Title says it all. Gives up some ship killing power but is much stronger against squadron lists. Any suggestions?

Fleet Summary Page (391 of 400 pts) Faction: The Empire Commander: Admiral Ozzel (20 pts)

Flagship: (98 pts) Gladiator I-class Star Destroyer (56 pts)Demolisher (10 pts) Intel Officer (7 pts) Ordnance Experts (4 pts) Engine Techs (8 pts) Expanded Launchers (13 pts)

Fleet Ship 1: (60 pts) Raider I-class Corvette (44 pts) Impetuous (4 pts) Agent Kallus (3 pts) Ordnance Experts (4 pts) Assault Proton Torpedoes (5 pts)

Fleet Ship 2: (57 pts) Raider I-class Corvette (44 pts) Instigator (4 pts) Ordnance Experts (4 pts) Assault Proton Torpedoes (5 pts)

Fleet Ship 3: (35 pts) Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 pts) Admiral Montferrat (5 pts) Slicer Tools (7 pts)

Fleet Ship 4: (23 pts) Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 pts)

Squadrons (98 of 134 pts): 1x Darth Vader Tie Advanced Squadron (21 pts) 1x Sontir Fel Tie Interceptor Squadron (18 pts) 1x Punishing One - Dengar (20 pts) 1x Mauler Mithel Tie Fighter Squadron (15 pts) 2x Tie Advanced Squadron (24 pts)

That's a lot of points dedicated to fighters in a list with two Raiders. Both have got Ordnance experts, one's got Kallus, and you have five ships - I don't think you need that plus 98 points of fighter cover. If I were you, I'd pick one or the other and use the points to re-invest.

I'm toying with a similar fleet. I do think you need a fighter wing nowadays.

I love the TIE Adv+Mauler+Dengar combo. I'd switch to Screed if you a can make him fit because it guarantees so much damage with the APT Raiders.

I would make demo a glad two, I did this in my last competion fleet, it gives you the option to really take a full bomber list apart. If you last first you demo into a bomber ball that came to close, you can generally put 8 blue dice on it, with the two raider titles supporting, who needs fighters apart from a few ties to cover instigator.

While I do like the Glad two, for this list the Glad 1 is what I need, as I plan on keeping it out of the fray until the raiders and fighters clear out enemy bombers, and then Demo can go to work pouncing from ship to ship. 134 points in squads (especially rebels) is not uncommon in my meta, so I'd like to be able to take most of those out before starting an attack run.

No red dices worth talking about. It will be tough if you're facing MC30s or CR90s.

And I would definitely add something, at least a Comms Net to the second Gozanti. Otherwise it doesn't worth its price for one more activation only - in this fleet at least.

No red dices worth talking about. It will be tough if you're facing MC30s or CR90s.

And I would definitely add something, at least a Comms Net to the second Gozanti. Otherwise it doesn't worth its price for one more activation only - in this fleet at least.

I rarely use a fleet that throws mainly red dice, preferring to get in close with the enemy and navigating my approach to avoid dangerous arcs, it's why I've never flown Akbar, he just doesn't appeal to me. And the gozanti is much more than just an activation, it also serves to activate 2 squads (3 with a token), and comms net would hinder my ability to do that

I'm toying with a similar fleet. I do think you need a fighter wing nowadays.

I love the TIE Adv+Mauler+Dengar combo. I'd switch to Screed if you a can make him fit because it guarantees so much damage with the APT Raiders.

Definitely worth looking into how I could fit Screed into this fleet and keep a decent bid.

What are you going to do after I blow up Demolisher in one shot? Cry? Looks like it.

I do that regularly now.

I agree with ginkapo. Your list have NOTHING afther Demo death. And trus me he will die very often.

The core strengths, in my opinion, of Clontroper's build that really ratcheted up the DeMSU archetype were that the Demo hit hard enough to reliably kill anything with last/first; excessive number of activations meant he was almost guaranteed to move last; excessive bid meant he was almost guaranteed to go first; multiple strong follow-up threats; and an extremely points-efficient anti-squadron tactic (stiff-arm with Instigator until the carriers are dead).

Your list is weaker on or misses most of these points.

1) Reliably kill anything with last/first: a big part of the hitting power of the Clonisher Demo build is that you can reroll aggressively with OE and then fix bad rolls with Screed. Without Screed, you have to roll conservatively or accept less effective rerolls.

2) Excessive number of activations: five is no longer a particularly above-average number of activations, so you're likely to see meaningful threats that are backed by enough flotillas to match or exceed your own activation delays.

3) Excessive bid: 391 may get you first more often than not, but if your strategy is this heavily dependent on it, you want to be in the low to mid 380's most places I've seen if you want to get it most of the time.

4) Follow-up threats: without Screed, APT Raiders are fairly unreliable. And with only two of them, you're liable to get forked or alpha'd before Demo takes care of business, negating the rest of your threat.

5) Efficient squadron defense: your fleet will kill squadrons with extreme prejudice, which is great if you're facing bombers. But you've invested quite a bit of points into that ability that are leaving gaps in your killy-fighty ability. The premise of this fleet is to get in and kill ships in a very short time, minimizing the amount of time you need to delay the squadrons and therefore enabling you to take a very minimal squadron defense. What exactly that defense should look like I couldn't tell you, because I don't know.

5) Efficient squadron defense: your fleet will kill squadrons with extreme prejudice, which is great if you're facing bombers. But you've invested quite a bit of points into that ability that are leaving gaps in your killy-fighty ability. The premise of this fleet is to get in and kill ships in a very short time, minimizing the amount of time you need to delay the squadrons and therefore enabling you to take a very minimal squadron defense. What exactly that defense should look like I couldn't tell you, because I don't know.

Take Ginkapo's fleet, for example, which I flew against at the weekend. He brought 5 ships (Three MC30cs, a CR90 and a Transport) and only one squadron, Tycho. Suddenly all those points invested in fighters are winning you 16 points. Sure, your fighters can then turn on his ships, but none of them are designed to, and if Tycho is used effectively (which Ginkapo is famed for doing), he can tie up enough of them at any time to keep your squads at bay. On top of this, you've already got two Raiders kitted out to mess with your enemies' squadrons - in that list, you've effectively got 19 points designed to make the Raiders effective anti-squadron platforms.

My point is this: this fleet will win you the squadron battle, but if your opponent doesn't come to play one, you've got a problem. One option would be to turn that squadron setup into more of a Combat Air Patrol à la Biggs: one that is primarily designed to stop squadrons, but that can turn on ships more effectively, so has flexibility. Another would be to bring a Firespray setup: it can muck in to fight the squadron battle, tie up squads for a decent number of turns (they can take a serious beating can Firesprays), or focus on aggressive anti-ship attacks if the opponent goes squadron light (with the added bonus of being independent from the carriers with rogue). Another would be to fully invest in squadrons, whilst leaving less of the work to the Raiders. I'm not sure what the best option is - my feeling is that, in a fleet that is light on hitting power when it comes to capital ships, a more potent bomber threat might be useful, but I could easily be wrong.

I also agree with most of the above comments that Screed would be a better choice of admiral. Not always easy to get crits on a black dice, even with ordnance experts. For the Raiders to use those APTs effectively, I don't think you can rely on a re-roll, where Screed will guarantee that you land at least one powerful hit a turn.

Thanks for all the tips guys! Yes I am aware that I am light on the shop killing power, but between demo and the pair of raiders I should be able to corral some of the bigger ships with some good flying. And also I realize that this setup is very heavy into the squad game, but that is due to the fact that my meta right now is either Mc80/AF/Flotilla + 134 points in squads, or a rhymerball. This should be able to chew through both of those, and then allow demo to make unhindered attack runs. Definitely not my tournament list, but could potentially wreak havoc to most fleets I encounter right now.

Lastly idk why you guys think the squads will be THAT useless against ships, I mean I get that they're not bomber, but 4 out of 6 of them throw black anti-ship, and didn't a bunch of a-wings win worlds last year?

What are you going to do after I blow up Demolisher in one shot? Cry? Looks like it.

I do that regularly now.

I'm just saying, I have options...

If you downgrade your squads and upgrade a Gozanti to another APT Raider (with Screed) the list will definitely have more punch. 3 APT/OE raiders with screed are no joke.

However then you do have a much weaker squad set. (Basically a modification of Clon's idea with a slight upgrade in squads due to the flotilla being available.)

The beauty of the new Waves is how much balance/randomness is introduced to your opposing fleets now. I really never know what I'll be facing. I would say the only thing that is fleshing out in the meta is having at least one flotilla and a good number of squads. It doesn't happen 100% of the time, but very often.

What are you going to do after I blow up Demolisher in one shot? Cry? Looks like it.

I do that regularly now.

Laugh at you while you keep stroking yourself about a plastic spaceships game? Not take you seriously because you already take yourself more seriously than you should? Or I could show you my post that I made after I had figured out how to create a rebel ISD (MC30 Torp with EA and Ackbar) that was put up a few weeks before you started raving on about "YOUR" Ackbar star destroyers (I have a feeling you've already seen it)...

I'm just saying, I have options...

Cool story bro.

With a rhymer ball your opponent can just wait for demo to move towards engagement then suicide every bomber against it. Sure you win the trade, but they win the fight. Nothing has changed, your fleet is one dimensional.

This list type was perfected in wave II when heavy bomber lists werent so freqent or effective. Clon rebuilt his list after the Wave III announcement to switch two raiders for two gozanti and 6 tie bombers. The Raiders alone can take on enemy fighters, leaving him with a multiple threat of two raiders, demolisher and rhymerball. Multidimensional.

Thanks for all the tips guys! Yes I am aware that I am light on the shop killing power, but between demo and the pair of raiders I should be able to corral some of the bigger ships with some good flying. And also I realize that this setup is very heavy into the squad game, but that is due to the fact that my meta right now is either Mc80/AF/Flotilla + 134 points in squads, or a rhymerball. This should be able to chew through both of those, and then allow demo to make unhindered attack runs. Definitely not my tournament list, but could potentially wreak havoc to most fleets I encounter right now.

Lastly idk why you guys think the squads will be THAT useless against ships, I mean I get that they're not bomber, but 4 out of 6 of them throw black anti-ship, and didn't a bunch of a-wings win worlds last year?

Two things. Firstly, if this is your local meta, then I can see why you've designed the fleet this way (even if it wouldn't necessarily be my choice). The reason I made my comments was because you hadn't said that this was the case. It looked like you were asking for thoughts on a general list, with no specific context, so people took it at face value.

Secondly, personally I'm not saying that your squads will be useless at all: like you say, black non-bomber dice are perfectly decent at denting an enemy's hullzones if you've either won the squadron fight, or no squads have turned up. The point myself and others are trying to make is that you've spent a lot of points to win the squadron fight, but you're heavily reliant on Demolisher as your primary anti-ship threat. I think that's a bit risky - it feels like your putting all your eggs in one basket. Personally, I would want some other options - maybe a more anti-ship oriented fighter setup, or fewer squadrons and a Raider upgraded to a Gladiator.

The only real way to find out is to test it. You might find that this works for you, and if it does then great! But you asked for thoughts, so these are mine.