So at this point we do not yet know whether the RPG will make it back, and, if it does, if it will change in some way or retain the old R&K mechanic. But assuming it does, and we will indeed see a fifth Edition of L5R-RPG using the same core mechanic, what would you want to see from it?

Basically speaking, 4E was indeed, all things considered, the best incarnation of the system so far. It set out to do 3 things, compared to 3E/3ER:

- Simplify the system to make it easier to use

- Re-adjust overall balance among the schools

- Clean up the worst balance problems and remove ways to "break the game" even really early on

They definitely succeeded with the first goal, and to a wide extent with the second and third. Overall, it was an improvement over previous editions, but it still had some minor shortcomings and balance issues. What, if anything, would you want changed for a 5E?

Would you derive it from 4E or 3ER (or even another previous edition)?

I'd personally build based on 4E but splice in one important bit from 3ER (namely the Armour TN progression based on 5*Ref + 2*Defence), plus some other minor or medium-sized changes. The most pressing, to me:

- Buff skills in general (by introducing some changes to mastery abilities mostly, both introducing specific masteries and generic ones), since right now it's barely worth investing in most skills to more than, maybe, 3-5 Ranks

- Clean up some skills and advantages (split Deceit away from the concept of Sincerity and return the former to being an emphasis of Etiquette and Courtier depending on the use case, remove "Inheritance", make the Raise from Consumed with Perfection be usable for effect as well as examples)

- Either buff Bushi and Courtiers slightly or nerf Shugenja

- Make casting in Defense stance require 1 or 2 Raises, reduce the Raises for Extra attacks back to 4, rework armour TN as mentioned before, extend the Out wound rank to *3 to reduce lethality from otherwise victorious fights

- Rework Maho again - 4E did the Jigoku's hidden weapon thing decently, but it doesn't work for faustian bargains and there are (in my opinion) no useful countermeasures. Willingly taking Taint should make for stronger Maho, and monks and Shugenja should be able to muster partial defences against it

That should take care of the most important issues in my opinion. Did I miss anything? What's your opinion? Or do you think 4E is good as it is and we don't even need a 5e?

- Clean up some skills and advantages (split Deceit away from the concept of Sincerity and return the former to being an emphasis of Etiquette and Courtier depending on the use case, remove "Inheritance", make the Raise from Consumed with Perfection be usable for effect as well as examples)

In D&D, when someone has high Bluff and low Diplomacy they're better at convincing someone with lies than with the truth. That always strikes me as bizarre. Tying Deceit to Sincerity helps prevent this because Sincerity is used only to convince someone that you believe what you're saying. They're still free to believe that you're wrong (and might require a Courtier check to convince otherwise, depending on the situation).

Other than that, I agree with all your other changes.

I would also add that Reflexes is too powerful. Given how important it is to land the first blow in this system, having defenses, ranged attacks, initiative, and dueling all dependent on the same trait is too much, in my opinion.

Remove the ability to improve casting time from spells entirely.

Conversely add in a mechanic that shows off the concept of annoying the kami. Really my only real complaint about this edition is that power disparity with no real drawback.

Conversely you can throw in a meta currency like FATE to make up the difference in player agency

The thing with Shugenja in 4E, and why 4E is basically Shugenja edition is a combination of multiple, small facts. But generally, it could be said that Shugenja can choose to be as effective in Combat as bushi, or as useful in social situations as Courtiers...while being able to do other things as well, or having unique utility on the side (this applies to Togashi monks as well to an extent, but that's another story).

And this is the effect of several things related to Shugenja themselves as well as overall mechanics:

- There is a wide selection of spells which, even at low ranks, can do useful things in most situations (and some, like Tempest of Air or Mental Quickness, are downright broken). Since they also gain more spells in 4E, they have significant versatility early on, and it only gets better

- Ring- and Trait-based builds without much investment in certain skills have gotten a lot better. Shugenja are Ring/Trait-based builds

- Defence stance a.k.a. Shugenja stance plus the removal from Defence as a necessary skill for fighters means that low-ranking Shugenja often have a respectable or even good armour TN already. Factoring in that they ALSO have no hard-and-fast rule or mechanical incentive that keeps them from wearing armour, and yeah, they have a really strong defence, while they can still fight with a weapon OR circumvent enemy armour TN with spells

- Spells/day are more of an issue than in 3E since there is no longer an option to cast spells for free or recover spell slots except for Rejuvenating vapours, but still, L5R-RPG doesn't have too many mechanical encounters per day. The Shugenja might not be able to solo the entire module, but he will be able to cast spells for all the relevant parts and the bushi will probably run out of HP before the Shugenja runs out of spells (also because the Shugenja is by far their best bet for restoring HP)

Capping the amount of speed Raises (or removing the mechanic entirely) will definitely do something about the late-game power of combat Shugenja, and give their bushi and bodyguards something to do, but I am not entirely sure it would do much to address their power at IR 1-2. It's clear that Shugenja need a nerf, but part of the disparity will probably also be addressed by buffs to bushi and some skills.

As for the Traits, I personally have found that while Reflexes is really powerful, Trait balance overall isn't limited to that...personally I'd say it goes something like this:

Tier 1 (slightly overpowered Traits):

Reflexes: By far the best combat stat, agreement there, particularly valuable when fighting larger numbers of weak enemies (since they won't even be able to touch the character)

Awareness: Nr. 1 out of combat Stat. Super good for social situations and duels as well

Void: Roll boosts. Raise cap(!). Insight. Somewhat justified since it's actually more expensive than other traits though, but Void 3 is definitely something characters should pick up sooner or later

Tier 2 (Balanced Traits):

Agility: Almost a Tier 1. Also a very important combat stat, and relevant out of combat as well. This one is good.

Intelligence: Out of combat stat, but one with a wide area of use. It basically covers a huge chunk of all things not directly Courtier or Bushi.

Willpower: Fear resistance, social defence, part of the very powerful Earth ring. Also used for intimidation. This isn't bad by far.

Tier 3 (Underpowered Traits):

Perception: Used for a lot of utility skills, but by and large non-essential to many, many builds (only detectives and tacticians actually need it). Also has no combat use outside of the water Ring and spotting Ninja. A bit too circumstantial.

Stamina: Best thing about this is it being part of the Earth Ring. Sure, healing wounds, resisting poison or staving off exhaustion is nice, but this, too, is too circumstantial

Strength: Poor, poor Strength. Agility does a better job boosting the character's damage output AND is just as useful out of combat as well. At least it's part of the Water Ring, but Strength is probably the least valuable Trait in the game.

Trait balance isn't terrible, no, but I feel that, particularly those weaker Traits need a small leg-up.

How I would overhaul L5R RPG R&K is an issue I always come back to, which I feel is a fairly common sentiment among the populace of us diehards. Kinzen has a large piece of her own work which is filled with delicious goodies. One day, I might get around to writing up my own series of sequential hacks that I have modded on to the base engine.

The biggest modification I have tried with L5R RPG 4E in regards to Shugenja, with definitely some tweaking still needing to be done, was to push the shugenja away from the "Wizardry!" type spell-caster into the more "ritualistic psuedo-shaman" dealing with the supernatural. I basically remodeled the Shugenja itself to function more like a combination of the Taoist priests from various Hopping Vampire movies mixed with Abe no Semmei from the Onmyouji films. In order to push this, I remodeled their Techniques to be effectively classed based microspells, and limited their spell selection. The former emphasized the talents their school was supposed to specialize in (Asahina are healers and illusionists, Kitsu commune and summon ancestors, etc.), and the latter put an emphasis on the Commune spell with "Importune Kami" effect. Effectively, you had three spells you started with, and one each Insight Rank after that. Any other spell? You needed to Importune.

As I said, it was not a complete overhaul and definitely needs some tweaking. But one of these days? I just might get around to doing that. As well as hammering out the "Branching Tree" style of progression.

oh hey is this where i drag out that rusty old axe i keep under my desk and grind it a bit about 4e and spider? cool! i'll be brief, i swear.

timeline neutrality doesn't work with spider. there are three distinct "spider" entities. the shadowlands horde with its oni, tainted, lost, etc. the pre-Gp4 spider, who took the most human looking part of the horde, and added shourido, with a lot of infiltration techniques to create a culturally distinct entity but which retained basically all of the supernatural evil. then you have the post deal spider, who carried over a lot of the culture, but were also experiencing a MASSIVE evolution, and also experienced a huge supernatural evolution as well due to the change in the taint and their political position.

say it with me now: YOU CANNOT USE THE SAME SINGLE MECHANICS AND FAMILIES FOR THESE THREE ENTITIES. the claim that 4e's timeline neutrality worked fine for spider ignores the fact that theres not just one spider. i know AEG didn't want to do clan specific books, but look, it 4e really needed a shadowlands/spider book. it needed more detail around all these things, not just a handful of sidebars. the fact that those were all we got suggested to me that either the RPG designers hated spider and were including it only under duress or, if i take my tinfoil hat off, more likely were under page and fiscal constraint and spider got the very short end of that stick. that doesn't make their solution good, however.

As for the Traits, I personally have found that while Reflexes is really powerful, Trait balance overall isn't limited to that...personally I'd say it goes something like this:

Tier 1 (slightly overpowered Traits):

Reflexes: By far the best combat stat, agreement there, particularly valuable when fighting larger numbers of weak enemies (since they won't even be able to touch the character)

Awareness: Nr. 1 out of combat Stat. Super good for social situations and duels as well

Void: Roll boosts. Raise cap(!). Insight. Somewhat justified since it's actually more expensive than other traits though, but Void 3 is definitely something characters should pick up sooner or later

Tier 2 (Balanced Traits):

Agility: Almost a Tier 1. Also a very important combat stat, and relevant out of combat as well. This one is good.

Intelligence: Out of combat stat, but one with a wide area of use. It basically covers a huge chunk of all things not directly Courtier or Bushi.

Willpower: Fear resistance, social defence, part of the very powerful Earth ring. Also used for intimidation. This isn't bad by far.

Tier 3 (Underpowered Traits):

Perception: Used for a lot of utility skills, but by and large non-essential to many, many builds (only detectives and tacticians actually need it). Also has no combat use outside of the water Ring and spotting Ninja. A bit too circumstantial.

Stamina: Best thing about this is it being part of the Earth Ring. Sure, healing wounds, resisting poison or staving off exhaustion is nice, but this, too, is too circumstantial

Strength: Poor, poor Strength. Agility does a better job boosting the character's damage output AND is just as useful out of combat as well. At least it's part of the Water Ring, but Strength is probably the least valuable Trait in the game.

Trait balance isn't terrible, no, but I feel that, particularly those weaker Traits need a small leg-up.

Intelligence's usefulness depends heavily on the GM's style, but otherwise I agree with all of this. Strength in particular really is a poor investment unless you need the Water ring for techniques or spells.

Some things that come to mind through my experience with my gaming group. We started with the last year of 3 ^rd Revised and then moved to 4 ^th Edition when it came out, My group really enjoyed 4 ^th over 3 ^rd .

-Have each Ring be used for something.

Air: N/A (Though I saw a house rule on Reddit that used Air instead Reflexes for Initiative rolls) I can dig that.

Earth: Wounds

Fire: N/A

Water: Movement

Void: Limited resource to gain an edge.

-Make both the Healthy and Out Wound Ranks Earth x5 instead of one or the other x2 (Simple fix).

-A “Reach” stat for weapons. Poor Spears and Polearms

-Courtiers could use some more crunchy love.

-An Intrigue/Social Combat System would be really nice. The one an Emerald Empire is so so or meh...

-Kata...

Can't say to much about Shugenjas, Spells, Monks and Kiho since folks rarely play them in my group.

Side Note: I really dig the Base Magic System on page 117 in the Legend of the Burning Sands book for L5R 3 ^rd Ed. With an update I can see it utilize well. Check it out for those that are interested.

Here, have the (incomplete) 5th Edition L5R system my gaming group is using. It has quite a lot of stuff. The basics are unchanged.

A few important but missing pieces:

- Shugenja are Clergy. "Honor" for the Clergy represents their faith and understanding of the Shintao.

- Anyone can buy katas at the cost of Mastery Level - relevant Keyword (Ring, Honor) Rank XP (minimum 1 XP). All katas add +1 Insight too. There are "Battle" and "Social" katas: these katas can be bought again for being used in Social Combat and Mass Battles too. Passive katas are activated in the Resolution Stage and remain in effect until changed; a character can have only one passive kata up, but he can use any number of active katas in the same turn as long as he has the Initiative points for it.

- Any Clergy character can buy and use kihos. No Ring/Mastery Ability limit - the character buys the kiho and it can be used any time he wants. The character can only benefit from one kiho for one specific action/roll/whatever. Just like katas, kiho also add +1 Insight.

oh hey is this where i drag out that rusty old axe i keep under my desk and grind it a bit about 4e and spider? cool! i'll be brief, i swear.

timeline neutrality doesn't work with spider. there are three distinct "spider" entities. the shadowlands horde with its oni, tainted, lost, etc. the pre-Gp4 spider, who took the most human looking part of the horde, and added shourido, with a lot of infiltration techniques to create a culturally distinct entity but which retained basically all of the supernatural evil. then you have the post deal spider, who carried over a lot of the culture, but were also experiencing a MASSIVE evolution, and also experienced a huge supernatural evolution as well due to the change in the taint and their political position.

say it with me now: YOU CANNOT USE THE SAME SINGLE MECHANICS AND FAMILIES FOR THESE THREE ENTITIES. the claim that 4e's timeline neutrality worked fine for spider ignores the fact that theres not just one spider. i know AEG didn't want to do clan specific books, but look, it 4e really needed a shadowlands/spider book. it needed more detail around all these things, not just a handful of sidebars. the fact that those were all we got suggested to me that either the RPG designers hated spider and were including it only under duress or, if i take my tinfoil hat off, more likely were under page and fiscal constraint and spider got the very short end of that stick. that doesn't make their solution good, however.

While I would concur that the Spider truly got the short end of the stick with the timeline neutrality, I think the entire system suffered for it. Most families and clans "evolved" over the game, and reducing them to "simplistic" (and I use that term loosely because nothing in L5R is ever truly SIMPLE) completely lost me. I own the 4E books because I have this need to "complete" sets, but I do not like them and do not use them. Bout the only thing my group really appreciates out of them is the codified dis/ad table.

The point to the setting was for the players to affect matters and change them. Stagnating the clans and establishing them as "always having been that way" is just plain silly to me.

And, truthfully, it stunk of poor fiscal management as well--think about it. If you stagnate the system into neutrality, then there's a limited number of books EVER needed for the game to be played. What were they thinking? Sure players don't want to continually pony up for new editions, but . . . for a company . . . new editions are the way to stay financially stable. (Horrible as they might be, textbook publishers figured that out long ago.) There needed to be a balance.

oh hey is this where i drag out that rusty old axe i keep under my desk and grind it a bit about 4e and spider? cool! i'll be brief, i swear.

timeline neutrality doesn't work with spider. there are three distinct "spider" entities. the shadowlands horde with its oni, tainted, lost, etc. the pre-Gp4 spider, who took the most human looking part of the horde, and added shourido, with a lot of infiltration techniques to create a culturally distinct entity but which retained basically all of the supernatural evil. then you have the post deal spider, who carried over a lot of the culture, but were also experiencing a MASSIVE evolution, and also experienced a huge supernatural evolution as well due to the change in the taint and their political position.

say it with me now: YOU CANNOT USE THE SAME SINGLE MECHANICS AND FAMILIES FOR THESE THREE ENTITIES. the claim that 4e's timeline neutrality worked fine for spider ignores the fact that theres not just one spider. i know AEG didn't want to do clan specific books, but look, it 4e really needed a shadowlands/spider book. it needed more detail around all these things, not just a handful of sidebars. the fact that those were all we got suggested to me that either the RPG designers hated spider and were including it only under duress or, if i take my tinfoil hat off, more likely were under page and fiscal constraint and spider got the very short end of that stick. that doesn't make their solution good, however.

While I would concur that the Spider truly got the short end of the stick with the timeline neutrality, I think the entire system suffered for it. Most families and clans "evolved" over the game, and reducing them to "simplistic" (and I use that term loosely because nothing in L5R is ever truly SIMPLE) completely lost me. I own the 4E books because I have this need to "complete" sets, but I do not like them and do not use them. Bout the only thing my group really appreciates out of them is the codified dis/ad table.

The point to the setting was for the players to affect matters and change them. Stagnating the clans and establishing them as "always having been that way" is just plain silly to me.

And, truthfully, it stunk of poor fiscal management as well--think about it. If you stagnate the system into neutrality, then there's a limited number of books EVER needed for the game to be played. What were they thinking? Sure players don't want to continually pony up for new editions, but . . . for a company . . . new editions are the way to stay financially stable. (Horrible as they might be, textbook publishers figured that out long ago.) There needed to be a balance.

Eh. I'll disagree with the core of your statement that timberline neutrality is bad. I came into the game this edition, specifically because I would not have to wade through a 90s era supplement treadmill to learn the real story of what's going on in the world. I really hate an active metaplot in games.

As for the clans not being the same throughout the timeline... are we talking about the same game line here? L5R is notorious for being static and unchanging. The game has over a thousand years of history and nothing has really changed over that time. The biggest change was the spider and shourido and look how popular that all was (either immensely or the worst thing ever depending on who you ask)

Honestly, I see multiple angles from which to pare down Shugenja's power, and to be honest, I think that some of them are good, others are not - and the primary consideration should always be thematic. Would the nerf make Shugenja feel more like what you want them to feel like or less so? To me, the main options for limiting Shugenja's powers seem to be:

- Nerfing their spellcasting mechanics (speed raises, casting in armour, TN increases crop up as the foremost measures)

- Reducing the amounts of spells they know to reduce their versatility (which is my personal favourite to be honest)

- Nerfing certain high-impact spells (some spells definitely need the nerf bat, too)

Whatever option one takes does, of course, affect how Shugenja can be played, how they feel to the player and how the limitations can be explained within the setting. Forcing the Shugenja to importune a lot of their spells seems like an excellent idea to me, personally, as it will address their biggest strengths while allowing them to still function and nerfs them in a way that is very much in line with the setting - other options do, of course, have other advantages and drawbacks, and I personally would even like if Shugenja picked up more techniques (instead of spells), modifying the way they, individually, cast spells.

As for the "Sincerity" skill, that one was always...something of a personal pet peeve. Basically, the Sincerity emphasis in 3E was a much different beast than today's Deceit skill with the legal option. It was meant to be about carefully phrasing your statements so as not to give offence - yet at the same time avoiding definite statements or promises (especially the latter, since a Samurai would actually have to keep them or lose honour and face). Something of a maneuvering thing where the sincerity of one's statements was a given, almost expected - and thus was also very binding for the characters themselves, and not letting the mouth write checks that they couldn't keep was a real and serious consideration.

Today's Sincerity skill makes sense, but it's a much more "western" or even americanized perspective on things in my opinion, where people say a lot of things and don't mean half of them, or could even be outright lying - and convincing someone of the veracity of one's statements is far more important than to very carefully picking the statements one makes.

I liked the 3E variant better, it was more distinct and unique

As for timeline neutrality - I am actually in the pro-Neutrality camp, basically, because to me it is most important to have base mechanics that work within the setting and support it, and support the vast majority of possible L5R-RPG campaigns. Sure, a campaign during the Dawn of the empire or in Modern-day Daigotsustan need different rules than most of the rest, but I'd rather have a small number of groups houserule or provide splatbook support than weaken the core game to make allowances for them.

4E's attempt for timeline neutrality was mostly successful in my opinions, and works just fine for most Clans, and I don't really see a better alternative after addressing some of the minor gripes (like making Ancestral Hiruma the Splatbook school and Scout the Core school, which would be infinitely preferable - or making one 1-2 paths working with the other).

I'll also take a look at some of the other content that has been posted here, but just like I have some plans (like axing the SAA power spike and instead giving Bushi scaling damage) I'd much rather focus on small but effective changes and adjustments instead of sweeping rebuilds - simply because it's easier to find a consensus that way.

Honestly, I see multiple angles from which to pare down Shugenja's power, and to be honest, I think that some of them are good, others are not - and the primary consideration should always be thematic. Would the nerf make Shugenja feel more like what you want them to feel like or less so? To me, the main options for limiting Shugenja's powers seem to be:

- Nerfing their spellcasting mechanics (speed raises, casting in armour, TN increases crop up as the foremost measures)

- Reducing the amounts of spells they know to reduce their versatility (which is my personal favourite to be honest)

- Nerfing certain high-impact spells (some spells definitely need the nerf bat, too)

Whatever option one takes does, of course, affect how Shugenja can be played, how they feel to the player and how the limitations can be explained within the setting. Forcing the Shugenja to importune a lot of their spells seems like an excellent idea to me, personally, as it will address their biggest strengths while allowing them to still function and nerfs them in a way that is very much in line with the setting - other options do, of course, have other advantages and drawbacks, and I personally would even like if Shugenja picked up more techniques (instead of spells), modifying the way they, individually, cast spells.

I will not agree with this, but for different reasons. I think that the system just lack one thing, kami's notoriety. To me, it's the incarnation of the famous quote: "With great power come great responsabilities." By simply adding a kami's notoriety system based on the tasks of a Shugenja, which isn't just about casting a spell, it solves most abusing problems.

I just feel like doing things like (note that I wrote this by writing this post, it's a pure random idea that comes up), the Shugenja shall performs based on the highest mastery spell casted during the last day/week/month:

Mastery level 0: Perform some scribe duty

Mastery level 1: Perform minor teachings, answering to peasants petition

Mastery level 2: Perform moderate teachings, performing minor rites (Spirit warding)

Mastery level 3: Perform major teachings or build a small altar to the kami (1 meter cube)

Mastery level 4: Build an medium size altar (3 meter cube) or performs major rites (Spirit exorcisms, purification rights for birth/death)

Mastery level 5: Build an altar of important size (9 meter cube), performs a ceremony (Wedding for example)

Mastery level 6+: Build a small temple (20 meter cube), lead a spiritual pilgrimage.

Refusing to perform their duty would result a gain of kami's notoriety which raises the spell casting difficulty per 5 for each notoriety point and at 5 points of notoriety, the kami stop listening to the Shugenja. By doing this, I feel like the Shugenja gains their duty as the spiritual lead, which is very lacking in the current system. Of course, it's just a pure random idea that I've thought while posting this... it may be different.

Before someone tell: "But if I'm able to cast rank 6 spells, I don't want to stop my game just to build a small temple", at this point, chances are that the character has people under them and he can ask them to build the temple, but he'll have to check once in a while that the projet is going well. So this would prevent the game to have a wierd pace just because the Shugenja has some duty to do and he's the voice of the kami.

How I worked out the Shugenja Balance Issue, in a bit more detail:

1) Schools provided 3 spells, 1 of which was pre-determined.

2) Schools provided a Technique that ate Spell Slots to use, but were generally worth it.

3) Shugenja gained 1 spell when increasing their school rank. They could not gain spells through any other means.

4) Importuning the Kami through Commune would allow a shugenja to perform spells they did not know, but required specific activities based on the level of Spell required. Effectively, they had to provide a degree of devotional reverence either before hand or a greater amount later down the line. For example, spending 10 minutes in prayer, burning incense would be sufficient for a rank 1 Spell; spending an hour in prayer every morning with incense for the next seven days would be sufficient for a Rank 3 spell; erecting a permanent shrine or starting a festival day for yearly remembrance would be sufficient fro a Rank 5 spell.

Regarding Timeline Neutrality:

Timeline Neutrality REALLY only works for the 6 core Great Clans that have been with the Empire since the beginning. The Crab, Crane, Dragon, Lion, Phoenix and Scorpion all function in reasonable balance with each other, and form a three mirrored sets. The Lion and the Crab are the military clans, with the Lion being honorable and the Crab being pragmatic. The Crane and the Scorpion function the same for courtly matters, and the Phoenix and the Dragon function the same for spiritual matters. It is really the introduction of the 3 additional Great Clans that things start getting niche / unbalanced.

The Unicorn work best as a Clan of outsiders who returned to the Empire within the last two generations. The Mantis work best as a Clan of risen lesser samurai who became a Great Clan within the last generation due to one man's ambition. The Spider work best as a Clan of Tainted / "evil" samurai who have rise to Great Clan status through the explicit order of the Emperor within this generation, making their existence unchallengeable.

Each of those three Clans represent fundamental changes to the Status Quo of the Emerald Empire. Before the Unicorn, gaijin are a mysterious, dangerous force who need to be destroyed no matter what. Before the Mantis, either you're born a Great Clan samurai or you're trash. Before the Spider, all who are Tainted are the enemy of the Empire.

In order to include them in the "Timeline Neutral" approach, each of these three Clans need a "Canon" origin (outlined above), a "BSG Reboot" origin which pre-supposes their existence along with the Empire from the beginning, and a "Campaign Central" approach with the idea of a game surrounding the sudden presence of this Clan in the Empire.

Again, just my thoughts on this.

oh hey is this where i drag out that rusty old axe i keep under my desk and grind it a bit about 4e and spider? cool! i'll be brief, i swear.

timeline neutrality doesn't work with spider. there are three distinct "spider" entities. the shadowlands horde with its oni, tainted, lost, etc. the pre-Gp4 spider, who took the most human looking part of the horde, and added shourido, with a lot of infiltration techniques to create a culturally distinct entity but which retained basically all of the supernatural evil. then you have the post deal spider, who carried over a lot of the culture, but were also experiencing a MASSIVE evolution, and also experienced a huge supernatural evolution as well due to the change in the taint and their political position.

say it with me now: YOU CANNOT USE THE SAME SINGLE MECHANICS AND FAMILIES FOR THESE THREE ENTITIES. the claim that 4e's timeline neutrality worked fine for spider ignores the fact that theres not just one spider. i know AEG didn't want to do clan specific books, but look, it 4e really needed a shadowlands/spider book. it needed more detail around all these things, not just a handful of sidebars. the fact that those were all we got suggested to me that either the RPG designers hated spider and were including it only under duress or, if i take my tinfoil hat off, more likely were under page and fiscal constraint and spider got the very short end of that stick. that doesn't make their solution good, however.

While I would concur that the Spider truly got the short end of the stick with the timeline neutrality, I think the entire system suffered for it. Most families and clans "evolved" over the game, and reducing them to "simplistic" (and I use that term loosely because nothing in L5R is ever truly SIMPLE) completely lost me. I own the 4E books because I have this need to "complete" sets, but I do not like them and do not use them. Bout the only thing my group really appreciates out of them is the codified dis/ad table.

The point to the setting was for the players to affect matters and change them. Stagnating the clans and establishing them as "always having been that way" is just plain silly to me.

And, truthfully, it stunk of poor fiscal management as well--think about it. If you stagnate the system into neutrality, then there's a limited number of books EVER needed for the game to be played. What were they thinking? Sure players don't want to continually pony up for new editions, but . . . for a company . . . new editions are the way to stay financially stable. (Horrible as they might be, textbook publishers figured that out long ago.) There needed to be a balance.

Eh. I don't know if i agree that every clan suffered here. Thats not just spider partisan sour grapes. What fundamental changes did the major clans experience that would need mechanics? I'll grant that maybe you'd want to reflect how the mantis evolved from minor clans into houses of a major clan, so if i were in charge i'd probably do that, but rokugan is defined by its static nature. its part of why the adventurous spirit of the unicorn is considered so unsavory by most clans. crane, lion, phoenix, crab all had basically one set of families. dragon you might sidebar the ise zumi stuff but thats a case where a sidebar works. unicorn show up very different from everyone else, but then immediately settle into rokugan's static pattern, as far as their internal mechanics go. scorpion are the only ones i'm not sure about, and thats ignorance mostly. i don't know a huge amount about when bitter lies entered into their repertoire, and if they picked up anything over in the burning sands. but you get my point. timeline neutrality as a concept works for the clans because they hold timelessness as an ideal. perhaps spider would have eventually too, but since they started as one entity, and evolved into two distinct other ones as a consequences of player interaction, its hard to pin them down to one set of mechanics.

Honestly, I see multiple angles from which to pare down Shugenja's power, and to be honest, I think that some of them are good, others are not - and the primary consideration should always be thematic. Would the nerf make Shugenja feel more like what you want them to feel like or less so? To me, the main options for limiting Shugenja's powers seem to be:

- Nerfing their spellcasting mechanics (speed raises, casting in armour, TN increases crop up as the foremost measures)

- Reducing the amounts of spells they know to reduce their versatility (which is my personal favourite to be honest)

- Nerfing certain high-impact spells (some spells definitely need the nerf bat, too)

Whatever option one takes does, of course, affect how Shugenja can be played, how they feel to the player and how the limitations can be explained within the setting. Forcing the Shugenja to importune a lot of their spells seems like an excellent idea to me, personally, as it will address their biggest strengths while allowing them to still function and nerfs them in a way that is very much in line with the setting - other options do, of course, have other advantages and drawbacks, and I personally would even like if Shugenja picked up more techniques (instead of spells), modifying the way they, individually, cast spells.

I will not agree with this, but for different reasons. I think that the system just lack one thing, kami's notoriety. To me, it's the incarnation of the famous quote: "With great power come great responsabilities." By simply adding a kami's notoriety system based on the tasks of a Shugenja, which isn't just about casting a spell, it solves most abusing problems.

I just feel like doing things like (note that I wrote this by writing this post, it's a pure random idea that comes up), the Shugenja shall performs based on the highest mastery spell casted during the last day/week/month:

Mastery level 0: Perform some scribe duty

Mastery level 1: Perform minor teachings, answering to peasants petition

Mastery level 2: Perform moderate teachings, performing minor rites (Spirit warding)

Mastery level 3: Perform major teachings or build a small altar to the kami (1 meter cube)

Mastery level 4: Build an medium size altar (3 meter cube) or performs major rites (Spirit exorcisms, purification rights for birth/death)

Mastery level 5: Build an altar of important size (9 meter cube), performs a ceremony (Wedding for example)

Mastery level 6+: Build a small temple (20 meter cube), lead a spiritual pilgrimage.

Refusing to perform their duty would result a gain of kami's notoriety which raises the spell casting difficulty per 5 for each notoriety point and at 5 points of notoriety, the kami stop listening to the Shugenja. By doing this, I feel like the Shugenja gains their duty as the spiritual lead, which is very lacking in the current system. Of course, it's just a pure random idea that I've thought while posting this... it may be different.

Before someone tell: "But if I'm able to cast rank 6 spells, I don't want to stop my game just to build a small temple", at this point, chances are that the character has people under them and he can ask them to build the temple, but he'll have to check once in a while that the projet is going well. So this would prevent the game to have a wierd pace just because the Shugenja has some duty to do and he's the voice of the kami.

I have found that rp restrictions are never a reliable balance point for mechanical advantage.

The best answer I've ever seen for playing charecters of wildly different in game power levels comes from FATE, and dresden files specifically. Weaker characters are given a meta currency to use so that the PLAYERS can use them to affect the story (I need the guard to be drowsy so I can sneak in, spend a meta point and this becomes true).

The best answer I've ever seen for playing charecters of wildly different in game power levels comes from FATE, and dresden files specifically. Weaker characters are given a meta currency to use so that the PLAYERS can use them to affect the story (I need the guard to be drowsy so I can sneak in, spend a meta point and this becomes true).

I think part of the problem here is the "classes/schools/themes that use of magic are more powerful" mentality of western games and fiction. "Weaker" characters do not need Meta currency if they are not actually weaker.

Honestly, regarding shugenja, I have been wondering if it might not be better to reduce the importance of "spells", as they function in the rpg at the moment, to an optional mechanic.

You know in the previous edition I remember it being said that Bushi were the dominate force of the game (Shugenja fell into a sortof middle ground between Courier and Warrior). Just about any decent samurai could one-shot almost anything they too a swing/shot at and it was possible to do so against multiple targets in a single round (if I recall correctly there was a build that could get up to 5 attacks in a round, think it was the Mirumoto Bushi).

And while the current edition has been praised well on, most of the changes it enacted where aimed at shiving the Bushi and Courier characters, rather than any genuine improvement.

Bushi needs good weapons, the Edition nerfed all weapons short of the Katana.

Bushi needs useful combat options, the edition nerfed most of the options in some form or another (Increase Damage Maneuver got the worst of it).

Non-Shugenja in general need good Skills, the Edition neutered both Skills and Skill Emphasis and made it too easy to ignore Skills altogether (there used to be lots of penalties involved).

...Come to think of it Kata and Advantages in general got hit hard too (currently most Kata aren't worth the time or effort, and its often enough said that the best non-courier characters have no Advantages...and most of the courier ones are Allies)...

bah, At the end of the day the New Devs have got to figure out what kind of game they want to make and balance it on that assumption (and not in the whole "they're meant to be unbalanced nonsense").

Personally I'd start fixing Skills and work from there.

Honestly, regarding shugenja, I have been wondering if it might not be better to reduce the importance of "spells", as they function in the rpg at the moment, to an optional mechanic.

....So you want to screw the Phoenix Clan even more than the Old Devs, that just mean spirited. Next you'll be saying that Ninja gotta go, and ye` know the Scorpion Clan gets around ninjas.

FFG has done [reasonably] well on its rpgs over the years, but their version isn't going to be 4.5. It also won't be 3.5.

To be fair, just about everyone knows that its likely going to be a Star Wars type-game ('Special' dice; a vary 'Narrative System'; with books dividing basic clans/character archetypes/etc. into different books requiring multiple purchases to get the 'full' game.). Its going to be about a year before we all hear anything concrete on the subject so all we are doing now is just passing time...placing hopes...complaining (the usual).

Oh and trying to keep the this part of the forum from turning into a graveyard for the next 6-12 months.

Frankly if they do go that route I'm likely not the only one that is going to seek out alternatives for playing in Rokugan (as I cant stand Fantasy Flights Star Wars RPG system), and sometimes those kind of projects start in neglected forums like this.

To be fair, just about everyone knows that its likely going to be a Star Wars type-game ('Special' dice; a vary 'Narrative System'; with books dividing basic clans/character archetypes/etc. into different books requiring multiple purchases to get the 'full' game.).

Actually, I highly doubt that this will happen. They had the chance to do this with the Warhammer 40k RPG too, and they stuck with the old system so hard the newest system (Dark Heresy 2nd Edition) was barely more than a re-themed version of the previous one (Only War). In fact, they murdered a viable (if somewhat imperfect) beta that introduced many cool and new ideas (RIP in pieces Talent Trees...).

Which I don't think would be a bad thing to do. I can easily imagine a couple different paths to take a character, but with clan specific options at different intervals.

How is the basic star wars system? Are there skills and attributes as well as talents? I'm imagining talents as little packages that increase options with the occasional built in stat bump rather than them being the main way you build your character. Am I close here?

Hmmm. If they do put the game on an entirely different core mechanic I'll take a very hard look at it, consider - but R&K is a very good core mechanic, and one that fits the background really well. I think that the mechanics are very important and should match the background - the best RPGs do exactly that. The way the dice play out, the things that the mechanics make happen match up with the background and player expectations. R&K makes the system somewhat reliable and not too swingy when the character is reliable, but always leaves a window for chance. It rewards balanced builds, but allows other options as well. A new system would have to do at least as well, and D20 at least failed massively. Wait and see.

This also ties in closely with using RP-restrictions to balance mechanics: In my experience it just does not work. Either it becomes a trivial chore the character just has to go through (and then continues to pwn unabated) or it's a big deal, but then it either feels like GM capriciousness or the entire party gets roped into dealing with it (since they want their OP Shugenja at their most powerful in the end).

Skills need a leg up, definitely do. They were nerfed in three different way in 4E, all for valid reasons individually, but collectively it's just too much:

- Emphases were nerfed from +1 per rank to re-rolling 1s, which is mechanically awesome and far more interesting, but also means it's far stronger at low ranks and does not really scale (so the benefit at high skill/Trait is not much greater than at the lower ranks)

- Raise cap reverted back to Void only, not skill-rank. And while, again, this is probably a good choice since 3E had no relevant Raise cap to speak off, this is another nerf especially for specialist builds who now NEED high Void so they can fully utilize their strongest skills (which kinda defeats the point of a specialist build)

- Many, many mastery abilities were cut for the sake of simplification. And this one I actually disagree with. Simplification and ease of use were a big goal for 4E, but I think AEG's design team overshot in some areas, and this is one of them.

I think some skills (MEDICINE!) need new specific mastery abilties, but even this small change to generic mastery abilties:

Rank 3: +1 Insight

Rank 5: You may call one additional Raise (call, it's not free) on rolls with this skill

Rank 7: +3 Insight

Rank 10: Same free Raise as before, this time it actually replaces the Rank 5 benefit (so you get that one Raise for free instead of having to call it)

Would help a lot, I'd say. Especially that Rank 5 bit. As one poster said, work out skills (and Traits to some extent), so basically fix the core mechanic, and re-evaluate from that basis before touching other areas of balance...that alone will probably affect balance quite a bit.

And yeah, back when additional attacks were uncapped the sheer damage output of bushi was ridiculous and the design REALLY unhealthy, but in some ways, it didn't really matter - even with 4E, once one gets to IR 5-6 the game just stops working. There are, by then, too many broken options. 1-4 is where most of the play happens, and getting that area to work (and possibly extending it) is far more important than working out high level play to me.

I have found that rp restrictions are never a reliable balance point for mechanical advantage.

The best answer I've ever seen for playing charecters of wildly different in game power levels comes from FATE, and dresden files specifically. Weaker characters are given a meta currency to use so that the PLAYERS can use them to affect the story (I need the guard to be drowsy so I can sneak in, spend a meta point and this becomes true).

Yet, the whole game is based around roleplay restrictions... I don't see how my suggestion isn't a good way. Of course, I wouldn't include my idea as a core system, but as an optional, which I would include, just like most optional rules. Yet was it a roleplay restriction? In my opinion, it's more a roleplay enforcer, because most Shugenja players tend to forget about their duty as a Shugenja, I have just included them in the system that I've said.

Also, nobody complains about the roleplay restrictions of a paladin is D&D, yet, a lot of people actually enjoy playing them. Do we always have to lower the bars? To me, roleplay restrictions are part of the game and, as I've said at the begining of that post, the whole game has roleplay restrictions. The whole Free/Simple/Complex actions are a roleplay restriction, because you could have a character having 10 in all their Rings and another having 2 in all their Rings, none of them, without techniques, will be able to go around that restriction. That's mechanical restriction, yeah. Now more obvious a roleplay restriction, Honor. At some point, a character may be forced to commit sepukku based on his dishonorable actions. If that's not a roleplay restriction, I don't know what it's called. I mean, forcing a character to die in reaction of an action... It's a restriction. Of course, he could go rebel, but I highly doubt he would go very far anyway. Yeah, ok, it's not for a balance point, but it's a roleplay restriction.

I'll be honest, I never had any balance problems with my Shugenja, because I, as a Storyteller, guide them into their choice of spells. So, balancing also comes from the Storyteller, at some point, the Shugenja shouldn't have all the answers. And let's not forget one important rule: "If the players can do it, the Storyteller also can and even more." My players know that I will not restrain myself if they go over the top and they all enjoy a balanced game, also knowing that I will place them in a situation where they will have to use their weak spot. Min/Max players usually hate my games because they cannot do anything and new players, I help them, teach them and guide them. Which results that they are enjoying a lot my game.

Also, I would like to point out that weaker characters doesn't need some kind of meta currency to affect the story, trust me on that. In fact, sometime the Storyteller shall use common sense. If a solution to a problem seems fairly good and chances of failure are almost none, why should we rely on dice rolling? That's something that I'm seeing too much and my players tend to have that bad reflex.

For example, I sent my players in a room with a hidden door under a bed, a player said to the others: "I'll look under the bed. Player A, look under and behind the the first dresser. Player B, look under and behind the second dresser and Player C, look behind the mirror.", they all picked up their dice... I honestly told them: "No need to roll anything." So yeah, I feel it's a bad reflex to always roll dice.

By not rolling, you give the chance to everyone, including the weakest character, to affect the story. No need for some kind of "Meta currency". Then, it's also the job of the Storyteller to place them in a winning situation. In my opinion, there's not really a weak character, but there's weak players. Which is why I said earlier: "Do we always have to lower the bars?" A strong player will accept all roleplay challenges, while a weak one will refuses and whines. In order to get better, the bar shall be raised.

The same goes with Shugenja, they are strong character, depending on their spells, but place them in situations where they cannot count on their spells, you'll see how weak the Shugenja may be. Place them in a imperial court or even in a winter court as a representative, you'll see that Shugenja struggle because he cannot count on his spells or may face dishonnor.

It's almost why I prefer giving some roleplay restrictions with an objectif of saying to the Shugenja: "Look, that's the kind of character you picked and it's your duty to perform those task." Of course, we should simply just give them honor loss for not performing their duty as Shugenja. Also, I'll admit that when I wrote the idea, I was thinking about the way Werewolf the Apocalypse deals with spirit relations, where they can have Spirit Notoriety if they don't respect their ends of the bargain.

Also, I prefer suggesting stuffs, then simply whine about it.