Edit: Here is what I believe to be the most promising list from this thread:

"Redline" (27)
Electronic Baffle (1)
Extra Munitions (2)
Concussion Missiles (4)
Long-Range Scanners (0)

"Quickdraw" (29)
Draw Their Fire (1)
Fire-Control System (2)
Special Ops Training (0)

Colonel Vessery (35)
Crack Shot (1)
TIE/x7 (-2)

Total: 100
View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Some room for changes in different loadouts, but the basis of Redline, Quickdraw and an x7 Defender looks solid.

I have been thinking about the old Punisher king. He lost the Cluster Missiles and hasn't been seen since, but is he really dependant on them?

"Redline" (27)
Collision Detector (0)
Extra Munitions (2)
Proton Torpedoes (4)
Long-Range Scanners (0)

Thats pretty cheap. Paired with some lategame this could be usefull in some lists. The Proton Torp should probably just be a Plasma, since you probably will have focus anyways. Concussion Missiles for the same price might be even smarter. Fun list idea:

"Redline" (27)
Collision Detector (0)
Extra Munitions (2)
Concussion Missiles (4)
Long-Range Scanners (0)

Colonel Vessery (35)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Stealth Device (3)
TIE/x7 (-2)

"Backdraft" (27)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Fire-Control System (2)
Special Ops Training (0)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

VI Vessery is a no-brainer, Backdraft is joy. However this doesn't quite look competetive, because there is no Palp. The question remains wether or not he is worth it I can't answer. He is able to help squeeze another turn out of Redlines fragile profile. He does however board another one agility ship.

"Redline" (27)
Collision Detector (0)
Extra Munitions (2)
Concussion Missiles (4)
Long-Range Scanners (0)

Colonel Vessery (35)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Stealth Device (3)
TIE/x7 (-2)

Omicron Group Pilot (21)
Emperor Palpatine (8)

Total: 99

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

One point for E-Baffle on the Shuttle. Another idea is inserting him into the 3 Crackshot Defender list for easier Vessery procs and more alpha strike at higher PS.

"Redline" (27)
Collision Detector (0)
Extra Munitions (2)
Concussion Missiles (4)
Long-Range Scanners (0)

Colonel Vessery (35)
Crack Shot (1)
TIE/x7 (-2)

Countess Ryad (34)
Crack Shot (1)
TIE/x7 (-2)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Maybe taking VI from Vessery is not the best idea. He can probably live without Crackshot, too.

Do any of these lists look appealing? I'd sure love to have the old sledgehammer back on the table. The last list is probably my favourite for now.

I like your last list a lot, though I'm holding G out for the Tie Striker to see what exactly Lightened Frame is before I try using Redline again. The upgrade looks like it lets you roll extra green Dice, with the caveat that you can't mod them. I think that's fine as you'd normally only be rolling 1 green anyway.

I don't know, I think LRS is too crucial for him to work to consider another mod. The TIE Striker at its cheap price might make different lists possible, though, its an expansion to look forward to.

Redline with only one set of Torpedoes? Redline with LRS? Redline without FCS? With that setup you might as well take a Scimitar Squadron Pilot and save yourself 11 points.

LRS is for helping lower PS ships get double mods on the first attack. Redline is PS7 and doesn't need it: he'll get the same benefit from GC.

Even if you're set on only giving him one set of ordnance (which for a Punisher really isn't what he wants) then this is a far stronger setup:

"Redline" (27)
Fire Control System (2)
Extra Munitions (2)
Proton Torpedoes (4)

Guidance Chips (0)

Even then I'd be inclined to use a few more of his slots: swap out the Proton for Concussion and you've got a free slot for Seismic Torpedoes or Flechette Torpedoes.

TIE punishers favour maximisation: you take their hefty action bar and you use it to make a toolkit. You at least give them four shots instead of two, else why are you using a TIE punisher in the first place? If you're just looking for a raw damage alpha strike ship with a minimal weapons loadout you're probably better off with a TIE bomber or even Quickdraw.

I can't remember the last time a Punisher survived for more than two shots, thats why I am inclined to go with a lean build. I also don't consider 7 high PS, but thats meta-dependant.

Why no FCS? Well, FCS used to be there for the Cluster MIssiles. It doesn't help with the initial shot, which is the most important one. Concerning damage the builds are virtually identical with only the slightest of advantages for the Concussion-LRS version that one might consider to be outweighed by the tendency for more crits on the PT side. FCS is really good if you expect to live for more than one torpedoe shot, otherwise its 2 points that won't do much.

The Scimitar question is one that has to be asked. I would theorize that added durability and a lot more modification for the dice and PS that beats those ships that are likely to burst Redline down anyways make him worth it. The cheap TIE Bomber gets to reroll all of its dice and turn all focus results. Thats offense equivalent to PTL/Kyle Dash for one turn. Redline with LRS/Concussion gets to reroll all dice, change all focus and change one left over blank into a hit. PT/GC Redline gets to reroll all dice, change one blank or focus to a hit and change one focus into a crit. Crits can be worth more, but you are prone to double blankouts. Still, both are roughly equivalent to each other and superior to U-Boats and Homing MIssile Bombers.

I never play Punishers to have more upgrade slots, only for the unique pilot abilities, because that is where they are more usefull than Bombers.

Redline? More like Flatline.

(All I got, kbyeeeee)

I'm wondering if the theorized "Lightened Frame" modification could be a boon to him. He's not in desperate need of additional modification. Just a TL on a regular Proton Torpedo has pretty good average damage. If he had the hypothetical "+1 AGI when there are more attack dice than defense dice", he would have just about a permanent +1 AGI, which on a 9 hit point ship is not a joke.

If that mod is too expensive, I'm not sure that Clusters isn't still the way to go. You only get to re-roll one attack instead of two, but you still get a Focus or Guidance Chips (depending on LRS/Chips). That's two modified 3-dice attacks.

Either way, I think the biggest obstacle is that Quickdraw is a better alpha strikers right now. So what if you combined the two?

The base builds would be:

Quickdraw, Draw Their Fire, FCS = 32

Redline, 4 point warhead of choice, Extra Munitions = 33

Depending on your 3rd ship you could add more. Redline could grab a bomb or another warhead and/or a system. Quickdraw should help Redline make it to the mid game where squads are less aligned and he can get a measure of survivability, but is Redline's ability enough to make that work?

Well, the obvious third ship there would be (Crackshot) Vessery, right? Would leave one point for E-Baffle on Redline so he can k-turn and continue the barrage immediatly.

I think I might like Omega Leader over Vessery, here. Although Vessery is a good choice. He needs to be VI, though, right? So he can shoot before Redline? With OL, you've got 8 more points to put into the other two. You could put Concussion Missiles and Guidance Chips on Quickdraw to enhance your alpha strike, then (brainstorming) Connor Net and Electronic Baffles on Redline.

Redline 27, Electronic Baffles 1, Proton Torpedo 4, Conor Net 4, EM 2, Chips/LRS 0 = 38

Quickdraw 29, Draw Their Fire 1, FCS 2, Concussion Missiles 4, Guidance Chips 0 = 36

Omega Leader 21, Juke 2, Comm Relay 3 = 26

100 points

With Baffles/Connor Net, you can keep people on their toes, so there's not one good set of moves to avoid his missile. Quickdraw helps keep Redline alive, and Omega Leader does Omega Leader things. I don't know, I almost feel like Deathrain would be better here. Maybe your Vessery option is the way to go.

With Vessery you are able to eliminate a Jumpmaster in one turn. Not always (the opponent needs to attack Quickdraw or roll a crit for it to be possible at all). but it isn't impossible and can realisticaly happen.

While running more first order ships speaks to me (in fact I could run the squad you posted entirely in that scheme with my FO Punisher) I'd say you can get away with Crackshot Vessery since you were using DTF/FCS Quickdraw. Bringing Redline up 38 points doesn't seem like a good idea in todays meta. And yes, I think you have a nice squad for Deathrain there (my favourite build is 37 points). I think I would run this:

"Deathrain" (26)
Accuracy Corrector (3)
Extra Munitions (2)
Conner Net (4)
Seismic Charges (2)

"Quickdraw" (29)
Draw Their Fire (1)
Fire-Control System (2)
Homing Missiles (5)
Guidance Chips (0)
Special Ops Training (0)

"Omega Leader" (21)
Juke (2)
Comm Relay (3)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

37 points on QD might be a bit extreme, but the Homing Missile bites even more than a Concussion.

But well, thats Deathrain. I think I am pretty happy with the QD/Redline/Vessery squadron for now. I will give it some table time for sure, might beat the double Bomber + lategame (and a Crackshot TIE) list I have been using for the empire for a while now.

This is what I always fly:Massassi Squadron:

Darth Vader + Squadron Leader+Hull Upgrade

Redline+Accruracy Corrector+Extra Munotions+Concussion Missiles+Cluster Missiles +Cluster Mines+Seismic Charges+Shield Upgrade

Night Beast+Twin Ion engine Mk.2

I usually split them up, using Darth Vader and Redline together on one side and Night Beast on the other. Night Beast is there to split the opponents forces and cover DV and Redline's back if something goes wrong.

DV and is there to give a much needed focus to Redline So he can attack even more efficientley or defend better, Darth Vader gets an evade from himself. Redline punches holes and he and DV are fast enough to eliminate opponents to help the hoplessly outmatched TIE Fighter with Night Beast. Night Beast actually is pretty good at surviving because he often can get an evade and a focus to defend the same round.

What can go wrong?:

1)Night Beast dies: not that important.

2) Darth Vader dies: very unlikely, he has a lot of shields and hull and can give himself a focus and an evade token in the worst case.Besides that everyone will target Redline first.

3) Redline dies: DV will use his double action to give himself a focus and an evade token always.

4) Redline runs out of payload: what does he have an accuracy corrector for?

5) Redline is hunted by a more agile oponent: ...He's nervous, but on the surface he looks calm and ready to DROP BOMBS,

cuz' they keep on forgetting all his loadout

he needs a timeout but their guns go loud,

he knows what it's 'bout, he clicks the bombs come out,

he's rescued now,-evading? they don't know how

the clock's run out, time's up, over, blaow!

snap back to reality. Oh, there goes gravity

oh, now they're havin' it, they're dead,

he's so glad, that he had that bomb ready

[...]

he'd better loose himself in the bombin',the moment

he'd better never let it go:

he only got one shot, did not miss his chance to blow,

opportunity is once in a flighttime

YariSamurai

I have been thinking about the old Punisher king.

but this thread isn't about Deathrain?

I have been thinking about the old Punisher king.

but this thread isn't about Deathrain?

Hey, you wanted to go with Redline for your Deathrain SC win, but didn't have the GCs, yet

I have been thinking about the old Punisher king.

but this thread isn't about Deathrain?

Hey, you wanted to go with Redline for your Deathrain SC win, but didn't have the GCs, yet

sure, but then I realized that Deathrain dont need no GCs

Not sure if Vessery is best third ship. Basically Redline and Quickdraw would do fast damage and die. You need an endgame ship and Vessery is not much without his friends. Lone Wolf x7 Ryad with MK.II perhaps?

Not sure if Vessery is best third ship. Basically Redline and Quickdraw would do fast damage and die. You need an endgame ship and Vessery is not much without his friends. Lone Wolf x7 Ryad with MK.II perhaps?

So:

"Redline" (27)

Electronic Baffle (1)

Extra Munitions (2)

Concussion Missiles (4)

Long-Range Scanners (0)

"Quickdraw" (29)

Draw Their Fire (1)

Fire-Control System (2)

Special Ops Training (0)

Countess Ryad (34)

Lone Wolf (2)

TIE/x7 (-2)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Yes, that would be another interesting option that doesn't rely on Quickdraws FCS too much. It weakens the initial punch a teeny tiny bit. The elite talent also isn't set in stone, there are arguments for Crackshot, for Juke (since she is shooting last) and for Lone Wolf. The latter has the best late game value, but it makes the early game more of a headache and has bad synergy with DTF Quickdraw. Who of course, now that there is no more Vessery to benefit from the FCS, could also be Rage/E-Baffle now that I think about it. I think with this Quickdraw build I would prefer Juke. I think both versions deserve some playtime. I can't really say which I like better.

After all, Vessery still is an x7 Defender, that alone makes for a nice lategame ship.

Why no FCS? Well, FCS used to be there for the Cluster MIssiles. It doesn't help with the initial shot, which is the most important one. Concerning damage the builds are virtually identical with only the slightest of advantages for the Concussion-LRS version that one might consider to be outweighed by the tendency for more crits on the PT side. FCS is really good if you expect to live for more than one torpedoe shot, otherwise its 2 points that won't do much.

Because of Redline's ability. Using LRS you get two target locks against the same target, both of which are used to fire the missiles. Using Redline's ability with FCS and GC you get four, two of which can be used for normal modification. Use all of Redline's mods on the first shot and LRS will hamper you from getting a second.

Redline isn't worth it as an alpha striker: you might as well use Quickdraw Rage Baffle for that for two fully modded three or four die shots. His ability allows him to maintain high levels of dice modification on later shots. You'd be better off taking a bomber and saving yourself 11 points: that's almost another ship.

In reality (using good Bomber builds with whom I am very familiar) its only a 6-7 point increase in price. I am okay with that. I apreciate your input, but I somewhat doubt you have much experience to back up claims like "Redline needs more than two warheads", "LRS is a bad idea on him". I don't believe anyone has tried LRS on him, or a lean, not almost 40 points build.

I added E-Baffle to the build to lessen the impact of LRSs downside. Now the strategy is to lay down one 4 hit attack, then move and possibly boost to be beyond the enemy (unexpectedly, because who would expect that this thing really moves), then k-turn and do it again. Or in the ideal scenario kill one enemy on the first turn, then move on to the next one.

You are right that Quickdraw is a better alpha striker, like Biophysical said. Therefor she now is part of the list, using the DTF build to tank up everyone around her. That build uses FCS and therefor enables Vessery as the third member of this list who has good lategame. If he is underwhelming, he will be replaced by the Countess.

Redline hasn't been tried since wave 8 brought scouts. I believe that he can work when he is toned down to a scout equivalent level of points, since he can aid in trading with them one for one and has a stronger offense.

Okay, I tried the list and it was pretty good. I lost against BB-8 PTL Poe and Rey, because Poe was able to block Vessery for 6 turns of attacks lategame when he was down to one hull. Poe had Black One, so Redline was hardcountered, but he pulled some shots anyways and allowed Quickdraw to perform an attack in the process. Quickdraw fought valiantly and took Rey with her. Then Vessery couldn't pull it late game, but I don't think Riad would have fared much better with all the mitigation Poe had (Sensor Cluster, ability, constant range 3 because of boosting). A bit sad that Redline was so hard countered on his first day out, but the game didn't detroy my confidence in him.

I'd like the list if I wasn't vehemently against buying another dump for Vets/SF.

You need an endgame ship...

Okay, I tried the list and it was pretty good. I lost against BB-8 PTL Poe and Rey, because Poe was able to block Vessery for 6 turns of attacks lategame when he was down to one hull. Poe had Black One, so Redline was hardcountered, but he pulled some shots anyways and allowed Quickdraw to perform an attack in the process. Quickdraw fought valiantly and took Rey with her. Then Vessery couldn't pull it late game, but I don't think Riad would have fared much better with all the mitigation Poe had (Sensor Cluster, ability, constant range 3 because of boosting). A bit sad that Redline was so hard countered on his first day out, but the game didn't detroy my confidence in him.

I feel this is where OL really shines. Even if you super OL (add Stealth Device) you only clock in at 29 points, which gives you 4 points over a naked x7 Vessery.

This, of course, is only based on one game, and you should probably give the list a bit more table time before making any major changes to the list. I feel that even with everything that has come out, Omega Leader is still a very scary late game ship to be facing, and because QD and RL would be focused early due to higher damage output, it may be worthwhile. Unfortunately, if you are looking at tournament lists, this one would probably not rank high up there. The end game you are looking at could last a while with OL, and even if you did manage to take the win in time, your MOV would be pretty low overall.

Still, It looks like a fun list, and something that would be worth trying out.

You need an endgame ship...

Okay, I tried the list and it was pretty good. I lost against BB-8 PTL Poe and Rey, because Poe was able to block Vessery for 6 turns of attacks lategame when he was down to one hull. Poe had Black One, so Redline was hardcountered, but he pulled some shots anyways and allowed Quickdraw to perform an attack in the process. Quickdraw fought valiantly and took Rey with her. Then Vessery couldn't pull it late game, but I don't think Riad would have fared much better with all the mitigation Poe had (Sensor Cluster, ability, constant range 3 because of boosting). A bit sad that Redline was so hard countered on his first day out, but the game didn't detroy my confidence in him.

I feel this is where OL really shines. Even if you super OL (add Stealth Device) you only clock in at 29 points, which gives you 4 points over a naked x7 Vessery.

This, of course, is only based on one game, and you should probably give the list a bit more table time before making any major changes to the list. I feel that even with everything that has come out, Omega Leader is still a very scary late game ship to be facing, and because QD and RL would be focused early due to higher damage output, it may be worthwhile. Unfortunately, if you are looking at tournament lists, this one would probably not rank high up there. The end game you are looking at could last a while with OL, and even if you did manage to take the win in time, your MOV would be pretty low overall.

Still, It looks like a fun list, and something that would be worth trying out.

True, and the change gives me room for PTL/Baffles Quickdraw, whom I like a lot. The old consideration that kept me from using OL was that the list in its old form was able to burst a U-Boat in one turn theoreticaly. Thats no longer neccessary. I am open to this change and I am inclined to try that version once it is sketched up.

Edit:

"Redline" (27)

Electronic Baffle (1)

Extra Munitions (2)

Concussion Missiles (4)

Long-Range Scanners (0)

"Quickdraw" (29)

Push the Limit (3)

Electronic Baffle (1)

Shield Upgrade (4)

Special Ops Training (0)

"Omega Leader" (21)

Juke (2)

Comm Relay (3)

Stealth Device (3)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

There we go, this one is up for my next game.