A lot of these complaints seem to be centered on common-sense or already addressed issues (BCC) that some players just did not like the answer to.

We have two conflicting, opposite answers to BCC. Even if they weren't conflicting, "the designer told me so at the grocery store yesterday" hardly counts as "addressed".

Le sigh no we already have a word that would fall under your desired definition. Resolve would be something to the affect of "before this is complete".

Well FFG split that definition into two. "Before" it starts and "while" it is happening.... So I'm not sure what resolve would add to the defined word list that isn't covered by one of those two.

::is in the corner, curled in a ball, crying::

I challenge all players to actually look in the RRG.

Look for 2 things in particular:

- the word "resolve"

- the timing definition of "before"

Resolve is used a lot. In the context of the rules it means "to do".

For example:

You RESOLVE attack effects. Which can be a whole lot of different activities.

Now, BEFORE is right before something. So for something to be BEFORE resolving attack effects...I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions.

Then proceed to ponder this:

Ship movement is 2 parts...Determine Course and Move Ship.

Determine course contains a lot of activities, mostly having to do with said man tool.

So BEFORE resolving the Determine Course would be:

A) BEFORE resolving the Determine Course step, like it says on the card

B) WHILE/DURING the Determine Course step, contrary to what it says on the card.

I'm with A on this.

Well put GK. I don't even understand why you would want the other way it leads to madness.

Well put GK. I don't even understand why you would want the other way it leads to madness.

I think I had a Vassal game with ginkapo right after the card was spoiled - and we weren't sure yet, so we did the while/during thing...it was very, very odd.

Yeah wonder bread and I played it that way a couple times two...... No bueno

I challenge all players to actually look in the RRG.

Look for 2 things in particular:

- the word "resolve"

- the timing definition of "before"

Resolve is used a lot. In the context of the rules it means "to do".

For example:

You RESOLVE attack effects. Which can be a whole lot of different activities.

Now, BEFORE is right before something. So for something to be BEFORE resolving attack effects...I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions.

Then proceed to ponder this:

Ship movement is 2 parts...Determine Course and Move Ship.

Determine course contains a lot of activities, mostly having to do with said man tool.

So BEFORE resolving the Determine Course would be:

A) BEFORE resolving the Determine Course step, like it says on the card

B) WHILE/DURING the Determine Course step, contrary to what it says on the card.

I'm with A on this.

You better framed what I was trying to say in regards to the timing of when G8 happens.

Okay, so splain this to me:

First Player: Enters determine course step at speed 3 currently with a token on deck. Player picks up MAN tool (thanks GK.....) and decides while looking at the board that they will move forward, so they place the tool down, pre-notch, and say "Im going to spend my token and go to speed 4...", removes token, changes speed dial and attempts to notch.

Second player: "I am going to G8 that move...".

Does Player one get to say "Okay, then I decide I am not going to token and stay at 3, and therefore drop to speed two...", then re-decides there course by using the clicks for a speed 2 move instead???

I think the thing that throws me is a card giving a player the chance to re-determine their course based on a speed change. The only thing I can think of why it wouldn't work like this is because you may end up overlapping the MAN tool (god, this is getting dirtier as I type...) which is an illegal movement. (In most states at least....)

I come from a Magic:tg background (I know, I got help and was able to get clean), so I guess my mind wants it to be an "interrupt"

In that situation the g8 player would need to decide before the tool is placed. It wild behooove player to ask.

GK Determines our course with his man tool.

I didn't want to resurrect the argument, my intention was to clarify what the issue was. For me it's pretty clear that this is one of the things that should've been clarified in the FAQ as the developers intent is not really clear (at least for me, given the way the condition was written) and the appeal to RAW alone can produce unexpected results (see Jamming Fields and G8 vs Engine Tech)

I am truly baffled how there is any confusion on g8s at any point. ET or otherwise.....

Okay, so splain this to me:

First Player: Enters determine course step at speed 3 currently with a token on deck. Player picks up MAN tool (thanks GK.....) and decides while looking at the board that they will move forward, so they place the tool down, pre-notch, and say "Im going to spend my token and go to speed 4...", removes token, changes speed dial and attempts to notch.

Second player: "I am going to G8 that move...".

Does Player one get to say "Okay, then I decide I am not going to token and stay at 3, and therefore drop to speed two...", then re-decides there course by using the clicks for a speed 2 move instead???

I think the thing that throws me is a card giving a player the chance to re-determine their course based on a speed change. The only thing I can think of why it wouldn't work like this is because you may end up overlapping the MAN tool (god, this is getting dirtier as I type...) which is an illegal movement. (In most states at least....)

I come from a Magic:tg background (I know, I got help and was able to get clean), so I guess my mind wants it to be an "interrupt"

Okay, so I am re-reading the determine course step again, and I think I know why it's confusing. I have played so many tournaments where folks will grab the MAN tool (their own, not mine..that would be...rude)...and lay it on the table checking courses until they have one they like, then say "i'm going to use a token to change my speed". Since laying the tool on the table is the first step in the "move ship" step, I'm guessing that this is illegal since they are past the determine course step at this point. Or is this just a gray area?

Hell, I've played folks that will grab a 3 segment MAN tool, then decide that 2 segments is better, grab a different tool, lay it down and click around until it's right, then declare "yeah, I like this better so Ill drop to two with a token." Is this just a casual habit carrying over to a formal tournament?

Hell, I've played folks that will grab a 3 segment MAN tool, then decide that 2 segments is better, grab a different tool, lay it down and click around until it's right, then declare "yeah, I like this better so Ill drop to two with a token." Is this just a casual habit carrying over to a formal tournament?

This is allowed by the rules

"The maneuver tool can be placed on the play area and manipulated freely during the “Determine Course” step"

"Navigate: Resolve during the “Determine Course” step of movement."

I see the issues now. And this brings up a valid question about whether you can alter the course after your opponent plays g8. In reality you need to declare g8 during the "determine course" phase, even though it takes effect at the very end of that step. But since it takes effect as the last effect during the phase, it is too late to adjust the tool.

The issue is I don't see a practical way to play the card with this timing that keeps the player who determining course blind to g8 being used.

That said, I don't see any reason to allow the player to take back a spent command token after being hit with g8.

So, the REAL first step indicating move ship is notching. They really should have put that bullet inside of the determine course step then.

I see the issues now. And this brings up a valid question about whether you can alter the course after your opponent plays g8. In reality you need to declare g8 during the "determine course" phase, even though it takes effect at the very end of that step. But since it takes effect as the last effect during the phase, it is too late to adjust the tool.

The issue is I don't see a practical way to play the card with this timing that keeps the player who determining course blind to g8 being used.

That said, I don't see any reason to allow the player to take back a spent command token after being hit with g8.

So, this works if you are first player but acts differently if you are second.

Second Player: Enters determine course step at speed 3 currently with a token on deck. Player picks up MAN tool (thanks GK.....) and decides while looking at the board that they will move forward, so they place the tool down, pre-notch, and say "Im going to spend my token and go to speed 4...", removes token, changes speed dial and attempts to notch.

First player: "I am going to G8 that move...".

Scenerio #2 - First Player decides his action happens first, so Second player loses a token AND has to change to speed 2.

Scenario #1 - First player decides he can go back to his use token part of the step and change his mind before G8 so he doesn't lose the token.

Am I missing something?

G8 occurs after the Nav token because it is "before resolving". Aka immediately before, aka after everything else in the determine course step is done. The Nav token is "during", therefore always before g8.

G8 occurs after the Nav token because it is "before resolving". Aka immediately before, aka after everything else in the determine course step is done. The Nav token is "during", therefore always before g8.

The way you are describing would mean you are resolving G8 "during" the Determine Course step, immediately before the end. The argument that GK made was you use G8 before you enter the Determine Course step, and by doing this you never run into this problem. I don't know which is correct, but I play it like GK.

After reading the FAQ it looks like you use G8s before the Determine Course step begins.

After reading the FAQ it looks like you use G8s before the Determine Course step begins.

I think that as well, but that point is made in regards to Engine Techs. After all, there was a lot of debate whether G8 can hit an Engine Tech move. Using that argument, it would make sense G8 is used before the Determine Course step because I don't understand why it would have 2 different timings on different maneuvers.

I..... I...... I....... I don't even know what to say.

Guys G8 IS BEFORE THE DETERMINE COURSE STEP. It's not during its not after a token. It is before.

If the controlling player has begun plotting their course in any way or have spent a token of dial to effect their course/speed it is to late to use G8. It is that simple.

Please just view Green Knights breakdown.

I..... I...... I....... I don't even know what to say.

Guys G8 IS BEFORE RESOLVING THE DETERMINE COURSE STEP. It's not during its not after a token. It is before.

FTFY