When I say 'rule lawyer', I don't mean a person who points out how a tricky card, interaction, or phrase is correctly done. Conciseness and clarity are very good things, especially in a game with this much variety and so many interactions. No, I mean the person who tries to use sometimes ambiguous or sloppy wording to their advantage (and lets all face it, FFG is really good at ambiguous and sloppy wording).

This weekend, I was yelled at when I asked a guy if he was really going to argue what the meaning of 'turn' and 'round' was, especially when considering that the card in question (Thane's pilot ability) didn't even mention 'round' or 'turn'. I was genuinely curious if he was serious, because I have never heard someone do that before. I'm not even sure what his argument was, but he ended up yelling that I should, "enjoy being a *****", as he huffed and sort of slammed his tokens and pieces around. Needless to say, its stuff like that guy's attitude that can really ruin a match (or game, depending on how someone wants to define it...). It makes matter a little worse since this guy tries to be be more present and representative of our local X-Wing community, but he routinely talks people down and has on occasion even almost forced new players out of the game (They just sort of avoid him after a little while).

This isn't meant to be an attack on this one guy, but it did bring to mind the numerous times a match I have played in has been more or less ruined by 'rule lawyering', and how being this pedantic when the the intend or use of a card clear. Early on in the game, I had a guy try to argue that 'you' meant the player, not the ship (I cannot remember if this clarified in the earliest version of the rules). Someone tried to argue that that both actions on Gonk couldn't be used per turn, even though they are obviously two separate actions. I saw a guy argue that Extra Munitions could technically be used twice - giving a torpedo 4 shots - because Extra Munitions was used in the torpedo slot and this got an extra munitions token. I had a guy try to argue that a 'round' was one entire game during a tournament. There are plenty more, but you get the point.

We all like being competitive, but sometimes this just gets out of control. Does anyone else experience this? Or am I just being a baby after being yelled at and called a **** for asking if a guy was seriously arguing something that....strange?

Obvious answer: if they're like that guy, then yes, they ruin the game for everyone.

If they're polite when lawyering, then it may be annoying, but whatever--some people are just like that. Just have a link to the FAQ in your phone and you won't have to worry about it.

Obvious answer: if they're like that guy, then yes, they ruin the game for everyone.

If they're polite when lawyering, then it may be annoying, but whatever--some people are just like that. Just have a link to the FAQ in your phone and you won't have to worry about it.

But referring to the FAQ on your phone is referring to outside material, and is not allowed in a competitive environment (something else i have heard argued).

Yeah, politeness goes a long way.

i wouldnt call those rule lawyers, i'd call them "that guy"

People that deliberately read a rule the way they want to read it and hope nobody with half a brain catches them. Coming from 40k, thats a VERY VERY COMMON THING.

Rule lawyers know the rules inside and out and will point out even the slightest step out of the rules, even if its inconsequential (drawing cards on a dead ship) but still a rule. Even more annoying when they butt into a game uninvited to correct a mistake. I only do that if im standing there and they ask an ambiguous question, even if it isnt directed at me, since im usually one of the guys people ask for rules anyway.

Ive been called a rule shark by a couple people and they immediately got shamed by the rest of the group for it lol. I point out rules even if they screw me over, because i want a fair game. If youre fine with me pointing out rules that hurt me but get all huffy when i say you cant use predator multiple times in the same roll, i dont want anything to do with you because you are "that guy"

That's a specific type of rules lawyers you're talking about... I would rather wonder where is the line between "rule lawyer'ing" and simple cheating.

The rules should be adhered to, but the "rules lawyer" you are describing sounds like either he is very stupid, or a cheater. His huffiness would have ended the game for me immediately. Ain't nobody got time for that!

i wouldnt call those rule lawyers, i'd call them "that guy"

Yeah that's the truth. Rules Lawyers are really just a subset of a WAAC type person, they just try to use the rules to do so. The real point of a rules lawyer isn't to play by the rules correctly, it's to twist the rules into their favor to give them an advantage.

They'll interpret the rules one way if it suits them, but will reverse their position if it hurts them.

Obvious answer: if they're like that guy, then yes, they ruin the game for everyone.

If they're polite when lawyering, then it may be annoying, but whatever--some people are just like that. Just have a link to the FAQ in your phone and you won't have to worry about it.

But referring to the FAQ on your phone is referring to outside material, and is not allowed in a competitive environment (something else i have heard argued).

Yeah, politeness goes a long way.

I'm pretty sure the "outside material" rule said something about the official FAQ and rule book being fine to reference.

Obvious answer: if they're like that guy, then yes, they ruin the game for everyone.

If they're polite when lawyering, then it may be annoying, but whatever--some people are just like that. Just have a link to the FAQ in your phone and you won't have to worry about it.

But referring to the FAQ on your phone is referring to outside material, and is not allowed in a competitive environment (something else i have heard argued).

Yeah, politeness goes a long way.

There's a number of points that need to be made regarding your posts, but I don't have time to address them.

However, to this point specifically (because it's easily looked at) is this current rule in the Tournament Regulations posted on the X-Wing section of the Product page (https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/x-wing/) with the rest of the online documentation:

"Taking Notes and Outside Material

Players cannot take notes or reference outside material or information during a tournament round.

However, players may reference official rule documents or game components that do not contain

hidden information at any time or ask a judge for clarification from official rule documents. Official

rule documents include all rules documents available on the X-Wing page of our website, those

found in an X-Wing product, or any portion thereof."

So yes, referencing the FAQ during a tournament is entirely legal.

Although the above said; I've heard many arguments about what "outside material" constitutes...

Obvious answer: if they're like that guy, then yes, they ruin the game for everyone.

If they're polite when lawyering, then it may be annoying, but whatever--some people are just like that. Just have a link to the FAQ in your phone and you won't have to worry about it.

But referring to the FAQ on your phone is referring to outside material, and is not allowed in a competitive environment (something else i have heard argued).

Yeah, politeness goes a long way.

The FAQ is not outside material. It's the first thing that should be referenced! How else can you clarify questions during a tournament?

Outside material are notes that do not come directly from FFG sources.

The game is rigged. You're all against this guy.

Obvious answer: if they're like that guy, then yes, they ruin the game for everyone.

If they're polite when lawyering, then it may be annoying, but whatever--some people are just like that. Just have a link to the FAQ in your phone and you won't have to worry about it.

But referring to the FAQ on your phone is referring to outside material, and is not allowed in a competitive environment (something else i have heard argued).

Yeah, politeness goes a long way.

There's a number of points that need to be made regarding your posts, but I don't have time to address them.

However, to this point specifically (because it's easily looked at) is this current rule in the Tournament Regulations posted on the X-Wing section of the Product page (https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/x-wing/) with the rest of the online documentation: "Taking Notes and Outside Material

Players cannot take notes or reference outside material or information during a tournament round.

However, players may reference official rule documents or game components that do not contain

hidden information at any time or ask a judge for clarification from official rule documents. Official

rule documents include all rules documents available on the X-Wing page of our website, those

found in an X-Wing product, or any portion thereof."

So yes, referencing the FAQ during a tournament is entirely legal.

Can you imagine how stupid it would be to not be able to use the rule clarifications for the game in the game.

How the hell does one convince themselves that the FAQ is "illegal"

It's all about the attitude. I can appreciate and respect someone like how Vineheart described himself. He's just trying to make sure everything is fair and done right. The guy the OP started off with would be an anoyance that I would gladly leave behind when we were done with our game.

If you are polite and not turning a blind eye to your own mistakes, you've got no beef from me.

The FAQ is not outside material.

If I know the FAQ is going to harm or kill my argument, and I'm the type of guy who will twist the rules to suit me, then I'd make that same argument. I mean that's really just an extension of what we're talking about, someone willing to twist the rules to suit their purpose.

I mean you could even argue that the Tournament Regulations are themselves an outside source so what they say about allowing the FAQ to be used isn't valid... It's a fairly circular argument and one I hope no TO would ever accept, but it's the kind of argument someone like that would try to make.

One thing to keep in mind, is someone like that, which is frankly no different than any other cheater really... Is that they'll do anything to get away with it. Because it seems they believe if they can get away with it then they deserve it. Part of that includes someone's natural desire to avoid a scene and so they'll threaten to make one as a gambit to get away with whatever it is they're trying to do.

Yeah, I guess 'rule lawyer' wasn't the right term, I was just kind of at a loss on what to say.

It doesn't help that people like that tend to be the loudest abut their opinions and thoughts.

And as far as referring to the FAQ on a phone goes, the guys argued that because it was on the phone, and not a print out or directly from the TO, it was not allowed...yeah.

The game is rigged. You're all against this guy.

Well, I did call my list 'Locker Room Talk", because it was a scum list built entirely around offense (it was scummy and offensive...)

F this is a tournament, call the TO over. It's never the wrong call and can make the game more enjoyable.

If this all happens in a casual game, I'd either end the game quickly or just concede. Casual games are about fun.

Its quite often im wrong, either because its something im just not used to seeing (some of the more oddball scum pilots for instance), something new, or i missed that blip in the FAQ.

Usually though unless it sounds along the lines of "that...makes no sense" i'll believe it for the time being to avoid an argument, or if an overwhelming number of people are saying it.

Logical answers are big to me. For instance the interaction with the new collision detector. For some reason the TO at the escal tourny on saturday ruled it as you completely ignore the obstacle since its not a maneuver. That bugs the hell out of me since that makes NO SENSE, but im not the TO so i kept my mouth shut.

We had one toxic player in our group. He's been banned now. Apart from him we had the occasional rules discussion, but rarely do the FAQ and Reference need to be consulted. This game is well-designed. It's so different from the "gotcha 40k" I used to play.

Weird double post

Although the above said; I've heard many arguments about what "outside material" constitutes...

Sounds like you need a Rules Lawyer to tell them.

If someone starts yelling at me, I don't care who you are, your going to get hurt.

If someone starts yelling at me, I don't care who you are, your going to get hurt.

...over plastic spaceships. Hopefully the TO in this case stands for "thrown out" because that's what you'd deserve. Handle it like an adult, don't be an overgrown baby.

Also, *you're.

This wasn't a "call the TO" over thing, it was more of a confused, "Huh..." sort of thing. No one was going to get hurt, I mean...c'mon.

And all those examples I listed, they were not they guy, that was other people. This guy normally actually answers rules and knows the rules well, which adds to the "huh" factor for me.

When I say 'rule lawyer', I don't mean a person who points out how a tricky card, interaction, or phrase is correctly done. Conciseness and clarity are very good things, especially in a game with this much variety and so many interactions. No, I mean the person who tries to use sometimes ambiguous or sloppy wording to their advantage (and lets all face it, FFG is really good at ambiguous and sloppy wording).

This weekend, I was yelled at when I asked a guy if he was really going to argue what the meaning of 'turn' and 'round' was, especially when considering that the card in question (Thane's pilot ability) didn't even mention 'round' or 'turn'. I was genuinely curious if he was serious, because I have never heard someone do that before. I'm not even sure what his argument was, but he ended up yelling that I should, "enjoy being a *****", as he huffed and sort of slammed his tokens and pieces around. Needless to say, its stuff like that guy's attitude that can really ruin a match (or game, depending on how someone wants to define it...). It makes matter a little worse since this guy tries to be be more present and representative of our local X-Wing community, but he routinely talks people down and has on occasion even almost forced new players out of the game (They just sort of avoid him after a little while).

This isn't meant to be an attack on this one guy, but it did bring to mind the numerous times a match I have played in has been more or less ruined by 'rule lawyering', and how being this pedantic when the the intend or use of a card clear. Early on in the game, I had a guy try to argue that 'you' meant the player, not the ship (I cannot remember if this clarified in the earliest version of the rules). Someone tried to argue that that both actions on Gonk couldn't be used per turn, even though they are obviously two separate actions. I saw a guy argue that Extra Munitions could technically be used twice - giving a torpedo 4 shots - because Extra Munitions was used in the torpedo slot and this got an extra munitions token. I had a guy try to argue that a 'round' was one entire game during a tournament. There are plenty more, but you get the point.

We all like being competitive, but sometimes this just gets out of control. Does anyone else experience this? Or am I just being a baby after being yelled at and called a **** for asking if a guy was seriously arguing something that....strange?

Actually before it was FAQ'd I asked the rules department at FFG and got the answer "no cannot do that since both actions come from the same card", so I could at least understand where that guy comes from, since getting an "official" answer from the FFG rules department is a thing I'd normally trust... but then it was exactly different in the FAQ.