Ok, I am going to say it...

IMO (only) L5R 5th Ed, would be wiser to drop its "independent system" and adopt both the DnD 5th Ed, AND the Pathfinder systems. They are not so far apart, and you can column the separate rules/stats in a single book. Go Open Gaming License and cater to a superior market that wants more and is well populated, nobody plays L5R and a lot want to.

DnD5th Ed, desperately needs an "Oriental Adventures" game, and L5R is well respected in its rich culture, artwork and design. I love it, but there is no one around to play it. So why not cater to the biggest market available. Pathfinder also needs an "Oriental Adventure" game also. So L5R 5th Ed, could enter into both markets and sales would explode. Players of the two most populated games would and could buy L5R 5th Ed products, and expand their games into the jade empires. Also, this would allow third-parties, if not L5R to also expand on their design to the neighboring regions, especially Second City.

I entered into L5R during 4th Ed, and a lot of the books were out of print. Also its fan base is very difficult to find, and player are extremely rare. I do not know anyone in NY that plays it. Which is really too bad as the game is one of the best I have ever seen. Accordingly, I would personally enjoy a DnD/Pathfinder system so as to "sweep" my players into Rokugan (sp? - sorry) and enjoy an Oriental style game using L5R background, timeline, storyline, etc.

Ok, I am going to say it...

IMO (only) L5R 5th Ed, would be wiser to drop its "independent system" and adopt both the DnD 5th Ed, AND the Pathfinder systems. They are not so far apart, and you can column the separate rules/stats in a single book. Go Open Gaming License and cater to a superior market that wants more and is well populated, nobody plays L5R and a lot want to.

DnD5th Ed, desperately needs an "Oriental Adventures" game, and L5R is well respected in its rich culture, artwork and design. I love it, but there is no one around to play it. So why not cater to the biggest market available. Pathfinder also needs an "Oriental Adventure" game also. So L5R 5th Ed, could enter into both markets and sales would explode. Players of the two most populated games would and could buy L5R 5th Ed products, and expand their games into the jade empires. Also, this would allow third-parties, if not L5R to also expand on their design to the neighboring regions, especially Second City.

I entered into L5R during 4th Ed, and a lot of the books were out of print. Also its fan base is very difficult to find, and player are extremely rare. I do not know anyone in NY that plays it. Which is really too bad as the game is one of the best I have ever seen. Accordingly, I would personally enjoy a DnD/Pathfinder system so as to "sweep" my players into Rokugan (sp? - sorry) and enjoy an Oriental style game using L5R background, timeline, storyline, etc.

that is a BRAVE statement my friend, and i admire you for voicing what is very likely to be a wildly unpopular opinion.

i don't actually disagree with you, though. certainly from a "get the game to the widest audience" standpoint its the way to go, but i think that 3.5/oriental adventures demonstrated that wasn't necessarily what was best for l5r. i'm also 100% sure thats not what fantasy flight is going to do.

d20 would be a poor fit for L5R, with its emphasis on anything-can-happen game play.

As was pointed, d20 is a poor poor choice for L5R. it doesn't work well for it, and while such products may appeal to a wider audience, the truth is, that wider audience does well without L5R. And Pathfinder does get some Oriental touch with Samurai, Ninja, and the Dragon Empire. It might not be a complete set, but it works well enough for it, but it's different than L5R.

As someone who has played every edition of the RPG, I concur with all of the above sentiments. The 3rd ed AD&D Oriental Adventures sourcebook was the worst treatment L5R ever got. And that includes the ultra hard days of 2nd ed, where you rolled your skill and kept your trait. Starting characters could get 3k3+3 at best for their rolls in that edition, and it was still a better fit than d20.

My favorite passage from that book was about how you could not see into the Shadowlands from the Kaiu Wall because it is another plane of existence.

Simply put, why would FFG give money to Wizards of the Coast when they own the R&K system? The distribution is not an issue, honestly. The RPG has its player base, and you just need to put the books in print to make them available.

So, while I agree that D20/D&D5E would be a poor fit for L5R, could we maybe get a little more evidence? Just declaring stuff doesn't make it true...

For me, the some issues with D20 are:

1. Is an attrition based game, and the HP/damage mechanics that D20 games must share to be compatible don't fit the historical lethality of the L5R mechanics and setting.

2. D20 models fighting as an arbitrary attack bonus, instead of a collection of skills.

3. The leveling is backwards. In L5R, XP raises skills and traits, and skills and traits raise school/insight rank. In D&D, the XP adds to levels, which grant skills and stat bonuses. Neither is inherently right or wrong, but I think the way D&D models character advancement doesn't quite fit how L5R thinks about it.

Also, let's be careful and avoid phrasing like "oriental adventures" or "oriental touch"... we walk a precarious and, to some, problematic line with L5R as it is!

Also the basic scripture of dnd and pathfinder (except dnd 4) is that martial characters are worse than casting classes. I mean as much as I complain about casters in l5r, it is DRAMATICALLY worse in dnd/pathfinder

To be fair, just about everyone knows that its likely going to be a Star Wars type-game ('Special' dice; a vary 'Narrative System'; with books dividing basic clans/character archetypes/etc. into different books requiring multiple purchases to get the 'full' game.).

Actually, I highly doubt that this will happen. They had the chance to do this with the Warhammer 40k RPG too, and they stuck with the old system so hard the newest system (Dark Heresy 2nd Edition) was barely more than a re-themed version of the previous one (Only War). In fact, they murdered a viable (if somewhat imperfect) beta that introduced many cool and new ideas (RIP in pieces Talent Trees...).

I’m afraid your gravely mistaken there, I was there for both of Betas, that was not the case. What they were trying to do was input brand new mechanics in a preexisting game that were incompatible with all it predecessors. If those new rules had been good people would have had better views of its first mode…

They weren’t.

My point is that at the very best/worst, this will happen again with L5R. The only exception being that introducing a totally different special snowflake system will induce even more fan rage (especially if they copy-paste the SW system) and thus will make FFG dance back to R&K even harder. It would be exactly like the Dark Heresy Beta, but worse.

For one, I think the guys at FFG are smarter than going through this (again). They want L5R to be a big thing, and taking the risk of introducing a whole new system is definitely incompatible with their greater goal.

Disclaimer: This post got a way from me a little, and it is not entirely a reply to you, AtoMaki, though much of it is. I apologize if I come off as at all harsh

Dark Heresy 2nd Edition was a dumpster fire all around and probably would have been better adjusting to a system similar to what they introduced with WFRP and continued in Star Wars, or actually creating a new system whole cloth. A lot of the 40k fans were as volatile as some of the people I see here, but I think FFG has learned not to trust an extremely vocal subset of a fanbase when creating their games. I hope this is the case, anyway. No matter what, they no longer have the GW license, so I'm not sure how much relevance the 40k system will have on the future of L5R.

FFG does take risks. I would argue it's what makes them one of the top gaming companies. They're not afraid to take a property someone else has worked on and say "you know what, I know this worked for these guys, but we're going to do something different." I'm less certain of FFG's recent overlords Asmodee, but we'll just have to see what happens.

In that vain, I expect a similar system to FFG's Star Wars system. It's a proven system, it's extremely balanced, and unlike just about every RPG on the market (L5R included) it even works at a high level. But it will need big changes to be appropriate to L5R, and they're not going to be afraid to make those changes. We'll probably even get a Beta (in .pdf even!) to help the process, and hopefully they don't give in to the haters.

I'll also make a note here about "book splitting": there is no one core Star Wars experience. You have Smugglers and Bounty Hunters existing at the fringes of space, you have plucky Rebels fighting against an overwhelming Empire, and you have Jedi engaged in a battle between the light side of the Force and the dark side. Splitting these experiences up was a smart move, in my opinion. I don't see it as a money grab, I see it as providing all of the information necessary to play Star Wars without having a 1,000 page core rulebook with no focus.

L5R, on the other hand, very much has one core experience: Samurai. Whether you are an honor-bound Lion, a pragmatic Crab, or a sneaky Scorpion, you're a Samurai. Whether you're a bushi, a courtier, or a shugenja, you're still a Samurai. I'm not sure in what manner they'll handle the clans, but I do expect them all to be in one book, and I think if there's any more unifying focus needed it will be classic: the Emerald Magistrates.

All just speculation, of course. What's not speculation is how tired I'm getting of everyone taking a dump on a system that is both mechanically sound and incredibly fun to play. Not every game is going to be fun for everyone, and I get that. But if you hate what FFG does that much, then I truly feel sorry for you that your game is no longer in AEG's hands. I would recommend giving whatever RPG these guy's produce (if they produce it) a try, but you might be better off sticking with 4E and adding whatever fixes you think are necessary.

I play FFG's Star Wars, and while it's a very good system, I'm not sure about it for L5R for the following reasons:

1) To give good treatment to every Bushi/Courtier/Shugenja/Monk/Ninja school out there, it would be a pain in the neck on word count. Not to mention the addition of many Talents, and breaking down of some current Techniques into several Talents.

2) L5R has always been about improving both Skills and Traits. Star Wars is based around making Traits (Attributes in SW) very difficult to improve, oh, and they go only up to 6.

3) How would having 8 traits and 5 Rings, which 4 of the Rings derived eahc from 2 Traits? It would cumbersome the SW system.

4) The Force, the closest thing to Magic SW has, is handled very differently than L5R's magic, and it would be a pain to try to convert L5R's magic to something even remotely similar.

Oh, and number 1 also means that if they were to treat each Clan well, they would need more than 3 Core books for it. Each Core book offers 16 Specializations, and Rokugan has around 60 basic schools just for the Great Clans.

On your point 4.... not such a bad thing. From what I have heard from a few friends who really like ffg's star wars games, they managed to make Force powers fun to use but not overpowering to the normies. L5R could use something like that.

I also think it's fair too expect lots of the extra content to be tossed out. You don't need a bunch of extra schools if the ones you do have are more flexible

But that goes against the static nature of the setting. The Techniques for each School were perfected when they were established. Also, it could open the door to another problem, since SW allows one to study several Specializations, and even encourages it.

I also think it's fair too expect lots of the extra content to be tossed out. You don't need a bunch of extra schools if the ones you do have are more flexible

However, in my opinion, flexibility removes the immersion. Why? Because it removes the ideology behind a dojo. A dojo will always keep their student tightly close to their traditions. Sure, it feels restrictive, but that's how a dojo works and it's the same as in real world. If I would go into a karate dojo, I will learn the very same stuffs as everyone has learned in the past. I will not learned a move from, let's say, taekwondo, I will keep learning karate. Unless I change the dojo, I will not have any flexibility.

That's why I feel like it remove the immersion. By removing those schools and create a "pick a tree path" system, it totally removes the ideology behind a dojo. Unlike SW or D&D, L5R has this tradition feeling, where diverging from the main stream is seen as a insult to the ancestors. So I do not see how the "extra school" is really that "extra", the system already has alternate path to fill up the Clan needs by making sure it still has this Clan flavor.

I'm not saying that I hate flexibility, in fact, I played a lot of system with specialization trees, like Exalted, but in these systems, the characters weren't tied to anything, it was all free learning. In L5R, it shouldn't be: "What do you want to be?" it's "Based on your skills, you will be doing these for your duty." In my opinion, the only place where I could see this kind of tree would be Ronin Schools. Because they have some freedom and they are mostly self learning. Outside if it, I can't see how it's possible. The only thing I see about specialization tree with L5R instead of schools is it will denaturalize L5R... For this I do think that yes, we do need a bunch of extra schools, in addition of a few generic schools (every clan should have archers, duelist, scouts, etc...)

FFG for L5R can do what CGL did with Shadowrun; take the foundation of 4th Edition and improve upon it for 5th Edition, instead of making a whole new system.

Last I looked into this, I sort of had in mind this:

These rules basically remove Shugenja from combat, this provides a clear role distinction.

1. Add skills: Commune, Exorcism, Importune, Prayer, Sumnmon

2. Shugenja use above skills to interact with the Kami instead of spells. Each school deals with a particular element/type of Kami.

3. Some spells get replaced by school techniques, shugenja schools have 5 base techniques like every other school. (Kuni get Jade Strike, Tamori get the weaponcraft spells)

But largely a shugenja's role is to ask the Kami questions, and banish evil spirits. And, they now have enough skills required for thier role that they can't also focus on courtier and bushi skills.

On the subject of keeping the R&K system.

It is more likely then not that R&K will make a comeback in the FFG version of the game.

There are to many fans of the game for them to do a conversion to "special dice".

When they got warhammer fantasy and W40k they gained one game with a large fan base (40K) and one with a faltering line (Fantasy).

Notice which one was choosing to host the new mechanics.

With the star wars licence they got the rights to make a rpg but not the rights to any game engine so they used a highly modified version of an engine that was in house (Fantasy)

with Legends of the five rings (L5R) they got the whole package. A Licence with a large fan base, a working (in some ways) engine that the fans are experience with and plenty of free source material to draw from.

So I see a 5th ed version of the game in the future with a pay to play beta release to iron out the changes they are going to make.

to change the game to any other engine at this point would be line suicide as they would lose large section of the fan base and being as niche as it is not having much hope of drawing in new fans.

remember this is not Star Wars where you have the fan base from you know where

now for things I would change.

1. I don't see shugenja as the issue. to me the issue is that the other careers got Nerf to much.

2. there has to be a better mechanic for moving initiative like some of the momentum systems I've seen on the forum. combat ebbs and flows it should not be so this is what you rolled and your stuck with it no matter what. and the should not be a void use thing. one option is to bring back the if you dont get hit your ini goes up by rule from 3rd. or just make it a maneuver.

3. weapons need their 3rd ed mechanic back. we need weapon with their own personality. not just katanas

4. maho needs to be scary. the current rules just don't put the fear into the players that it should.

5. there needs to be some type of instant elemental shield spell for all spell casters for countering spells.

like Spell Counter spell

caster this spell as a free interrupt

use the opposite element from the original casting (void for maho) make a spell casting check if you beat the final result of the casters roll you counter the spell as the kami repel each other.

or something like that.

On the subject of keeping the R&K system.

It is more likely then not that R&K will make a comeback in the FFG version of the game.

There are to many fans of the game for them to do a conversion to "special dice".

When they got warhammer fantasy and W40k they gained one game with a large fan base (40K) and one with a faltering line (Fantasy).

Notice which one was choosing to host the new mechanics.

With the star wars licence they got the rights to make a rpg but not the rights to any game engine so they used a highly modified version of an engine that was in house (Fantasy)

with Legends of the five rings (L5R) they got the whole package. A Licence with a large fan base, a working (in some ways) engine that the fans are experience with and plenty of free source material to draw from.

So I see a 5th ed version of the game in the future with a pay to play beta release to iron out the changes they are going to make.

to change the game to any other engine at this point would be line suicide as they would lose large section of the fan base and being as niche as it is not having much hope of drawing in new fans.

remember this is not Star Wars where you have the fan base from you know where

now for things I would change.

1. I don't see shugenja as the issue. to me the issue is that the other careers got Nerf to much.

2. there has to be a better mechanic for moving initiative like some of the momentum systems I've seen on the forum. combat ebbs and flows it should not be so this is what you rolled and your stuck with it no matter what. and the should not be a void use thing. one option is to bring back the if you dont get hit your ini goes up by rule from 3rd. or just make it a maneuver.

3. weapons need their 3rd ed mechanic back. we need weapon with their own personality. not just katanas

4. maho needs to be scary. the current rules just don't put the fear into the players that it should.

5. there needs to be some type of instant elemental shield spell for all spell casters for countering spells.

like Spell Counter spell

caster this spell as a free interrupt

use the opposite element from the original casting (void for maho) make a spell casting check if you beat the final result of the casters roll you counter the spell as the kami repel each other.

or something like that.

#5 I think they only reluctantly added counter-spelling because at least in the fluff, Shugenja aren't really involved in combat, they have Yojimbo for that. The problem with 4th is... unless you are a specific school, most non-combat/healing spells are useless.

I think the combat system and mechanics are mostly fine, the only problems are the tacked-in special snowflake sub-systems like dueling which break flow because you have to look up the mechanics instead of just making a roll.

I also think Kiho, Maho, Spells, Kata should just all get rolled into School/Techniques, or if you want to still have some extra-curricular powers, make them techniques that you buy with XP, and have to find the master and dojo that teaches it.

I think the combat system and mechanics are mostly fine, the only problems are the tacked-in special snowflake sub-systems like dueling which break flow because you have to look up the mechanics instead of just making a roll.

Dueling is more a presentation problem rather than an over complex mechanical sub-system.

An Iaijutsu Duel is basically 2 characters performing a 3 action attack against each other.

First action is an Assessment check based on the targets Insight Rank to Id target numbers.

Second Action is a Focus action to charge up and buff the final action.

Third Action is a Strike action to make the actual attack followed by damage.

Once you realize that an Iaijutsu duel becomes fairly simple.

1- I also think Kiho, Maho, Spells, Kata should just all get rolled into School/Techniques,

or

2- if you want to still have some extra-curricular powers, make them techniques that you buy with XP, and have to find the master and dojo that teaches it.

I split them in 2, because it's 2 differents things.

1- Honestly, good luck finding a good way to introduce that the good and right way. Sure, if you look at specific schools, like Kuni Shugenja, it's fairly easy, but when you look at more all-rounded schools, like Isawa Shugenja or the Agasha Shugenja, it's pretty hard to do it the right way without doing an heavy system. This also feels like it's going in the wrong direction. Why? Because people wants choice and a bit of diversities. It's already said a lot in different topics that people wants some generic bushi school (Archers, Duelist, etc.). So by doing this, it sends the Shugenja into a linear progression, which doesn't feel right.

2- I honestly think that the current system is fine, minus two things.

First, the way to learn new non-Maho spells. I only allow my players to choose their spells when they rank up. Between those, I give them spells through gifts. I always felt like it shall be the way to learn new spells outside of the training for ranking up. Why? Because I don't see any reason for a Shugenja to not have every spells otherwise.

Second, the way that rank 6 spells are handled. We all know that most people have troubles with those spells and feels like they are too easy to cast. I always felt like they shall be cast as a ritual and not normal spells. Plus, they shall be restricted. For those, I cannot agree more to have to find the master and dojo that teaches it. But for the rest, I rarely have problem with those.

I think the combat system and mechanics are mostly fine, the only problems are the tacked-in special snowflake sub-systems like dueling which break flow because you have to look up the mechanics instead of just making a roll.

Dueling is more a presentation problem rather than an over complex mechanical sub-system.

An Iaijutsu Duel is basically 2 characters performing a 3 action attack against each other.

First action is an Assessment check based on the targets Insight Rank to Id target numbers.

Second Action is a Focus action to charge up and buff the final action.

Third Action is a Strike action to make the actual attack followed by damage.

Once you realize that an Iaijutsu duel becomes fairly simple.

Honestly, you could just introduce a general Assesment action, a general Focus action, turn Strike into normal combat round, and basically say that Duel is a Skirmish where first two rounds are spent on Assessing and Focusing. Bonus points for making these actions useful outside of duel, like, in normal encounters.

One of funniest things about current system is that you can reach ungodly heights of swordsmanship against a 10 years old boy who rolls poorly on Focus giving you massive Free Raises that allow you to break mortal limits, but you couldn't replicate this feat against unmoving straw doll to save your life because there is nothing to Focus against.

Honestly, you could just introduce a general Assesment action, a general Focus action, turn Strike into normal combat round, and basically say that Duel is a Skirmish where first two rounds are spent on Assessing and Focusing. Bonus points for making these actions useful outside of duel, like, in normal encounters.

We have this in our homebrew, and while Focus and Assessment as normal actions do make for more interesting fights, they also kinda break the pace because they are "passive" actions with "active" consequences.

Honestly, you could just introduce a general Assesment action, a general Focus action, turn Strike into normal combat round, and basically say that Duel is a Skirmish where first two rounds are spent on Assessing and Focusing. Bonus points for making these actions useful outside of duel, like, in normal encounters.

One of funniest things about current system is that you can reach ungodly heights of swordsmanship against a 10 years old boy who rolls poorly on Focus giving you massive Free Raises that allow you to break mortal limits, but you couldn't replicate this feat against unmoving straw doll to save your life because there is nothing to Focus against.

Very true and also Assessment of opponents and Focusing before Striking are very much a staple of Samurai and Wuxia fiction.

We have this in our homebrew, and while Focus and Assessment as normal actions do make for more interesting fights, they also kinda break the pace because they are "passive" actions with "active" consequences.

The only way I could see that pace breaking occurring is if almost every one in the fight is assessing first round, focusing second round and then striking 3rd round.

At that point the question is "why does everyone feel the need to assess and focus before attacking?" That may mean that they all see the benefits for assessing and focusing before making 1 attack is greater than the benefit of making 3 attacks.

Only certain fighting styles (iaijutsu and sniper archery being two of them) should be regularly doing that.

Yeah, in most fights, if your whole party is spending two rounds on Assessing / Focusing, your opponents probably should shred you to tiny bits by attacking you in the face. I'm not sure I understand the "passive skill with active consequences", could you paste your take on these actions? I won't lie, I was asked to search for a way to implement this ("Duel as a standard skirmish, Assessment/Focus as something usable outside of duels"). I remember that you AtoMaki and Kinzen and a few other pepole had really cool homebrews, but I haven't been here for like million years and a lot of cool stuff probably happened somewhere someday.

The only way I could see that pace breaking occurring is if almost every one in the fight is assessing first round, focusing second round and then striking 3rd round.

At that point the question is "why does everyone feel the need to assess and focus before attacking?" That may mean that they all see the benefits for assessing and focusing before making 1 attack is greater than the benefit of making 3 attacks.

Only certain fighting styles (iaijutsu and sniper archery being two of them) should be regularly doing that.

It is more like the players will do Assessment in the first and/or the second round to seize up their opponents (knowing the enemy's Weapon Skill and Insight Rank is a good thing) from behind Defense or Full Defense. When the fight actually erupts, players usually do Assessment to learn Armor TN and Wounds so that they attack the opponents they can hit and they don't waste their attacks on dying enemies. It is like an "information is power" and "knowing is half the battle" kind of deal, and it will sure introduce small breaks in the fight when everyone is busy assessing the other (especially when changing opponents and you have to do the assessing all over again).

On the other hand, a Focus action is like a compact Center Stance, but without its drawbacks. It is, like, why wouldn't you use it? Get that Focus rolling and wreck somebody's day with Feint. Negate Defense/Full Defense Stances. Get through Wound TN penalties. But yeah, just like with Center Stance, it is going to break the action only to push it into overdrive next (this can get a little rocket arena-y btw).

I remember that you AtoMaki and Kinzen and a few other pepole had really cool homebrews, but I haven't been here for like million years and a lot of cool stuff probably happened somewhere someday.

I linked the homebrew my group is using back in Page 1.

Ah, I'll check that out.

As for Assessment, hmm. In general, we don't have time to waste in actual combats to go and do that. On the other hand, Bushi tend to assess each other a lot outside of combat, so all that info is often available to people much earlier than the actual fight.