If they don't agree with you, call a judge.

If they don't agree with you, call a judge.

And then the judge is going to look at the tourney guidelines and say both players have to agree, right?

If they don't agree with you, call a judge.

And then the judge is going to look at the tourney guidelines and say both players have to agree, right?

Ask them to wait before notching their maneuver tool so you can think.

If a player is intentionally and repeatedly rushing through their movement in order deny you the opportunity to decide whether you want to use G8, that's unsportsmanlike.

If they don't agree with you, call a judge.

And then the judge is going to look at the tourney guidelines and say both players have to agree, right?

Ask them to wait before notching their maneuver tool so you can think.

If a player is intentionally and repeatedly rushing through their movement in order deny you the opportunity to decide whether you want to use G8, that's unsportsmanlike.

So it's the notching of the tool is the determine course step? I agree with that, but that isn't what others have said.

If they don't agree with you, call a judge.

And then the judge is going to look at the tourney guidelines and say both players have to agree, right?

No, you say they did not allow you to use G8 because they rushed into the next step. If they declare they are entering the next step and you don't do anything then that sucks, you missed the opportunity.

While the judge should know the rules, they also have common sense for disputes like this. No where does it say the players have to agree with a judges ruling, they just have to accept it. Dras likely knows more about this than anyone, because he is a marshal.

If they don't agree with you, call a judge.

And then the judge is going to look at the tourney guidelines and say both players have to agree, right?

Ask them to wait before notching their maneuver tool so you can think.

If a player is intentionally and repeatedly rushing through their movement in order deny you the opportunity to decide whether you want to use G8, that's unsportsmanlike.

So it's the notching of the tool is the determine course step? I agree with that, but that isn't what others have said.

Notching of the tool is the movement of the ship.

1. Determine Course: Straighten the maneuver tool, then click the joints of the maneuver tool a number of times in either direction up to the corresponding yaw values indicated on the ship’s speed chart for the current speed. The ship can resolve a M command to adjust speed and/or yaw.

2. Move Ship: Place the maneuver tool on the play area and insert the guides of the first segment into the notches on one side of the front of the ship’s base. Then slide the ship away from the guides on the first segment and place the ship by sliding its notches over the guides on the joint that corresponds to the ship’s speed.

So determining course is manipulating the tool. G8 has to be done before the opponent even straightens the tool (before determine course step), so essentially the only window is when your opponent grabs the tool but before he starts manipulating it?

It sounds like you have to rely on an opponent being nice to you or that window closes incredibly fast.

There are so many effects like this that can get overlooked honestly, such as Han Solo. I use APT a lot, and while most people know how it works, I still have to remind people that the face-up happens before they get to redirect. Basically if you take G-8s, practice with them so you remember you have them. I can't tell you how many times I forget to use an effect when running a list unfamiliar to me. Just practice having G-8, and remind your opponent that you have them. As long as they can still react to you doing it, i.e. change their speed and yaw, I really don't see a big deal here. Same as everything else, remember to use your stuff and communicate clearly with your opponent.

So determining course is manipulating the tool. G8 has to be done before the opponent even straightens the tool (before determine course step), so essentially the only window is when your opponent grabs the tool but before he starts manipulating it?

It sounds like you have to rely on an opponent being nice to you or that window closes incredibly fast.

Not before the determine course step. Before the ship resolves the determine course step. So that means before they finish with the step - not before they start it.

There are so many effects like this that can get overlooked honestly, such as Han Solo. I use APT a lot, and while most people know how it works, I still have to remind people that the face-up happens before they get to redirect. Basically if you take G-8s, practice with them so you remember you have them. I can't tell you how many times I forget to use an effect when running a list unfamiliar to me. Just practice having G-8, and remind your opponent that you have them. As long as they can still react to you doing it, i.e. change their speed and yaw, I really don't see a big deal here. Same as everything else, remember to use your stuff and communicate clearly with your opponent.

so true. First time I incorporated Leading shots in my build I completely forgot to use it. So many red blanks going to waste...

So determining course is manipulating the tool. G8 has to be done before the opponent even straightens the tool (before determine course step), so essentially the only window is when your opponent grabs the tool but before he starts manipulating it?

It sounds like you have to rely on an opponent being nice to you or that window closes incredibly fast.

Not before the determine course step. Before the ship resolves the determine course step. So that means before they finish with the step - not before they start it.

This is the question that i ask since the card came out.

When do you have to do it. before ... resolve is a really vague description.

Especially because the Determine Cource Step is a step, and not a simple Effect that you just resolve.

And if it is: "before you finish the determine course step" than you will have some really funny moments in a tournament to explain it. To explain why you have sometimes to use the G-8 before the navigate token and sometimes after.

So determining course is manipulating the tool. G8 has to be done before the opponent even straightens the tool (before determine course step), so essentially the only window is when your opponent grabs the tool but before he starts manipulating it?

It sounds like you have to rely on an opponent being nice to you or that window closes incredibly fast.

Not before the determine course step. Before the ship resolves the determine course step. So that means before they finish with the step - not before they start it.

This is the question that i ask since the card came out.

When do you have to do it. before ... resolve is a really vague description.

Especially because the Determine Cource Step is a step, and not a simple Effect that you just resolve.

And if it is: "before you finish the determine course step" than you will have some really funny moments in a tournament to explain it. To explain why you have sometimes to use the G-8 before the navigate token and sometimes after.

I've been going back and forth on this as well. Before is defined

"A “before” effect occurs immediately before the specified event and cannot occur again for that instance of the event."

Perhaps the trigger is the resolution of the Determine Course step, but that could result in a scenario where your ship overlaps the tool, which means you start over...And one would assume you start over with your new temporary speed. Perhaps this is the way FFG intended it to be, but no one can say.

And the way they ruled with the interation on Engine Techs, which I already described earlier, we can assume G8 triggers before you enter the Determine Course step, which technically still qualifies as being before the step resolves.

I think the majority of the community will either agree it triggers before you enter the Determine Course step, or they play it so it triggers before you enter the Determine Coruse step regardless of how they think the RRG says it should be played. I fall into the latter because it makes the game more fair (my opponent doesn't have to worry about sneaky tricks) and it speeds up the game (we don't play chicken over Nav token vs G8).

Regardless of how you feel, this horse has been dead for quite some time now.

I fall into the latter because it makes the game more fair (my opponent doesn't have to worry about sneaky tricks) and it speeds up the game (we don't play chicken over Nav token vs G8).

The rules are written this way for these purposes.

So that there can be no sneaky trick. Fast play is against the spirit and the rules anyway, so if you face the kind of low player who'll rush into a maneuver in a competitive setting, you can always complain about it. Or, you know, realise you missed an opportunity, and never forget again in the next turns, or ever.

You wrote yourself that playing it this way speeds up the game. It avoids the chicken game, it avoids a late declaration that will have an all-measuring player take another 5 minutes to pinpoint his maneuver.

It is written in even plainer English on a FAQ entry relating to the card, to the very same effect, on a maneuver that is resolved in the exact same way a normal maneuver would be resolved.

Why bother to argue that you can read the opposite on the card.

There is one simple answer : before means before, and resolve most certainly doesn't mean what you think it means.

Dead horse beating time!

You know what would solve all of these timing debates? A operations order diagram, like the one they released for X-Wing! I'm still surprised they haven't released one for Armada.

Who needs a diagram, it's a simple sequence. 4 defined timings :

[ before you resolve the determine course step ][ when/while you resolve the determine course step ][ after you resolve the determine course step ].

Of course, when is more relevant to a simple effect, while is more relevant to a step, but those technically happen at the same time in any "resolve" sequence.

/drops the mic

I haven't seen so much non-planar, non-intersecting conversation since I had a poor student try to explain Hegel's ethics with an analytic philosopher's viewpoint!

To quote Jacques Derida: il n'y a pas de hors-texte

Or in other words, we must necessarily make an " unending analysis that can make explicit the decisions and arbitrary violence intrinsic to all texts"

Or in other words, we have to wait until yet another FAQ arrives.

G8s is the same as its always been. The correct timing is

Dont be a prat

And it wont matter

Wow can't please anyone can they

I think the FAQ did a wonderful job of answering the outstanding questions.

A lot of these complaints seem to be centered on common-sense or already addressed issues (BCC) that some players just did not like the answer to.

That said GG FFG.

I don't understand this whole G8 issue. If your opponent has it, don't fret over it. Just determine your course as usual and once the tool locked in, you are all set. If he interrupts you before you lock the tool to the ship, set a new course.

So determining course is manipulating the tool. G8 has to be done before the opponent even straightens the tool (before determine course step), so essentially the only window is when your opponent grabs the tool but before he starts manipulating it?

It sounds like you have to rely on an opponent being nice to you or that window closes incredibly fast.

Not before the determine course step. Before the ship resolves the determine course step. So that means before they finish with the step - not before they start it.

The key defined word in this text is "before".

Also for those of you still baffled on this apt thing...... APT damage is not part of the normal damage cards therefore xx9 does not affect it at all.

In english, multiple words can mean the same thing.

So long as "resolves" is there we have different total wording than a normal "while" card.

I would love to see them errata "resolves" into the RRG

I don't understand this whole G8 issue. If your opponent has it, don't fret over it. Just determine your course as usual and once the tool locked in, you are all set. If he interrupts you before you lock the tool to the ship, set a new course.

The issue is: can G8 be triggered after an opponent decided to use nav command/token and changed his speed? I.e. at the beginning of Determine Course Step: "I'm not going to G8, however if you will use Navigate, I may change this decision".

Why when we already have a defined word for that

Why when we already have a defined word for that

"Resolves" ?

In the Rulebook?

We don't.

In English , we do. But, y'know... Not even Dictionaries can agree on simple things...

I don't understand this whole G8 issue. If your opponent has it, don't fret over it. Just determine your course as usual and once the tool locked in, you are all set. If he interrupts you before you lock the tool to the ship, set a new course.

The issue is: can G8 be triggered after an opponent decided to use nav command/token and changed his speed? I.e. at the beginning of Determine Course Step: "I'm not going to G8, however if you will use Navigate, I may change this decision".

That's easy. When two things have the same timing, in this case using G8 or spending a token, the first player must declare what they are doing first.

I don't understand this whole G8 issue. If your opponent has it, don't fret over it. Just determine your course as usual and once the tool locked in, you are all set. If he interrupts you before you lock the tool to the ship, set a new course.

The issue is: can G8 be triggered after an opponent decided to use nav command/token and changed his speed? I.e. at the beginning of Determine Course Step: "I'm not going to G8, however if you will use Navigate, I may change this decision".

That's easy. When two things have the same timing, in this case using G8 or spending a token, the first player must declare what they are doing first.

Agreed.

But too many people were arguing that : "During" and "before resolving" are different timing steps that effectively happen at the same time , so they were not conflicting timing steps, so the Timing Rule of 1st Player 1st didn't Apply...

It was one of the reasons I gave up arguing on that subject.