-26. Vessery was dead turn 1 of shooting, because without the evade token, he's taking 4 dice from Norra, 3 from Biggs, and 3+Gunner+Stress from Braylen. Once Vessery was dead, it was literally just Quickdraw and Omega Leader, who cant do jack against me. They killed Biggs next turn, But Braylen locked Omega Leader down before she could TL Norra and was dead the next turn. Quickdraw was a sad state of affairs. I'm pretty sure that game singlehandedly prevented any further TIE/D attempts around here.

TIE/X7 is the Defender meta, and for good reason. That evade token is half of my rear arc firepower. Without it, I'm really, REALLY not afraid of Defenders, cause you sure as hell can't 4K behind me, cause i'll still shoot you, and all i need is the target lock because i get focus to crit out the back, and if you miss an ion follow-up ONCE, you're dead. This is assuming you drag Norra to end game before i alpha you off the board, which i absolutely can.

Even if you have 3 TIE/Ds, all my ships shoot before you. So i alpha one off the board(Easy to do, and if i don't i promise you it's double stressed, so it's not hitting jack next turn when i also get to shoot you out the back), Biggs soaks the two remaining ones, up to 3 if the dice are decent, which i've done many times. Next turn I start on the next one, probably not kill it but it's getting down to 2 hull minimum, probably 2 stress as well. Biggs dies that turn. I kill the second one, double stress the last one, one of my ships gets Ioned, probably Norra. That's fine. You've got no actions this turn either, and my dial is easier to maneuver in close quarters than yours. All i need is this turn and one more after that to kill that Defender, because you literally do not have the firepower to kill both my ships at this point.

all you're getting out of the D is some control and a whole lot of fragility

Fickle, please stop talking about things you clearly don't understand. Because you really don't get /D, and you've made that abundantly clear.

I completely destroyed a Biggs+Norra list yesterday with a /D Ryad with Ion list. It wasn't even close. Once biggs dies Norra is garbage against Ion control. Completely shut her down and she never got to shoot again as I arch dodged until she died.

Corran is probably the only Rebel regen ship that isn't going to just get straight murdered by /D defenders. Any variant of them. Miranda giving you trouble? Park her on a rock. PA Poe being annoying? Ion him and make him stay put.

They only reason they haven't been doing better is because of stupid high agility and torp scouts. One of those things is now gone, and the other can be dealt with if you know how to fly and build your list.

and since the cannons only do 1 damage anyway, really an x7 with crackshot or juke can equal a D's output for far less while being far more durable

Please just stop. No, it's not the same. Not least of which when you take away their green dice and pull them into range one. Or just not take damage at all because they can no longer shoot you.

what kind of rigged dice or passive players are you using to be able to justify such false blanket statements?

the Tie/D is dead in my meta, and we're swimming in empire, because everyone's figured out that relying on dicey canons just aren't reliable and 6 health, 3 agility isn't terribly difficult to destroy unless you're really lucky

hoping to get really lucky != competitive material. you want to go for reliability

and seriously, if someone is letting you somehow pull biggs out of range 1 with t-beams when range 1 is longer than two small ship bases, they're letting you win

Yeah sorry but Fickle is right, Empire is alive in my region and TIE/D isn't taken at all. I played against a TIE/D list with my Norra/Biggs/Braylen list and wiped the floor with it, 100-26. Vessery was dead turn 1 of shooting, because without the evade token, he's taking 4 dice from Norra, 3 from Biggs, and 3+Gunner+Stress from Braylen. Once Vessery was dead, it was literally just Quickdraw and Omega Leader, who cant do jack against me. They killed Biggs next turn, But Braylen locked Omega Leader down before she could TL Norra and was dead the next turn. Quickdraw was a sad state of affairs. I'm pretty sure that game singlehandedly prevented any further TIE/D attempts around here.

TIE/X7 is the Defender meta, and for good reason. That evade token is half of my rear arc firepower. Without it, I'm really, REALLY not afraid of Defenders, cause you sure as hell can't 4K behind me, cause i'll still shoot you, and all i need is the target lock because i get focus to crit out the back, and if you miss an ion follow-up ONCE, you're dead. This is assuming you drag Norra to end game before i alpha you off the board, which i absolutely can.

also the idea that the torp scouts were somehow gatekeeping Tie/Ds is laughable

it's got Biggs health with +1 agility and no r4-d6 (and more crit vulnerability due to lack of integrated), you don't need to be a torpscout to kill one

if anything, I'd say palp + anything would be gatekeeping the /Ds, as there's not a hint of a prayer of hitting anything through him and an evade token

It's one evade token, not a reinforce token... Sounds like an x7 would have been just as dead.

If an x7 can hit it,an IonD can as well.

The ionD is home at range three since it negates the range bonus. Maybe people are being overly aggressive? Try hanging back more. Also speed 1 and 2 hard maneuvers are your friend. You'll catch people used to x7 by suprise.

also the idea that the torp scouts were somehow gatekeeping Tie/Ds is laughable

it's got Biggs health with +1 agility and no r4-d6 (and more crit vulnerability due to lack of integrated), you don't need to be a torpscout to kill one

if anything, I'd say palp + anything would be gatekeeping the /Ds, as there's not a hint of a prayer of hitting anything through him and an evade token

It's one evade token, not a reinforce token... Sounds like an x7 would have been just as dead.

x7 is similar to regen in that it's a set amount of damage canceled per turn

every turn it triggers is essentially 1 extra shield

every turn it's allowed to live, it gets tougher and tougher to kill as it is guaranteed to cancel a far greater % of the dice it is taking

the first x7 goes down pretty easily to concentrated fire, but after a trade they only grow progressively more difficult (same way for regen, which is why biggs is so nice)

the Tie/D doesn't enjoy this benefit

also the idea that the torp scouts were somehow gatekeeping Tie/Ds is laughable

it's got Biggs health with +1 agility and no r4-d6 (and more crit vulnerability due to lack of integrated), you don't need to be a torpscout to kill one

if anything, I'd say palp + anything would be gatekeeping the /Ds, as there's not a hint of a prayer of hitting anything through him and an evade token

It's one evade token, not a reinforce token... Sounds like an x7 would have been just as dead.

If an x7 can hit it,an IonD can as well.

The ionD is home at range three since it negates the range bonus. Maybe people are being overly aggressive? Try hanging back more. Also speed 1 and 2 hard maneuvers are your friend. You'll catch people used to x7 by suprise.

When we're talking an ARCs rear arc, that evade token MATTERS. If Vessery hadn't taken the last hit from Braylen because he had evaded a damage from Norra earlier, he would have lived to the next turn.

also the idea that the torp scouts were somehow gatekeeping Tie/Ds is laughable

it's got Biggs health with +1 agility and no r4-d6 (and more crit vulnerability due to lack of integrated), you don't need to be a torpscout to kill one

if anything, I'd say palp + anything would be gatekeeping the /Ds, as there's not a hint of a prayer of hitting anything through him and an evade token

But it's been done. Like I keep saying, duel TIE/D's are dominating in my area. The reason it's not catching on everywhere is because it takes more skill to use properly then an x7 and you have to build around it, not just toss it in like you would an x7. The good TIE/D teams I've seen aren't using naked dice. They have upgrades and/or abilities to get through the enemy's defenses. I would have thought you of all people would understand that a good double tap has the advantage going up against green dice.

it doesn't, though, not to a reliable enough degree

even Vessery with crackshot gets one good "crack" at it and they're we're back to playing yahtzee with different color dice

that's been my experience anyway, but maybe I'm cursed relative to everyone else

also the idea that the torp scouts were somehow gatekeeping Tie/Ds is laughable

it's got Biggs health with +1 agility and no r4-d6 (and more crit vulnerability due to lack of integrated), you don't need to be a torpscout to kill one

if anything, I'd say palp + anything would be gatekeeping the /Ds, as there's not a hint of a prayer of hitting anything through him and an evade token

But it's been done. Like I keep saying, duel TIE/D's are dominating in my area. The reason it's not catching on everywhere is because it takes more skill to use properly then an x7 and you have to build around it, not just toss it in like you would an x7. The good TIE/D teams I've seen aren't using naked dice. They have upgrades and/or abilities to get through the enemy's defenses. I would have thought you of all people would understand that a good double tap has the advantage going up against green dice.

Ficklegreendice likes things that make green dice matter less.

A free evade token every turn makes the green dice matter a whole lot less.

Living significantly longer because you effectively have Imperial Regen means you more than make up for the lack of cannon shot because you're probably getting 1, 2, maybe 3 additional turns of combat over a TIE/D. And you cost less, too. Up to 5 points less than a TIE/D.

It's one evade token, not a reinforce token... Sounds like an x7 would have been just as dead.

x7 is similar to regen in that it's a set amount of damage canceled per turn

every turn it triggers is essentially 1 extra shield

every turn it's allowed to live, it gets tougher and tougher to kill as it is guaranteed to cancel a far greater % of the dice it is taking

the first x7 goes down pretty easily to concentrated fire, but after a trade they only grow progressively more difficult (same way for regen, which is why biggs is so nice)

the Tie/D doesn't enjoy this benefit

I was referring to a specific scenario someone posted. I didn't quote since I'm on my phone and it's a pain to clean up. Sorry.

A similar argument can be made for the ionD though. Every turn you ion a ship, you have removed an entire ship from the next turn. You can actually split fire with the ionD. Keep ionizing a low agility ship, while teaming up with other ships to attack another.

It's one evade token, not a reinforce token... Sounds like an x7 would have been just as dead.

x7 is similar to regen in that it's a set amount of damage canceled per turn

every turn it triggers is essentially 1 extra shield

every turn it's allowed to live, it gets tougher and tougher to kill as it is guaranteed to cancel a far greater % of the dice it is taking

the first x7 goes down pretty easily to concentrated fire, but after a trade they only grow progressively more difficult (same way for regen, which is why biggs is so nice)

the Tie/D doesn't enjoy this benefit

I was referring to a specific scenario someone posted. I didn't quote since I'm on my phone and it's a pain to clean up. Sorry.

A similar argument can be made for the ionD though. Every turn you ion a ship, you have removed an entire ship from the next turn. You can actually split fire with the ionD. Keep ionizing a low agility ship, while teaming up with other ships to attack another.

oh for sure, ionization (and stress and t-beams) is powerful and can certainly prevent damage by controlling the opponent

the problem is that that specific ionization is tied to dice

dice are fickle things at the best of times

which may seem silly in a dice driven game, if we forget that all the top tier competitive lists since the tie swarm passed on were built on dice-independent guarantees ala c3po and later r2-d2/r5-p9 + r3-a2

and thrusters + focus + evade when high ps arc-dodging (technically the best defense; not getting shot) doesn't pull through

andpalp; can't forget palp

so far, the only exceptions have been torp scouts and dengaroo and I don't think Tie/Ds pull the same modified craziness of torp scouts (75% chance of 3+ hits) or dengaroo's jousting efficiency

2 months ago, I too was skeptical of the long term effectiveness of TIE/D's vs. x7's. But I started trying them in various builds at various venues.

I have determined that a TIE/D list is much more skill dependent than an x7 list. The x7 is numerically superior to the TIE/D, the only way for the TIE/D to outperform the x7 is to maximize the control from the cannon shots. This means that the approach must be managed carefully for TIE/D's to shine whereas x7's can afford to just rush right in.

Furthermore, there are only 2 or 3 really worthwhile TIE/D builds (small variations ignored) that are worthwhile. I have settled on the one I like and have achieved a 90% win rate at tournaments with it so far having racked up 3 1st place finishes and 2 second place finishes at OP kit events in the last 2 months (out of 5 attended). I'm still testing the limits of the squad, so I'm not sure if it's what I'm taking to regionals yet, but my investigation so far clearly indicates that to dismiss TIE/D's without taking a second look is a mistake.

It's not really surprising that TIE/D's would be utterly neglected in a given area even if they can be good. Like I said, there seems to be a very narrow selection of really good lists for them. And on top of that, you can't just pick up one of those good lists and go. You have to play it the right way or it won't work.

Yeah I agree. I run Palpy when ever I can to help out.

I actually favor generics a bit so the higher PS ships can eat up tokens before I hit them with the ion.

For sure there are mathematically better ships in some cases. Sometimes though it just comes down to what works for the person running a list. When I've gone against friends X7s I've never really had an issue. Once I tag them with an ion their evade goes away.

But I flew Ds before vets. It's hard to separate player experience levels and ship familiarity when relaying personal experiences.

what kind of rigged dice or passive players are you using to be able to justify such false blanket statements?

I literally just went 3-0 in an escalation tournament with Ryad as my centerpiece. Predator and a focus is almost always enough.

I also went 4-2 at Vancouver regionals with VI Rexlar with TB being supported by a officer shuttle. Beating 3x /x7 and every other palp and Imperial ace list I came up against.

I know what I'm talking about. Yes you have to support it, but not nearly as much as some people think, and when you do it destroys things and strips tokens. It makes a fantastic centerpiece to an Imperial squad or +1 to a decimator.

it's got Biggs health with +1 agility and r4-d6, you don't need to be a torpscout to kill one

So, one of the best statlines for a small ship in the game. Got it. Yes, I get it things die when you shoot them. Shocking. /D gives you some very valueable tools to stop that in the first place.

Vessery was dead turn 1 of shooting, because without the evade token, he's taking 4 dice from Norra, 3 from Biggs, and 3+Gunner+Stress from Braylen.

So your example of a well flown Defender is a moron who jousted right at your list which is all about forward firepower. Got it.

This is assuming you drag Norra to end game before i alpha you off the board

You realize that when you PtL, and then I ion you, you don't get actions, right? That you are then literally dead in the water without a prayer of getting out unless I miss a three dice attack with focus and pred against one agility?

The think the point you guys are missing, and which is honestly hard to explain in text, is that good /D pilots don't get shot in the first place. You use your control and prevent that from happening. Or you take something even scarier and dangle it in front of your opponent.

"good /D pilots don't get shot in the first place" is utterly meaningless on the forums, because the counter arguement is an equally vacuous "good players will shoot /Ds"

that's a matter for table-top only

it's the same pointless drivel as "a good soontir never gets shot", which is a load of crap because soontir doesn't win every game ever

hell, " a good X never gets shot" is actual a viable counter argument considering Ds need to shoot to do any controlling (and if you're a "good ARC player", you will be minimizing shots by exploiting the aux arc ie the whole reason to take the ship in the first place)

and then we've entered to toilet-bowl spiral of pointless circle jerk

X/7s don't particularly like fighting juke, they are easier to predict (Ryad excluded). Wes,Carnor and Palob mess with them. They don't like homing missiles, autoblaster turrets or bombs. They can have some troubles with p.s. Strong yes - but usually in that 35 point region where we expect strong ships.

also the idea that the torp scouts were somehow gatekeeping Tie/Ds is laughable

it's got Biggs health with +1 agility and no r4-d6 (and more crit vulnerability due to lack of integrated), you don't need to be a torpscout to kill one

if anything, I'd say palp + anything would be gatekeeping the /Ds, as there's not a hint of a prayer of hitting anything through him and an evade token

But it's been done. Like I keep saying, duel TIE/D's are dominating in my area. The reason it's not catching on everywhere is because it takes more skill to use properly then an x7 and you have to build around it, not just toss it in like you would an x7. The good TIE/D teams I've seen aren't using naked dice. They have upgrades and/or abilities to get through the enemy's defenses. I would have thought you of all people would understand that a good double tap has the advantage going up against green dice.

it doesn't, though, not to a reliable enough degree

even Vessery with crackshot gets one good "crack" at it and they're we're back to playing yahtzee with different color dice

that's been my experience anyway, but maybe I'm cursed relative to everyone else

Other TIE/D's benefit from stuff like Predator to keep some dice modding for each shot, and from what I've seen, it can be enough, with proper flying.

I understand that this doesn't work in your experience, but it does in others, including mine.